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HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

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HuGo Burner Acc said:
He realizwd the team was not good enough around its core at the time (Price, Weber, etc) and took 3 offseasons to acquire the right pieces to surround them
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So you are saying he tried to make the team better. Molson, however didn't like the team he built and got rid of him.
 
RealityBytes said:
If that definition makes you feel better, so be it, but it is splitting hairs. With both it comes to the same thing, they are trying to build a better team.

So what are Habs doing now as per your definitions? Retooling or Rebuilding?
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Neither really. I've actually fought back at the rebuilders. It's very rare that a team retools, acquires young core pieces, fires their GM and then immediately does a "restructuring".

What the Habs are doing is tanking, we can all agree with that. HuGo inherited Suzuki, Caufield and the rest of the players drafted between 2018 and 2021 which is a significant part of their existing/future team. Also the 1st OA pick was basically due to the previous administration. After the 2022 draft, which is where people typically start the HuGo "rebuild" at, they needed to acquire two top 6 F, a no.1 D, and a future goaltender àlong with getting rid of all the crappy contracts while developing and graduating all the prospects. This in my opinion should not be classified as a rebuild so it is just semantics like you stated but the reality of a retool and rebuild are not just semantics as they attribute to different things

RealityBytes said:
So you are saying he tried to make the team better. Molson, however didn't like the team he built and got rid of him.
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He did make the team better. They made a finals. We can't take that away from them. But we can't forget Price, Weber, Danault all leaving under different circumstances. That was the most devestating blow to the upcoming team imo. What made Molson get rid of MB was the terrible 2021 offseason he had. He was on his last strike and Molson called him out
 
vokiel said:
Rebuilding team: Does not care about wins and playoffs.
Retooling team: Cares about wins and playoffs.

That's not splitting hairs on semantics.
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vokiel said:
Rebuilding team: Does not care about wins and playoffs.
Retooling team: Cares about wins and playoffs.

That's not splitting hairs on semantics.
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Both are trying to build a better team. Both definitions are under that umbrella.

So what are Habs doing now as per your definitions? Retooling or Rebuilding?
 
RealityBytes said:
Both are trying to build a better team. Both definitions are under that umbrella.

So what are Habs doing now as per your definitions? Retooling or Rebuilding?
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All teams are trying to build a better team all the time, that sticking point isn't a valid argument because it's the basis for everyone.

It's all about where you see the window to win. If you're rebuilding it's medium to long term, retooling is for short to medium term. How I see the difference:

Habs are rebuilding because:
1. They prioritize development over playoffs and wins
2. They accept changes with medium to long term payouts. The players they build with won't help them right away.
3. They accumulate picks, instead of spending them liberally at the TDL
4. They avoid UFA contracts to favor players under development.

If Habs were retooling:
1. Players would have KPIs measured with the playoffs and wins.
2. They might make short term changes in hopes of making the playoffs right away.
3. They might use their picks to make those short term changes.
4. They might sign multiple UFAs (Ex: Gainey with Gomez, Gionta, etc..)
 
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RealityBytes said:
Retool?? Rebuild?? Same thing. Just trying to get better. Any difference is just splitting hairs with semantics.
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Not attributing to the current management what the past management did is not splitting hairs with semantics. KH has been rebuilding for 2 years. There's really no semantic here.
 
HuGo Burner Acc said:
Neither really. I've actually fought back at the rebuilders. It's very rare that a team retools, acquires young core pieces, fires their GM and then immediately does a "restructuring".

What the Habs are doing is tanking, we can all agree with that. HuGo inherited Suzuki, Caufield and the rest of the players drafted between 2018 and 2021 which is a significant part of their existing/future team. Also the 1st OA pick was basically due to the previous administration. After the 2022 draft, which is where people typically start the HuGo "rebuild" at, they needed to acquire two top 6 F, a no.1 D, and a future goaltender àlong with getting rid of all the crappy contracts while developing and graduating all the prospects. This in my opinion should not be classified as a rebuild so it is just semantics like you stated but the reality of a retool and rebuild are not just semantics as they attribute to different things


He did make the team better. They made a finals. We can't take that away from them. But we can't forget Price, Weber, Danault all leaving under different circumstances. That was the most devestating blow to the upcoming team imo. What made Molson get rid of MB was the terrible 2021 offseason he had. He was on his last strike and Molson called him out
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Tanking?? Oh no! ... thanks for your explanation but to me it all fits under the umbrella that "they are trying to build a better team". Whether retooling, rebuilding, or tanking ... what they are trying to do is build a better team. Maybe slightly different methods as some see it, but that is the goal of what they trying to do. Build a better team.

