HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

[HuGort]

Since our 5-2-2 start we are 4-6. Draft looking better all the time.

 

[FrankMTL]

Fantastic Tank night

Sharks Won
Sabres Won
Blue Jackets Won
Flames Won

Too bad the Sens still suck.

 

[sandviper]

Bergs did a lot of good too though. Got us to Finals, without trading any future picks or prospects. Habs only time in 31 years. Made a lot of smart moves

Within a silo, he did make some good moves but let’s just be honest here… he’s done more harm than good. I’m sure we can nitpick specific examples and while I do think he won most of his trades, his team building plan was questionable.

As for the finals, yes, he was in charge and Ducharme was our coach but it was Price who got us there. Bergy and DD were likely going to be fired had Toronto finished us off.

 

[morhilane]

How on earth are we above New Jersey in the standing lol

NJ has 8 regular wins, Habs have 3.

The difference is that the Habs managed to go to OT/shutout a lot and win most of those games.

 

[NORiculous]

Again, Chicago, Washington, and Pittsburgh are no longer convincing arguments for tanking as the lottery rules changed in 2015.

It is too early to say patterns will dominate the 2020-2035 period or so, but my best guess is that there is no longer one best strategy to win (such as tanking), just build a good team any way you can.

You win with talent, work and teamwork, as always.

You have better odds getting the talent high in the draft and making sure your team works together is something that happens outside the draft.

So you obviously need ingredients that come from outside the draft, getting top end talent is easier the lower in the standings you end up.

I think this management understands that other things needed (then top end talent) but they still need to get lucky. Maybe that is Slafkovsky or maybe they don’t have him yet.

Some posters on here quickly point to the Leafs as an example of why drafting high might not work. But they never talk about all the work around Marner/Matthews that should also be discussed to correctly assess the situation.

I still think that you need key players that can score/make tough plays in key moments. But to win you also need everyone to play a role.

Habs are trying to build a culture but they still need top talent and unless you can get a superstar in a trade, it’s a the top of the draft that you have the best odds of finding it.

 

[Miller Time]

You win with talent, work and teamwork, as always.

You have better odds getting the talent high in the draft and making sure your team works together is something that happens outside the draft.

So you obviously need ingredients that come from outside the draft, getting top end talent is easier the lower in the standings you end up.

I think this management understands that other things needed (then top end talent) but they still need to get lucky. Maybe that is Slafkovsky or maybe they don’t have him yet.

Some posters on here quickly point to the Leafs as an example of why drafting high might not work. But they never talk about all the work around Marner/Matthews that should also be discussed to correctly assess the situation.

I still think that you need key players that can score/make tough plays in key moments. But to win you also need everyone to play a role.

Habs are trying to build a culture but they still need top talent and unless you can get a superstar in a trade, it’s a the top of the draft that you have the best odds of finding it.

& This is why positive asset management is so crucial... Incrementally increasing draft & prospect collateral sets a team up to be aggressive & opportunistic when those rare moments arise that an elite talent can be acquired via trade... The culture piece also plays a role insofar as creating an environment where players want to play (& speak highly of after leaving... Word travels fast and there are no better brand ambassadors for a team then former players & their agents).

Hughes is doing a great job stacking the deck to improve the odds of us "getting lucky" when it comes to adding talent via trade or eventual targeted star UFA signing.

Future is bright

 

[rahad]

NJ has 8 regular wins, Habs have 3.

The difference is that the Habs managed to go to OT/shutout a lot and win most of those games.

It does not change anything. They still have only 18pts. Has kinda surprise to see the team in the bottom.

 

[Ezpz]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Tinordi ending Dach's season turned into Celebrini?

 

[habsfan891]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Tinordi ending Dach's season turned into Celebrini?

Maybe not ironic but it would certainly make the fans that have watched this garbage injury train decimate our team and prospects for the last 3+ years feel a whole lot better.

 

[morhilane]

It does not change anything. They still have only 18pts. Has kinda surprise to see the team in the bottom.

Well Habs should be way lower, so it does change things.

But NJ is a soft team where key players gets injured often and defensively/in net about where the Habs are...

 

[Ezpz]

Maybe not ironic but it would certainly make the fans that have watched this garbage injury train decimate our team and prospects for the last 3+ years feel a whole lot better.

I just mean ironic in the actual sense that a failed pick by us 13 years ago turns into a franchise player in the long run.

 

[LaP]

beating a dead horse, they just don't get it.

But ... but .... but .... but ... Chicago did not tank they signed a vet UFA the previous year and they finished bottom 5 by accident. Like if it actually mattered the reason why you finish bottom 5.

