HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

[Nicko999]

Dach has barely played any games not sure how he decrease our chance to get Bedard/Celebrini. Same for Newhook he has not been a difference maker at all.

Dach played 58 games last year and was our 3rd best forward. How is that not a difference maker for the team.
Same for Newhook. He's been the 4th or 5th best player most of the season.

 

[The Great Weal]

2 of the 4 players you named are not even in the NHL. Smith is a better prospect than both Mailloux and Reinbacher as we speak.
SJ got a new GM last year I believe so I wouldn't judge previous just as I wouldn't judge pre Hughes years.

3 of the 4 players for the Sharks aren't even in the NHL either, especially since they gifted one away for Karlsson. Smith is not better than Slaf though and is very clearly on a lower tier than Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson.

You are judging pre Hughes years. He has Caufield/Suzuki/Guhle as young NHL cornerstone pieces, Grier had none of that, only the aging Hertl/Couture.

 

[Captain Mountain]

A little bit of lottery luck would go a long way yes. It would change the whole dynamic of the team. We need gamebreakers so 7-8th overall picks won't do. I still don't trust the scouting staff to make the correct selection. At least not until they have a proven track record of a few players.


2 of the 4 players you named are not even in the NHL. Smith is a better prospect than both Mailloux and Reinbacher as we speak.
SJ got a new GM last year I believe so I wouldn't judge previous years just as I wouldn't judge pre Hughes years.

Drafting 1st-3rd isn't a guarantee of getting a game breaker and there are great players taken 7th-9th too. Berniers vs. Clarke, Lafreniere vs. Quinn, Dach vs. Zegras, Kotkaniemi vs. Hughes, Patrick vs. Mittelstadt.

If you don't trust the scouting staff now then where the team finishes is irrelevant. And you should frankly be less in favour of a tear down rebuild that would necessitate moving guys like Suzuki than what Montreal is doing right now.

 

[Sorinth]

Drafting 1st-3rd isn't a guarantee of getting a game breaker and there are great players taken 7th-9th too. Berniers vs. Clarke, Lafreniere vs. Quinn, Dach vs. Zegras, Kotkaniemi vs. Hughes, Patrick vs. Mittelstadt.

If you don't trust the scouting staff now then where the team finishes is irrelevant. And you should frankly be less in favour of a tear down rebuild that would necessitate moving guys like Suzuki than what Montreal is doing right now.

Yeah it's weird that the ones wanting to tank the hardest are the ones that trust the scouting staff the least. I get why they don't like the scouts since we passed on Michkov and Slaf was a bit controvertial but if picks 7+ are already considered not good enough for a proper rebuild then what the hell is a rebuild because 0 teams have won the cup where there best players have all come from picks 1-6.

 

[LaP]

Yeah it's weird that the ones wanting to tank the hardest are the ones that trust the scouting staff the least. I get why they don't like the scouts since we passed on Michkov and Slaf was a bit controvertial but if picks 7+ are already considered not good enough for a proper rebuild then what the hell is a rebuild because 0 teams have won the cup where there best players have all come from picks 1-6.

I've been one of the biggest apologist for a rebuild in the last 20 years and in my book 7th is good enough as long as you have other picks to go with it. If you have a 7th and then you only have 3 picks in the top 100 then it's not great, I'd like us to go get another pick for 2024 personally even just a 2nd round i'd be fine with it.

 

[Sorinth]

I've been one of the biggest apologist for a rebuild in the last 20 years and in my book 7th is good enough as long as you have other picks to go with it. If you have a 7th and then you only have 3 picks in the top 100 then it's not great, I'd like us to go get another pick for 2024 personally even just a 2nd round i'd be fine with it.

But are you the "we need to go scorched earth sell everyone over 25" type of rebuild apologist?

I'm 100% behind the rebuild, and like you I also think 7th is a great pick that gives you the chance at a stud. But having said that I definitely believe that the focus needs to be on maximizing the development of the young NHL assets you already have over improving your draft slot a couple of ranks. Having Suzuki become that PPG center is more important then drafting 6th instead of 7th, Xhekaj figuring out how to be more than a fighter with a good shot is more important then a late 1st and another 50-100 pick. So yeah if Armia's play helps Roy find the confidence to reach his potential then sure I'll keep Armia's overpaid ass over a guy like Ylonen who has more to offer but won't help anybody else's development.

 

[LaP]

But are you the "we need to go scorched earth sell everyone over 25" type of rebuild apologist?

I'm 100% behind the rebuild, and like you I also think 7th is a great pick that gives you the chance at a stud. But having said that I definitely believe that the focus needs to be on maximizing the development of the young NHL assets you already have over improving your draft slot a couple of ranks. Having Suzuki become that PPG center is more important then drafting 6th instead of 7th, Xhekaj figuring out how to be more than a fighter with a good shot is more important then a late 1st and another 50-100 pick. So yeah if Armia's play helps Roy find the confidence to reach his potential then sure I'll keep Armia's overpaid ass over a guy like Ylonen who has more to offer but won't help anybody else's development.

