HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

[nhlfan9191]

That's ridiculous math

The president was hired less than 2yrs ago, that's pretty relevant one would think

Clearly not lol

At best one could try to say that Nov 29th is the start of the third year of the rebuild... Which would still be nonsense considering how hockey operations work.

You guys are hilarious

I’m not sure what’s ridiculous about it. Lol this is in fact the third season.

 

[Miller Time]

I’m not sure what’s ridiculous about it. Lol this is in fact the third season.

Only if you play some odd mental gymnastics.

A season is 82 games. We haven't completed 2 X 82 games.

An individual season runs from Sept - June. This is the 2nd individual season the current leadership has led.

The GM will be starting his 3rd year of service in 2 months.

Pretty straightforward

 

[nhlfan9191]

Only if you play some odd mental gymnastics.

A season is 82 games. We haven't completed 2 X 82 games.

An individual season runs from Sept - June. This is the 2nd individual season the current leadership has led.

The GM will be starting his 3rd year of service in 2 months.

Pretty straightforward

There’s no mental gymnastics being played. Not by me at least. Whether HuGo was hired in October of the 21/22 season or February, the tear down with them putting their fingers on the organization started that season. They were in full control of selling off all the assets and the draft. That counts as a year or “season” if you want to argue semantics. I also said we’re currently in the third. Never did I mention anything about this season being completed.

 

[Miller Time]

There’s no mental gymnastics being played. Not by me at least. Whether HuGo was hired in October of the 21/22 season or February, the tear down with them putting their fingers on the organization started that season. They were in full control of selling off all the assets and the draft. That counts as a year or “season” if you want to argue semantics. I also said we’re currently in the third. Never did I mention anything about this season being completed.

Got it. So a partial year mid season counts as a season in your perspective.

Interesting take. Couldn't disagree more, at least with the way & reason you framed it. Seems like a disingenuous critique.

I think accountability is best when it is precise and realistic, but that's me.

While it's perhaps debatable that a season starts either July 1st (with expiration of contracts) or on opening night, I think any suggestion that a season starts at a any random point a GM or hockey president is hired is silly. A season doesn't work that way on or off the ice.

 

[WeThreeKings]

At the moment yes, its hard to see how the talent in this organization and the past draft record of this team going forward will put more than an average product on the ice. instead of the lightning, avalanche, penguins, washington, we will become a lesser version of the hurricanes

The draft record is literally 2 drafts old, and we are in the D+1 season for the 2nd draft. I don't think the consternation around the drafting under the new regime is valid yet just because they wrongly chose to put Slaf in the NHL last year.

 

[bsl]

Without Monahan, this team will be terribad.

Money has been flowing unreal. He is the number 1 c right now. Face offs, goals. Never makes a mistake. Habs could get a first and very good prospect for him at deadline if he keeps this up and god willing stays healthy.

 

[Habbietat]

The draft record is literally 2 drafts old, and we are in the D+1 season for the 2nd draft. I don't think the consternation around the drafting under the new regime is valid yet just because they wrongly chose to put Slaf in the NHL last year.

sure, but from what I can see, Bergevins picks are going to be the top end players on this team so far, which arent top end enough to carry a team so obviously we need better players than ghule, Caufield and Suzuki

 

[WeThreeKings]

sure, but from what I can see, Bergevins picks are going to be the top end players on this team so far

Yeah because they've had a lot more development and luckily are being developed by anyone but him and his cronies. Except Houle, who is the biggest concern in the org right now

 

[Habbietat]

Yeah because they've had a lot more development and luckily are being developed by anyone but him and his cronies. Except Houle, who is the biggest concern in the org right now

just saying ghule, caufield and suzuki are all like 14-16 # picks, if the management cant find more effective players than these with 3 higher picks, 2 that they have used, (Slaf, Reinbacher) 1 which will be used this year, than I dont know how we cant be more than an average team. A lot of our success relies on these picks to be not only succesful but star level unless they get lucky later in the draft which you cant pin your hopes on

 

[WeThreeKings]

just saying ghule, caufield and suzuki are all like 14-16 # picks, if the management cant find more effective players than these with 3 higher picks, 2 that they have used, (Slaf, Reinbacher) 1 which will be used this year, than I dont know how we cant be more than an average team. A lot of our success relies on these picks to be not only succesful but star level unless they get lucky later in the draft which you cant pin your hopes on

I'd say a healthy Dach is more effective and they brought him at the cost of a mid 1st round pick by selling Romanov. They still have great prospects in Hutson, Reinbacher, Engstrom, Beck, Roy, Farrell, Heineman and NHLers developing in Harris, Barron and Xhekaj. They added a bunch of promising goalie prospects recently as well and brought in Newhook.