Hopefully coaching change in Minny catapults them above us in standings.

Wont change anything unless Kaprizov is back on track. He's having a rough start and he carried a lot of guys on his back the last two years,

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

How on earth are we above New Jersey in the standing lol

the leagues parity is insane but things will even out in a few months

So your trying to make it seem like drafting a superstar = failure.

Unbelievable

Imagine watching an elite top 30 forward on my hockey team once in my lifetime , couldn't be me !

Having an above average offensively gifted forward has other perks than helping us win.

Like making me not want to gauge my eyeballs watching this team every night for the past 20 years

 

[DAChampion]

the leagues parity is insane but things will even out in a few months


Imagine watching an elite top 30 forward on my hockey team once in my lifetime , couldn't be me !

Having an above average offensively gifted forward has other perks than helping us win.

Like making me not want to gauge my eyeballs watching this team every night for the past 20 years

Kovalev was so much fun.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Kovalev was so much fun.

He was great that season

I always forget Ribeiro had a hell of a season that same year

 

[Sorinth]

You win with talent, work and teamwork, as always.

You have better odds getting the talent high in the draft and making sure your team works together is something that happens outside the draft.

But in order to be at the bottom for multiple years, which outside of luck is needed to ensure you get the right pick in the right year you have to first be devoid of talent. A scorched earth rebuild isn't take one step back so that you can take two steps forward with the rebuild, it's take 2 steps back and one step forward.

And it's worth noting all the teams used as examples of successful tanks didn't devoid themselves of talent when they tanked. Chicago was trading picks and prospects for guys like Havlat and signing big name UFAs like Khabibulin at the same time they were drafting Toews and Kane. Tampa kept Lecavalier and St-Louis in the fold while getting Stamoks & Hedman. So when pro-tankers say we need to follow the example of those tank teams it's actually a joke because those teams did the exact opposite of what the pro-tankers say we should do.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How on earth are we above New Jersey in the standing lol

NJ’s top two centers have been out.

 

[NewEraGM]

NJ took 4 yrs: 2019 1st overall, 2020 7th OA, 2021 4th OA and 2022 2nd OA
Toronto took 3 yrs: 2014 8th OA, 2015 4th OA and 2016 1st OA
Rangers took 4 yrs: 2017 7th OA, 2018 9th OA, 2019 2nd OAand 2020 1st OA
LA took 3 yrs: 2019 5th OA, 2020 2nd OA and 2021 8th OA
Detroit took 7 years! 2017 9th OA, 2018 6th OA, 2019 6th OA, 2020 4th OA, 2021 6th OA, 2022 8th OA and 2023 9th OA

Habs are in year 3 now. 2021 1st OA, 2022 5th OA.

Rebuilds take time. And outside of Toronto, none of those teams hit on every single top 10 pick (Holtz for NJ, Turcotte for LA, Kaakko for NYR, Zadina for Detroit)

Give 1-2 more top 10 picks to #gohabsgo and we are in business

 

[Miller Time]

NJ’s top two centers have been out.

Still pretty crummy start for them... For a team that expected to contend, gotta be able to absorb injuries better than that.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Still pretty crummy start for them... For a team that expected to contend, gotta be able to absorb injuries better than that.

you're kidding right , its a pretty decent excuse , long season ahead though

NJ took 4 yrs: 2019 1st overall, 2020 7th OA, 2021 4th OA and 2022 2nd OA
Toronto took 3 yrs: 2014 8th OA, 2015 4th OA and 2016 1st OA
Rangers took 4 yrs: 2017 7th OA, 2018 9th OA, 2019 2nd OAand 2020 1st OA
LA took 3 yrs: 2019 5th OA, 2020 2nd OA and 2021 8th OA
Detroit took 7 years! 2017 9th OA, 2018 6th OA, 2019 6th OA, 2020 4th OA, 2021 6th OA, 2022 8th OA and 2023 9th OA

Habs are in year 3 now. 2021 1st OA, 2022 5th OA.

Rebuilds take time. And outside of Toronto, none of those teams hit on every single top 10 pick (Holtz for NJ, Turcotte for LA, Kaakko for NYR, Zadina for Detroit)

Give 1-2 more top 10 picks to #gohabsgo and we are in business

Yes my problem is acting like the rebuild started with the third overall KK pick under bergevin , i see this theory on this board way too often , its nonsense

 

[morhilane]

NJ took 4 yrs: 2019 1st overall, 2020 7th OA, 2021 4th OA and 2022 2nd OA
Toronto took 3 yrs: 2014 8th OA, 2015 4th OA and 2016 1st OA
Rangers took 4 yrs: 2017 7th OA, 2018 9th OA, 2019 2nd OAand 2020 1st OA
LA took 3 yrs: 2019 5th OA, 2020 2nd OA and 2021 8th OA
Detroit took 7 years! 2017 9th OA, 2018 6th OA, 2019 6th OA, 2020 4th OA, 2021 6th OA, 2022 8th OA and 2023 9th OA

Habs are in year 3 now. 2021 1st OA, 2022 5th OA.