I don't care about the little war on semantics. I think it's stupid. The only thing i ask our management is to trade declining assets for assets who might gain value. Way too often in the past we have let very good assets decline slowly when we had 0 chance to win. The most notable example was Souray. Losing Souray for nothing in a year where we had 0 chance to win was stupid. Maximizing development is something all teams should do no matter the situation.

 

[Rapala]

Last nights win doesn't change anything in terms of our projected 70 pts by end of the year.

I'm guessing 74 points should put us in 7th. I'd love 5th but I just don't see it.

 

[Captain Mountain]

But are you the "we need to go scorched earth sell everyone over 25" type of rebuild apologist?

I'm 100% behind the rebuild, and like you I also think 7th is a great pick that gives you the chance at a stud. But having said that I definitely believe that the focus needs to be on maximizing the development of the young NHL assets you already have over improving your draft slot a couple of ranks. Having Suzuki become that PPG center is more important then drafting 6th instead of 7th, Xhekaj figuring out how to be more than a fighter with a good shot is more important then a late 1st and another 50-100 pick. So yeah if Armia's play helps Roy find the confidence to reach his potential then sure I'll keep Armia's overpaid ass over a guy like Ylonen who has more to offer but won't help anybody else's development.

The problem is that a scorched earth rebuild isn't "sell everyone over 25 type", its sell or get rid of everyone that even has a chance of preventing the team from getting the best lottery odds (or close to that). Its why the only time teams go truly scorched earth is when there's a generational prospect available.

 

[417]

It is a retool.

How it's defined doesn't really matter. The objective is the same.

Why would Hughes trade 1st rounders for Dach and Newhook? Players who are further along in their development? He wants to speed up the process.

I don't think any team wants to suck for long. When you bottom out like the Habs did, you can't go any further, at a certain point you have to raise the expectations.

Dach and Newhook acquisitions don't really change the perception of whether or not it's a rebuild or a retool.

If you have an opportunity to to speed up your process to get better, why would you forego it in favor of trying to get worse?

I'm not sure I understand that logic especially because doing so doesn't guarantee it will magically turn one day.

By acquiring those assets, you are DECREASING your odds for Bedard/Celebrini. This not what rebuilding teams do. I am OK with the trades but let’s call it as it is, a retool.
What Gainey did was a different kind of retool. Hughes is just being smarter in his approach.

Increasing your odds for a Bedard/Celibrini, doesn't guarantee you’ll get them either.

Part of the reason why Ottawa has not had success and are in a forever rebuild is that they have had 1 top 3 pick. Most of the time they stuck between that 7-10th position. It absolutely is no man land for a bad team that needs higher picks.

But the Ottawa Senators ended up picking guys who in a redraft would go top 3, Sanderson, Stutzle, Tkachuk.

So clearly, just drafting top 3 doesn't guarantee anything. The Senators are a good example of a team that just sat on the merits of having drafted some good players in certain drafts, but outside of that they made terrible trades, awful signings, bad coaching hires, terrible hockey ops departments, bad ownership, etc.

There are a lot of areas team need to be good at, and just drafting top 3 on its own is and has never been enough. There's no guarantee that evdery draft has the top 3 players 1-2-3.

What exactly is a sign we are progressing when if not for the gimmick OT/SO (not real regular hockey situations), we would be 3rd last behind Chicago and San Jose?

Well the argument isn't that they've progressed because collectively as a team as it relates to results, they haven't.

But there are definite signs that individually, some of players who are going to be here for the next 5+ years are progressing very well.

They're not a team being led by washed up veterans, Hughes isn't done purging the MB era…but there are signs IMO. The next 2 off-season are going to go a long way in that so we’ll see.

 

[Redux91]

As long as Molson is there, i hope people realize there will be no rebuild. What we are doing is a retool. 7th overall is almost this no man land we love. We have the same 2 best players as 3 years ago.
Chicago and San Jose are doing a proper rebuild, not us.

So much...

So much wrong in this post..

Chicago..? ..San Jose..? They're doing proper 'tanks' sure, but tank doesnt = auto success, it just = potential super high picks that may or may not pan out
When they actually start their rebuilds be sure to let me know, because they're finishing dead last for the next few years, and they probably become the new current Buffalo and Ottawa most likely

How do you not see this, what were doing, is in fact a rebuild, stocking up at every position with youth and more youth on the way..
And our early returns are already starting to show a lil bit albeit still ridiculously early in the big picture
And that's with a top 10 pick + summer trade on the way

im actually offended you think san jose and chicago are rebuilding better than us lol
we're already rebuilding better than Ottawa and Buffalo who have like a 4 year start on us..............

 

[vokiel]

It is a retool.

Why would Hughes trade 1st rounders for Dach and Newhook?

He's an idiot who likes to gamble? If it was retooling he would have acquired far more proven core-capable pieces. Those 2 aren't remotely close to be core players, and they weren't close at all before he acquired them. It's like getting slightly better reclamation projects, which teams do often, regardless of retooling or rebuilding.