There's plenty of time to get Slaf's development back on track, and still 2-3 more years of drafting high, and the opportunity to continue to use picks and prospects to trade for pieces that we are missing.

It's the 2nd full year of the rebuild, expecting anything to be more than murky is expecting a bit too much. Chicago has been rebuilding the same amount of time and won Bedard and even he hasn't declared he's pushing the needle so much for them yet, either.

 

[Habbietat]

I'd say a healthy Dach is more effective and they brought him at the cost of a mid 1st round pick by selling Romanov. They still have great prospects in Hutson, Reinbacher, Engstrom, Beck, Roy, Farrell, Heineman and NHLers developing in Harris, Barron and Xhekaj. They added a bunch of promising goalie prospects recently as well and brought in Newhook.

There's plenty of time to get Slaf's development back on track, and still 2-3 more years of drafting high, and the opportunity to continue to use picks and prospects to trade for pieces that we are missing.

It's the 2nd full year of the rebuild, expecting anything to be more than murky is expecting a bit too much. Chicago has been rebuilding the same amount of time and won Bedard and even he hasn't declared he's pushing the needle so much for them yet, either.

my optimism comes in the moves to be made and how they arrange the roster, but they will need to pick up a top level forward or this team isnt going anywhere

 

[First Line]

I’m not sure what’s ridiculous about it. Lol this is in fact the third season.

Who cares the number of years the rebuild has been going it wont make it end faster.

 

[WeThreeKings]

my optimism comes in the moves to be made and how they arrange the roster, but they will need to pick up a top level forward or this team isnt going anywhere

That's not the only thing, though.

Toronto has 4 top level forwards and they are historically bad in the play-offs.
Buffalo has many top level forwards and can't make the play-offs.
Ottawa has Stutzle and Tkachuk and they are looking worse than us.
Edmonton has the 2 best forwards on the planet and they can't win a goddamn game and regularly lose in the play-offs.

Obviously we want to add another top forward, but there will be plenty of ways to do that.. either through the draft, through development of some we have in house right now or by using our war chest of picks and defenseman to acquire a forward.

 

[nhlfan9191]

This team will be tanking until we can rely on better players than Suzuki and Caufield to carry the team night over night. They are pieces that you add to an already elite core, not the pieces you can surround them with less skilled players.

This team will be tanking until Anderson, Matheson, Xhekaj stops playing on the PP. Until Allen and Montembeault stop playing over their head.

The sad reality is this team needs to add exceptionnal talent in the 2024 and 2025 drafts. 2 top 5 picks and another 2 top 20 with CGY and trading monahan this year is a MUST

Caufield has the potential to score 50. That kind of goal scoring puts him if the elite category and he is someone we will rely on to be an important part of the core. Guhle I think has the potential to be apart of that group at some point as well. Don’t know where Suzuki will fit but any team would view him as a great option as a top 6. Everyone else is a bit of a mystery box.

 

[ReHabs]

Who cares the number of years the rebuild has been going it wont make it end faster.

Drafting poorly and burning through dubious prospects by rushing them won't make it end faster either.

We have very little to look toward -- not one prospect who has PPG upside.

 

[Lshap]

did you even watch the playoffs? They got beaten by Price one year which was the biggest steal in history of playoffs and the year after against Tampa in 7 games that won the cup. Last year they lost to a cinderally team, i agree that that dont have a good goalie, but i would by miles be more excited with their forward core than ours

'Biggest steal in playoff history'?? Not even close. Leafs did what they always do – choke. The list of teams managing to 'steal' a win over Toronto grows longer each year.

Yes, they have three star forwards. Habs will need at least one more before they're able to contend. However, the Leafs remain the model for how NOT to build a winning roster.

 

[WeThreeKings]

'Biggest steal in playoff history'?? Not even close. Leafs did what they always do – choke. The list of teams managing to 'steal' a win over Toronto grows longer each year.

Yes, they have three star forwards. Habs will need at least one more before they're able to contend. However, the Leafs remain the model for how NOT to build a winning roster.

4* star forwards.

However -
no goaltending
no depth
no defense
no heart
no courage
no fight
no will

 

[Adriatic]

4* star forwards.

However -
no goaltending
no depth
no defense
no heart
no courage
no fight
no will

This is their year though! No cinderella is knocking them off this season.

 

[NORiculous]

4* star forwards.