Rebuilds take time. And outside of Toronto, none of those teams hit on every single top 10 pick (Holtz for NJ, Turcotte for LA, Kaakko for NYR, Zadina for Detroit)

Give 1-2 more top 10 picks to #gohabsgo and we are in business

It's not the amount of top 10 picks over X years. It's the amount of good draft selections in a few nearby drafts (which is helped by drafting high). You fill your line-up with them or trade the overflow to get what you need.

That's why Hughes traded for 2019 "reclamation projects". Habs currently have Dach, Caufield, Newhook from that draft and Struble might pan out too. 2020 might also be a year to look at for "reclamation projects" now.

 

[Miller Time]

you're kidding right , its a pretty decent excuse , long season ahead though

? Not at all... What is a "contender" if not a team/roster with enough talent & depth to stay competitive through the inevitable injuries that impact a season?


Habs are ahead & lost Dach in game 2 & Dvorak who missed 10 games.

Hughes played 14/19
Hischier 8/19
& they have Mercer as another top 6 caliber C.

I would imagine that the Devil's would be the first to say they are not happy with their first 1/4, regardless of those injuries.

 

[Captain Mountain]

NJ took 4 yrs: 2019 1st overall, 2020 7th OA, 2021 4th OA and 2022 2nd OA
Toronto took 3 yrs: 2014 8th OA, 2015 4th OA and 2016 1st OA
Rangers took 4 yrs: 2017 7th OA, 2018 9th OA, 2019 2nd OAand 2020 1st OA
LA took 3 yrs: 2019 5th OA, 2020 2nd OA and 2021 8th OA
Detroit took 7 years! 2017 9th OA, 2018 6th OA, 2019 6th OA, 2020 4th OA, 2021 6th OA, 2022 8th OA and 2023 9th OA

Habs are in year 3 now. 2021 1st OA, 2022 5th OA.

Rebuilds take time. And outside of Toronto, none of those teams hit on every single top 10 pick (Holtz for NJ, Turcotte for LA, Kaakko for NYR, Zadina for Detroit)

Give 1-2 more top 10 picks to #gohabsgo and we are in business

Yes my problem is acting like the rebuild started with the third overall KK pick under bergevin , i see this theory on this board way too often , its nonsense

I think its an issue of how fans look at rebuilds initiated by teams they don't follow or how different rebuilds evolve.

NJ had 4 straight seasons of top-10 (7) picks, but they also picked 6th in 2015, 12th in 2016 and 1st in 2017. And the rebuild really started with Shero in 2015. And while he was rebuilding, he made moves to try to accelerate it to (Hall and Subban acquisitions come to mind).

Toronto had 3 straight seasons of top-10(8) picks, but they also picked 5th in 2008, 9th in 2009 and 5th in 2012 (and would have picked in the top-10 in 2010 and 2011 if they didn't trade for Kessel). Toronto's rebuild didn't really start until the 2014-2015 season after Nonis was fired, but because they were so poorly run since the beginning of the cap era, they had Kadri, Rielly, etc. on the team/in the system.

Detroit's been adding high picks for years now, but the "Yzerplan" started in 2019. And frankly, its still an open question as to where they actually are right now.

Montreal doesn't just need to add more top picks because its the best way to add young talent, its because their cap situation and roster quality (due to mismanagement largely under Bergevin and injuries) makes it incredibly difficult for them to rebuild any other way. The opportunities that LA and NY took to speed up their rebuilds aren't really there for Montreal. Next season is the first in a while where they will actually have the flexibility to look at the UFA market or take on salary in an attempt to build long term, but they still have to deal with Price's LTIR contract and the fact that the likely rising cap means that a lot of other teams also have cap flexibility.

Players also take time to develop and Montreal is REALLY young.

 

[Seven7]

3

regulation

wins

 

[morhilane]

Based on the first 20 games advanced stats (and average league goaltending stats) for the rest of the season, some analyst model "predict" that the Habs should apparently finish 4th last with 70 points.

Last year they finished 5th with 68 points.

So I think my prediction of them falling in the 6-10 ranks is on its way to happen. Currently 9th in point percentage.