 

[Nicko999]

Drafting 1st-3rd isn't a guarantee of getting a game breaker and there are great players taken 7th-9th too. Berniers vs. Clarke, Lafreniere vs. Quinn, Dach vs. Zegras, Kotkaniemi vs. Hughes, Patrick vs. Mittelstadt.

If you don't trust the scouting staff now then where the team finishes is irrelevant. And you should frankly be less in favour of a tear down rebuild that would necessitate moving guys like Suzuki than what Montreal is doing right now.

Precisely why we need a higher, the choice is essier. In the case of the 1st overall, it's obvious an one

So much...

So much wrong in this post..

Chicago..? ..San Jose..? They're doing proper 'tanks' sure, but tank doesnt = auto success, it just = potential super high picks that may or may not pan out
When they actually start their rebuilds be sure to let me know, because they're finishing dead last for the next few years, and they probably become the new current Buffalo and Ottawa most likely

How do you not see this, what were doing, is in fact a rebuild, stocking up at every position with youth and more youth on the way..
And our early returns are already starting to show a lil bit albeit still ridiculously early in the big picture
And that's with a top 10 pick + summer trade on the way

im actually offended you think san jose and chicago are rebuilding better than us lol
we're already rebuilding better than Ottawa and Buffalo who have like a 4 year start on us..............

Never said San Jose was in a better position than us. Not even close.
Chicago however especially if they get Celebrini would be in a much better situation and can bet the will be better than the Habs in 2 years.

It's hard to say if we doing better than Ottawa and Buffalo since the team might crash next year (see New Jersey). All it takes is a less performent Montembault and things go downhill.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Precisely why we need a higher, the choice is essier. In the case of the 1st overall, it's obvious an one



Never said San Jose was in a better position than us. Not even close.
Chicago however especially if they get Celebrini would be in a much better situation and can bet the will be better than the Habs in 2 years.

It's hard to say if we doing better than Ottawa and Buffalo since the team might crash next year (see New Jersey). All it takes is a less performent Montembault and things go downhill.

The choice is rarely much easier when its higher, it depends entirely on the draft class. But usually if you don't win the draft lottery to pick 1 or 2, its not actually easier.

And if your argument hinges on a team getting lucky in the draft lottery (and especially in Chicago's case hitting on just 2% better lottery odds than Montreal), then it seems more like you'd prefer Montreal to be luckier than they have been. Which everyone on here would want, but means literally nothing when it comes to a rebuild. If Montreal wins the lottery last year and take Bedard while Chicago takes Smith, then literally your entire argument is invalidated.

And up until Florida's second half run, Montreal had the same or better lottery odds as Chicago.

 

[The Great Weal]

Chicago however especially if they get Celebrini would be in a much better situation

That's the whole point, IF they win it as in it's not a guarantee whatsoever. IF the Hawks didn't get lucky with the Bedard lottery given that they only had the 3rd best odds, was it still smart for them to completely gut their team for Fantilli?

 

[JoelWarlord]

That's the whole point, IF they win it as in it's not a guarantee whatsoever. IF the Hawks didn't get lucky with the Bedard lottery given that they only had the 3rd best odds, was it still smart for them to completely gut their team for Fantilli?

Yeah I don't get the Chicago worship. It's not like they finished 32nd, they were 30th and on lottery day Chicago had an 11.5% chance at Bedard and a 39.7% chance at dropping to 4th along with a 29.8% chance at dropping to 5th. Our chance at Bedard from 28th place was 8.5%. Just 3% better odds and they were nearly 4x as likely to walk away from that miserable season with only Will Smith to show for it.

 

[Tuggy]

Can the Sens win a game tonight??

 

[WeThreeKings]

Can the Sens win a game tonight??

No

 

[Gustave]

Can the Sens win a game tonight??

It’s prohibited.

 

[Tuggy]

Sabres hanging on most of the 3rd and almost win it, but going to OT.

So at least a point.

 

[McGees]

Sens about to lose to the Ducks because...Sens.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

Sens lose to Ducks 2-1.

5 pts back still & down to 2 games in hand.

Sabres get a point, so move 5 pts up on Montreal. Montreal holds a game in hand.

 

[LesHabitants]

Ottawa is a raging dumpster fire.

 

[sandviper]

Sens lose to Ducks 2-1.

5 pts back still & down to 2 games in hand.

Sabres get a point, so move 5 pts up on Montreal. Montreal holds a game in hand.

Of course, I realize it may not play out optimally in the end, but during our rebuild, two of our core; Suzuki and Caufield, have been to the cup finals and have won shit in their junior careers. They know what it takes to win.

Dach has played with cup winners in Chicago, Newhook has a cup ring. Savard, while not a future core but currently a mentor, has a cup ring. We bag on them, but Gallagher and Anderson where part of our last run.

My point is I’m hoping with many players having tasted or almost tasting glory will mitigate the likelihood of the “loser mentality”.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Well we can forget finishing ahead of Ottawa.

Good news? I don't see a situation where they aren't drafting a defenseman with that pick.