Confirmed with Link: The Ottawa Senators Sale - PART 2

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I also don't think it's as cut and dry as saying teachers get 2 months vacation and only work 190 days of the year.

I know of some teachers who work much more than the standard 37.5 hours a week and take home work regularly. Lots of planning and paperwork when it comes to educational professors

I've lived with two and they gave up a ton of their life outside of their actual attendance.

So many evenings lost while mine were free.

The one thing they did appreciate was their summers off, but the amount of winter evenings lost more than made up for that imo.

 

[GCK]

because there are all told some 1000,000 plus teachers (all told).. Have unions

there are al told about 20% of society working for the government and pseudo-governments. All have unions

they are smart enough to support one another.

and so when a teacher wants money, he/she gets it, or the 20% like her, will vote out any politician that objects...

Now since that politician is not spending his/her own money. Why the F care... give them what they want, get your 2 and more terms in office...and après nous la deluge. or is it la deluge... I don't care to look it up.

Until such a day as the remaining 80% of us unit...and deal with practicality. Be willing to endure strikes from the 20% to break them. Until such a time as we are willing to put up with a police strike and not become the wild wild west. And so we keep them out long enough to starve and then have them crawl back.. and so on.. The police go on strike as little as a week and all heck breaks loose... Politicians know this.. so , they give them what they want.

As others strike and cause mischief, damage and protest and blockades.. the police sit by... so again, politicians, not spending their own money. Concerned about 20% voting as a bloc..the rest of us getting mad at them... well, it becomes easier to acquiesce...

And so, less money to be spent elsewhere remember that 80 year old dying in a LTC... she is powerless next to the 22 year old RN and her 100,000 union brothers and sisters...

dealing with 35 year old,, grade 5 teacher Mrs. Johnson... well, she darn near has nuclear weapons behind her... good luck... it will be you blown to bits.

You didn’t really address the point that it is not either or.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

He certainly might be. DBC wants to wait to see who the new owner is and their direction but that might not fit with current management goals.

None of that makes any sense. It's clearly an excuse. He wants out but doesn't want to burn bridges.

 

[Beech]

You didn’t really address the point that it is not either or.

it is either/or

the tax pool is one fix chunk. It does not grow.

There is only a minor willingness for us to pay taxes... after that, goodbye politician.

So as salaries in unions/public sector grows so do benefits of which pensions are the biggest. And second biggest is "perks"...time off, minimum number of people working etc... that has meant that net cost have skyrocketed.

A friend who lives in Trois Riviers is involved in Quebec politics (Parti Quebecoise)... he filled me in one day.. essentially Canadian governments are drowning and will completely drown in responsibility for the public sector really soon...

and so money has to comer from somewhere. when you owe a teacher all sorts of days off. someone has to fill in. When you owe her a pension worthy of a CEO salary, that has to come from somewhere.

that somewhere is: everywhere else... hello cuts.

Please visit room 1704 and 1714 of the Cornwall hospital.. and look around
visit the emergency area of the Ottawa general campus.

come by, we can cycle through RiverSide south, Manotic and I can show you the state of the roads... We are 2-3 years away from being a 3rd world nation....Hello Markie Mark and your promise to fix roads.

Less money for everything also means less money for social services and other...

and since we have an 800 lb gorilla to contend with in the public sector... good luck... it becomes easier to let 80-year old grandma die in an LTC.. once dead, she does not vote, or go onstrike, or protest... and neither do her children or grandchildren,,,, unless they are public employees... in which case, they do cause mischief for added salary and perks and f*** you grandma.

 

[Beech]

I've lived with two and they gave up a ton of their life outside of their actual attendance.

So many evenings lost while mine were free.

The one thing they did appreciate was their summers off, but the amount of winter evenings lost more than made up for that imo.

if accurate and 195 days of work..a non teacher works 250 days.

that is 28% more.

meaning that for the 195 days that they work, they would have to work 7,5 hours plus 28%.. which is a further 2.1 hours a day... so a teacher works 7.5 hours. drives back and forth 1-2 hours.. then does 2.1 hours at home...... every day!!!!

and so a teacher has to work 9.6 hours a day, everyone of her 195 days. Or if you wish to combine, it would mean 48 hours a week.....every week.

Damn.... we should not be calling them Mr or Mrs X... it should be Saint X. And all for a measly 100 K.

Wahhh.. that Tim Hortons; employee who has a second job to feed her 2 kids.. does 60 hours a week for 50 K, both jobs...... Damn lazy in my opinion. No pension, no perks, no benefits... I bet she does nothing at home in the evening...