However -
no goaltending
no depth
no defense
no heart
no courage
no fight
no will

Does that mean stars are bad?

 

[McGees]

4* star forwards.

However -
no goaltending
no depth
no defense
no heart
no courage
no fight
no will

but but Reaves.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Does that mean stars are bad?

It means that the collective theme of this board that the Habs need to abandon anything and everything to solely grab a star forward is short-sighted.

Two organizations are built solely on star power and nothing else and they are Canada's yearly embarrassments in the West and East.

We need a star forward, of course, that will elevate the roster, but that doesn't mean that grabbing Reinbacher over the perceived star forward is a flawed decision. It means that they recognize it takes more than a talented forward to win the cup, and I'm in the business of winning while I think some people are in the business of hockey DB pages. I know a lot of Leafs fans are but that appears to be copium.

 

[NORiculous]

It means that the collective theme of this board that the Habs need to abandon anything and everything to solely grab a star forward is short-sighted.

So picking Reinbacher over a forward is proof that management isn’t trying to only “get stars while abandoning anything else”?

Why would it be any different had they picked a forward or a goaltender?

Two organizations are built solely on star power and nothing else and they are Canada's yearly embarrassments in the West and East.

So the model would be to reverse the process…? Start with anything but stars and add them later? Why would picking a star, at any point, be proof of direction?

We need a star forward, of course, that will elevate the roster, but that doesn't mean that grabbing Reinbacher over the perceived star forward is a flawed decision. It means that they recognize it takes more than a talented forward to win the cup, and I'm in the business of winning while I think some people are in the business of hockey DB pages. I know a lot of Leafs fans are but that appears to be copium.

Obviously it’s a team game and since you are in the business of winning…

But how many teams in the past 20 years have won without a star?

How many forward players drafted each year become stars?

You say the Habs need a star forward. How do you propose to get that star?

 

[Miller Time]

You say the Habs need a star forward. How do you propose to get that star?

Vegas got star forwards via trade & expansion draft (Stone, Eichel, Marchessault)
Bolts via 1OA and later picks well developed (Stamkos, Kucherov, Point)
Avalance via 1OA, 10OA and trade (Mac, Rantanen, Kadri)

not at all inconceivable that in 3-4 years, we'll be looking at a team with star players acquired in similar fashion
Trade (Suzuki, Dach, Newhook)
later picks (Roy, Mesar)
1OA (Slaf)

most of the stars on those teams were not star performers until D3 or later, none of them were stars in D1

Patience is hard to come by after so long without star forwards, i get it, but the way to get star players requires it and this management group seems well on their way to making that happen.

 

[NORiculous]

Vegas got star forwards via trade & expansion draft (Stone, Eichel, Marchessault)
Bolts via 1OA and later picks well developed (Stamkos, Kucherov, Point)
Avalance via 1OA, 10OA and trade (Mac, Rantanen, Kadri)

not at all inconceivable that in 3-4 years, we'll be looking at a team with star players acquired in similar fashion
Trade (Suzuki, Dach, Newhook)
later picks (Roy, Mesar)
1OA (Slaf)

most of the stars on those teams were not star performers until D3 or later, none of them were stars in D1

Patience is hard to come by after so long without star forwards, i get it, but the way to get star players requires it and this management group seems well on their way to making that happen.

I’m a fan of Newhook and believe he can be a good one. Same with Dach. I also believe in Roy a lot.

I was just asking him because his post seems to indicate that stars are “empty” without a team. But I don’t see the forced correlation between wanting to draft a star and not wanting a team to surround him.

 

[Miller Time]

I’m a fan of Newhook and believe he can be a good one. Same with Dach. I also believe in Roy a lot.

I was just asking him because his post seems to indicate that stars are “empty” without a team. But I don’t see the forced correlation between wanting to draft a star and not wanting a team to surround him.

definitely agree that it's not "either/or"... but i think building a culture of excellence that both supports players playing to their potential and committing to putting the team results ahead of individual stats is a lot harder than many imagine.

we just endured a decade of a management group that treated it as an either/or proposition and wanted to stamp out all individual excellence in some misguided Karakter narrative... that approach sucks, to be sure. But i would hate to see the pendulum swing the other way and see us chase after star in the belief that any one individual player excelling is the recipe to building a winner. that approach also sucks.

they seem to be straddling the line pretty well thus far, creating an environment that embraces skill and individual ability while fostering buy in from the group to work towards a shared long term vision (one that they all know many of them won't see come to full fruition)... that's what gives me a lot of confidence in the approach and makes it easier to be patient as it unfolds