Saint Johnson, shame on me for calling her Mrs. Johnson... well, I will write Dougie and ask him to double their salaries. its the least I can do.

do you know hat they call personal development days at Tim Hortons?....missed salary days.. do it again and you will be fired day.

 

[GCK]

it is either/or

the tax pool is one fix chunk. It does not grow.

There is only a minor willingness for us to pay taxes... after that, goodbye politician.

So as salaries in unions/public sector grows so do benefits of which pensions are the biggest. And second biggest is "perks"...time off, minimum number of people working etc... that has meant that net cost have skyrocketed.

A friend who lives in Trois Riviers is involved in Quebec politics (Parti Quebecoise)... he filled me in one day.. essentially Canadian governments are drowning and will completely drown in responsibility for the public sector really soon...

and so money has to comer from somewhere. when you owe a teacher all sorts of days off. someone has to fill in. When you owe her a pension worthy of a CEO salary, that has to come from somewhere.

that somewhere is: everywhere else... hello cuts.

Please visit room 1704 and 1714 of the Cornwall hospital.. and look around
visit the emergency area of the Ottawa general campus.

come by, we can cycle through RiverSide south, Manotic and I can show you the state of the roads... We are 2-3 years away from being a 3rd world nation....Hello Markie Mark and your promise to fix roads.

Less money for everything also means less money for social services and other...

and since we have an 800 lb gorilla to contend with in the public sector... good luck... it becomes easier to let 80-year old grandma die in an LTC.. once dead, she does not vote, or go onstrike, or protest... and neither do her children or grandchildren,,,, unless they are public employees... in which case, they do cause mischief for added salary and perks and f*** you grandma.

The Feds find 13B for Volkswagen AND begin funding a Dental plan but troops in Latvia have to buy their own gear. It’s not a lack of money it’s choices.

If the city wants to put 300M into a rink it’s easily justifiable. Every event ticket no matter if it’s Disney On Ice, Concert or Sens game includes a transit charge giving the holder free transit to the event. Let’s call it 4 bucks a ticket. That “recoups” about 6M a year. Additionally the city provides a long term low interest loan which is repaid over 30-35 years via a separate ticket surcharge another 3M per year. 9M x35 years equals 315M.

Now the province can play as well by having the city waive development fees on the real estate play while backfilling the loss, especially if it’s the Kimmel’s.

The Feds could play by giving a sweet chunk of land at a bargain price if they want.

All of a sudden we see 500M+ in public funding and nobody bats an eye.

I also don't think it's as cut and dry as saying teachers get 2 months vacation and only work 190 days of the year.

I know of some teachers who work much more than the standard 37.5 hours a week and take home work regularly. Lots of planning and paperwork when it comes to educational professors

Lots of additional work outside the 7.5 hours for many professions.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Hmmm perhaps I am in my denial stage but I don't see a problem with an American kid waiting to see who the owner is for a Canadian franchise before commiting himself and his young family to 8 years of his prime. Especially to a franchise that has had ownership issues in the past couple of years, and wants to know that it's not going to be another clown show like a Melnyk/Neko Sparks ownership.

Also he is probably waiting on DJ Smith to get canned and that's held up by ownership.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Hmmm perhaps I am in my denial stage but I don't see a problem with an American kid waiting to see who the owner is for a Canadian franchise before commiting himself and his young family to 8 years of his prime. Especially to a franchise that has had ownership issues in the past couple of years, and wants to know that it's not going to be another clown shows like a Melnyk/Neko Sparks ownership.

Also he is probably waiting on DJ Smith to get canned and that's held up by ownership.

Wow an actual level-headed response to this news. Bravo.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

if accurate and 195 days of work..a non teacher works 250 days.

that is 28% more.

meaning that for the 195 days that they work, they would have to work 7,5 hours plus 28%.. which is a further 2.1 hours a day... so a teacher works 7.5 hours. drives back and forth 1-2 hours.. then does 2.1 hours at home...... every day!!!!

and so a teacher has to work 9.6 hours a day, everyone of her 195 days. Or if you wish to combine, it would mean 48 hours a week.....every week.

Damn.... we should not be calling them Mr or Mrs X... it should be Saint X. And all for a measly 100 K.

Wahhh.. that Tim Hortons; employee who has a second job to feed her 2 kids.. does 60 hours a week for 50 K, both jobs...... Damn lazy in my opinion. No pension, no perks, no benefits... I bet she does nothing at home in the evening...

Saint Johnson, shame on me for calling her Mrs. Johnson... well, I will write Dougie and ask him to double their salaries. its the least I can do.

do you know hat they call personal development days at Tim Hortons?....missed salary days.. do it again and you will be fired day.

All I was adding is that my anecdotal experience was not with teachers that mailed it in, fwiw. They basically saw it as a responsibility to work 10-12 hour days all winter, including some weekends (granted a few of those hours on the couch with TV on in background) because of their summers off.

And the stark contrast to the shit jobs like Tim Horton's is just not fair. Those jobs are the bottom of the barrel that I think everyone agrees are a sad state of affairs for anyone working in them. You're basically guaranteed to be in poverty.

All humans deserve a certain quality of life, but that's never going to happen, sadly. Government can't just fix it, and human nature tell us many (most) will take extra even if at the expense of their neighbors. Humans are selfish, it's why we're slowly killing our own species and it's already out of anyone's control.

 

[Beech]

The Feds find 13B for Volkswagen AND begin funding a Dental plan but troops in Latvia have to buy their own gear. It’s not a lack of money it’s choices.

If the city wants to put 300M into a rink it’s easily justifiable. Every event ticket no matter if it’s Disney On Ice, Concert or Sens game includes a transit charge giving the holder free transit to the event. Let’s call it 4 bucks a ticket. That “recoups” about 6M a year. Additionally the city provides a long term low interest loan which is repaid over 30-35 years via a separate ticket surcharge another 3M per year. 9M x35 years equals 315M.

Now the province can play as well by having the city waive development fees on the real estate play while backfilling the loss, especially if it’s the Kimmel’s.

The Feds could play by giving a sweet chunk of land at a bargain price if they want.

All of a sudden we see 500M+ in public funding and nobody bats an eye.


Lots of additional work outside the 7.5 hours for many professions.

for a hockey team.

now add the football team.. add the basketball team.. add baseball team and go through 5-10 other sports.

now add men/women and kids.

now add the arts, the sciences, other interests.

as you do... the net bill becomes massive.

waste on VW and troops in Latvia should have us upset, not be okay with "well they so f up over here, we need to let them F up over there".

if we continue to allow non essential spending. If we continue to allow uncontrollable growth in the public sector. If the government does not reign in salaries, numbers and perks.... we will drown.

RRS has approximately 100 KM of roads... all are the same age. began in 1997... they are now 25 -26 years old... that is the outer limit of paved roads. Pitting has begun, crack propagation has begun. 100 KMs at 1 million a km.... that is 100 million to fix...... there are 19,000 of us living here... ~ 10,000 are tax payers.

100,000,000 for 10,000 is 10,000 a person...... 10 K..... all the while the sewers are 26 years old. The sidewalks are low grade concrete and are deteriorating. Electrical posts, installations, hydro, gas, water.. all are nearing an end of life... so another 100,000,000... that puts the bill at $20,000.

and then we have to pay 100 K for the teacher at the local school, set aside 50 K for her pension and so on...

and we want to spend 400 Million on a hockey team, so that Brady T. goes from 8 Million to 10 M on his next contract... Ohh, come by, we can walk homes just north of Earl Armstrong and South of Shoreline... geriatric heaven.. average age is probably 75... How many will flood the LTC and health care... that tsunami is coming.

come by, I can take you to the neighboring rec center. You can see the deteriorating light posts... excess salt.. The near 20% patched up parking lot/access roads.... In fact, let me take you to the community mail box.. which looks like it came back from Kiev after a night of Russian bombing...

 

[Flamingo]

sorry about your loses as well.

we have lost our way and have distorted priorities. Many will end up in rooms 1704 and 1714 at the Cornwall hospital, or the emergency rooms at the Ottawa general, or the second floor at the Ottawa general oncology department.. when they do, it will be interesting to see if spending to the cap has meaning!!!! or what act comes to town or if a buck a beer is worth it.

Buck a beer, and cash-clinics to save the day. Short-change nurses and keep Ontario medical funding in the kitty.

Hutchings: Hospitals in crisis — through the eyes of an Ottawa patient

Patients were constantly moved in and out; commodes and wheelchairs were often not located. The nursing staff was visibly exhausted.

ottawacitizen.com

 

[Beech]

All I was adding is that my anecdotal experience was not with teachers that mailed it in, fwiw. They basically saw it as a responsibility to work 10-12 hour days all winter, including some weekends (granted a few of those hours on the couch with TV on in background) because of their summers off.

And the stark contrast to the shit jobs like Tim Horton's is just not fair. Those jobs are the bottom of the barrel that I think everyone agrees are a sad state of affairs for anyone working in them. You're basically guaranteed to be in poverty.

All humans deserve a certain quality of life, but that's never going to happen, sadly. Government can't just fix it, and human nature tell us many (most) will take extra even if at the expense of their neighbors. Humans are selfish, it's why we're slowly killing our own species and it's already out of anyone's control.

teachers are noble. My cousin is one. I love her dearly.

But the public sector is now officially out of control. Costs in that sector cannot continue to spiral upwards.

a 100 K a year teacher also means a 50 K a year pension. That is insane. A net cost of a teacher of around 150 K a year. means 100 tax payers have to pay 1.5 K each... 100:1 !!!!!!

now add nurses, police, fire, civic workers, admin, public sector, maintenance, other... you cannot ask every 100 people to shell out 30-40 K just to support 20 people. The system breaks.
and the irony is: you are asking that TIM Hortons employee to pay the 30-40K... how? since he cannot, his portion of the 30-40 K get transferred onto another... now you risk over taxing others and stagnating the economy which kills jobs....

a flattening out of salaries, perks, pensions is needed.

we need to stop paying teachers 100 K, stop paying 500 M for hockey arenas and figure out how to make a dying persons life easier in a hospital... I know, I lived it as my wife died.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

teachers are noble. My cousin is one. I love her dearly.

But the public sector is now officially out of control. Costs in that sector cannot continue to spiral upwards.

a 100 K a year teacher also means a 50 K a year pension. That is insane. A net cost of a teacher of around 150 K a year. means 100 tax payers have to pay 1.5 K each... 100:1 !!!!!!

now add nurses, police, fire, civic workers, admin, public sector, maintenance, other... you cannot ask every 100 people to shell out 30-40 K just to support 20 people. The system breaks.
and the irony is: you are asking that TIM Hortons employee to pay the 30-40K... how? since he cannot, his portion of the 30-40 K get transferred onto another... now you risk over taxing others and stagnating the economy which kills jobs....

a flattening out of salaries, perks, pensions is needed.

we need to stop paying teachers 100 K, stop paying 500 M for hockey arenas and figure out how to make a dying persons life easier in a hospital... I know, I lived it as my wife died.

I'm sorry to hear that. I can empathize. My mom passed from Liver Cancer recently and it was an absolute gong show for health care and just not what you want to see for someone you care about so much and gave so much to society.

I don't even know where to go with this. I've just sort of given up hope for change or for better, regardless of the issue. Humans are just f***ed and the Earth isn't going to give us much longer anyways.

 

[BankStreetParade]

teachers are noble. My cousin is one. I love her dearly.

But the public sector is now officially out of control. Costs in that sector cannot continue to spiral upwards.

a 100 K a year teacher also means a 50 K a year pension. That is insane. A net cost of a teacher of around 150 K a year. means 100 tax payers have to pay 1.5 K each... 100:1 !!!!!!

now add nurses, police, fire, civic workers, admin, public sector, maintenance, other... you cannot ask every 100 people to shell out 30-40 K just to support 20 people. The system breaks.
and the irony is: you are asking that TIM Hortons employee to pay the 30-40K... how? since he cannot, his portion of the 30-40 K get transferred onto another... now you risk over taxing others and stagnating the economy which kills jobs....

a flattening out of salaries, perks, pensions is needed.

we need to stop paying teachers 100 K, stop paying 500 M for hockey arenas and figure out how to make a dying persons life easier in a hospital... I know, I lived it as my wife died.

That's not how any of that math works.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Supporting public investment in a project that kick starts a redevelopment of a barren wasteland does not mean there is less money for social programs. This either or argument is fiction. There has been massive increases in healthcare and education. The problems start when an elementary teacher at 10 years of service is making 105K for 195 days of work.

LOL @ this take. I could write a 10000 word essay about this one sentence and how many ways it's wrong.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I also don't think it's as cut and dry as saying teachers get 2 months vacation and only work 190 days of the year.

I know of some teachers who work much more than the standard 37.5 hours a week and take home work regularly. Lots of planning and paperwork when it comes to educational professors

Most still work to rule…

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

This thread man wow

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I personally want people educating our children to be well paid professionals, just like I want labour unions to continue to push salaries and benefits upwards for regular working folk.

Could we give a f*** about private sector professional and business folk salaries that always seem to get a pass when the rabble wants to complain about earnings? of course not. Imagine being at each others throats over 100k in these times.

Crabs in a bucket as always, we never learn.

Only thing I can chip in on this conversation is that for various personal reasons, my wife and I decided to send our son to private school for grades 7 and 8. He was in an OCDSB school for k-6 and now again in grade 9.

The private school teachers were non-unionized and (I was told) paid less than their public school counterparts.

But the difference in their attitude and commitment to the kids was astounding. Dramatically better.

Now that he’s back in the public school system all my son ever talks about is how bad the school is and how many of his teachers “don’t care” or “have given up”.

Why would private school teachers be so much more committed than their unionized counterparts? The reasons are obvious and any person who’s lived in the real world can spell them out instantly.

 

[GCK]

LOL @ this take. I could write a 10000 word essay about this one sentence and how many ways it's wrong.

It’s not wrong when a technologist with a Science degree working nights, evenings and weekends in a hospital makes 85K without summers off. Face it Grade 1 and 2 teachers are glorified babysitters.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Only thing I can chip in on this conversation is that for various personal reasons, my wife and I decided to send our son to private school for grades 7 and 8. He was in an OCDSB school for k-6 and now again in grade 9.

The private school teachers were non-unionized and (I was told) paid less than their public school counterparts.

But the difference in their attitude and commitment to the kids was astounding. Dramatically better.

Now that he’s back in the public school system all my son ever talks about is how bad the school is and how many of his teachers “don’t care” or “have given up”.

Why would private school teachers be so much more committed than their unionized counterparts? The reasons are obvious and any person who’s lived in the real world can spell them out instantly.

Well, they get paid worse usually and can be fired if they don’t keep the business going.

I have worked in both systems In my past.

I will say that teachers is a polarizing issue, like all public unions, because the government spend a lot of time and money publicly shitting on them every time there is a negotiation, and so that’s what many people read, hear, and believe.

I know a lot of teachers who work their hearts out for the kids in their classes while having to deal with that shit.

Add in the marking and the planning, and the coaching, and it makes for more of a calling than a money making venture some feel it is.

Private schools typically don’t have any special needs or behaviour issues in their classrooms, and so don’t have to try and manage those kids year after year while also teachings your and my kids, and enjoying themselves in their profession.

Anyways, this is an argument that I want to get too deep into, but imagine if the public system was equally funded….

 

[Micklebot]

Well, they get paid worse usually and can be fired if they don’t keep the business going.

I have worked in both systems In my past.

I will say that teachers is a polarizing issue, like all public unions, because the government spend a lot of time and money publicly shitting on them every time there is a negotiation, and so that’s what many people read, hear, and believe.

I know a lot of teachers who work their hearts out for the kids in their classes while having to deal with that shit.

Add in the marking and the planning, and the coaching, and it makes for more of a calling than a money making venture some feel it is.

Private schools typically don’t have any special needs or behaviour issues in their classrooms, and so don’t have to try and manage those kids year after year while also teachings your and my kids, and enjoying themselves in their profession.

Anyways, this is an argument that I want to get too deep into, but imagine if the public system was equally funded….

Smaller class sizes with less problematic kids (since they can kick them out much more easily) was going to be my guess. Possibly a better work life balance (do private school teachers do as much unpaid overtime, I saw a study years ago that suggested the average work week in public schools was 50 hrs).

Seems to me that given the discrepancy in salary between private and public schools, there's likely something else that keeps teachers from going out and finding public school jobs, certainly the lack of job security isn't why private school teachers are sticking around...

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Wow they really need to sell this team.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Well, they get paid worse usually and can be fired if they don’t keep the business going.

I have worked in both systems In my past.

I will say that teachers is a polarizing issue, like all public unions, because the government spend a lot of time and money publicly shitting on them every time there is a negotiation, and so that’s what many people read, hear, and believe.

I know a lot of teachers who work their hearts out for the kids in their classes while having to deal with that shit.

Add in the marking and the planning, and the coaching, and it makes for more of a calling than a money making venture some feel it is.

Private schools typically don’t have any special needs or behaviour issues in their classrooms, and so don’t have to try and manage those kids year after year while also teachings your and my kids, and enjoying themselves in their profession.

Anyways, this is an argument that I want to get too deep into, but imagine if the public system was equally funded….

Is it really not equally funded?

 

[StoicSensFan]

Wow they really need to sell this team.

How dare you talk about the thread's subject

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

It's not moving the goalposts. If you do a $400M refurb of your existing building, you're ostensibly getting a new building. It's like saying just because you didn't knock down the house you bought but renovated it entirely from top to bottom that you're not in a new house. Kind of a weird semantics argument to make. If the new owners said: "we're not moving but we're committing to a comprehensive $300M renovation of the CTC to be completed in 2 years", what would we consider that? Because to me, a $300M renovation where you change the layout, improve the flow, add new features, etc. would be a new building in my eyes.

That doesn't change the location of the building, though. With the Sens, that's one of the main sticking points regarding CTC.