The team Bergevin built was fourth in the division, 16th in the league in the playoffs in a special bracket year. It was not so much a good teams as much as a team that just got lucky from other team player losses. It also had a terrible image. Image is a key for an NHL owner to make money. Molson didn't like the team and got rid of Bergevin. His team, his choice.
 
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I hope we don't win a single other game this year , id also be fine with losing 82 games next season yeah I said it.

The mediocrity lovers couldn't handle it though , they are so excited for us to fight for 10th place with an ass team once again
 
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RealityBytes said:
Tanking?? LOL ... it all fits under the umbrella that "they are trying to build a better team". Whether retooling, rebuilding, or tanking ... what they are trying to do is build a better team. Maybe slightly different methods as some see it, but that is the goal of what they trying to do. Build a better team.

The team Bergevin built was fourth in the division, 18th in the league in a special year. It was not so much a good teams as much as a team that just got lucky from other team player losses. It also had a terrible image. Image is a key for an NHL owner to make money. Molson didn't like the team and got rid of Bergevin. His team, his choice.
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Tanking is not the same as building a team. Also everyone is trying to get better so under your thinking no nuance would ever exist and every team would be doing the exact same thing but in different stages. One is a way to achieve the other. I tend to agree that they are trying to build a better team but you can't be that thick to understand the differences. MB saw the Habs make the finals, saw his best players leave and still double down on competing in 2021-22. Let's say after Price, Weber, Danault and KK leave he doesn't execute any of his disastrous moves and instead goes up to Molson and explains that he built a team that made a finals but many of those core pieces won't be around therefore, Habs have to built on what they have instead of reshuffling the deck like he did. Molson might actually have given him another chance. One thing you said is quite relevant though. The image of the Habs in the eyes of consumers was not good. Drafting mailloux even got the prime minister of all people to criticize the team. Then everything that happened in the offseason. The fans soured on MB and Molson knew that he needed a change to at least inspire the fans to trust in the new direction. Also Bergevin built a playoff team not a reg season team. It's not a coincidence that playoff price came out... During the playoffs. Think of the leafs but reverse it.
 
MarkovsKnee said:
Senators win in a shootout. Ottawa is now one point up on Montreal with 3 games in hand still.

Officially 6th.
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It's been a pretty decent week for the crappy teams around the Habs I'm general. Habs went from no man's land in January to realistic draft lottery contention. I half seriously said a few weeks ago that Habs could be last in the east by the end of February. Probably won't end up that low so soon at least but it's close when you factor in jackets games in hand
 
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HuGo Burner Acc said:
Tanking is not the same as building a team. Also everyone is trying to get better so under your thinking no nuance would ever exist and every team would be doing the exact same thing but in different stages. One is a way to achieve the other. I tend to agree that they are trying to build a better team but you can't be that thick to understand the differences. MB saw the Habs make the finals, saw his best players leave and still double down on competing in 2021-22. Let's say after Price, Weber, Danault and KK leave he doesn't execute any of his disastrous moves and instead goes up to Molson and explains that he built a team that made a finals but many of those core pieces won't be around therefore, Habs have to built on what they have instead of reshuffling the deck like he did. Molson might actually have given him another chance. One thing you said is quite relevant though. The image of the Habs in the eyes of consumers was not good. Drafting mailloux even got the prime minister of all people to criticize the team. Then everything that happened in the offseason. The fans soured on MB and Molson knew that he needed a change to at least inspire the fans to trust in the new direction. Also Bergevin built a playoff team not a reg season team. It's not a coincidence that playoff price came out... During the playoffs. Think of the leafs but reverse it.
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Well, I am not thick (obstinate maybe) and do understand what you are trying to get across to me, but the acquiring of players or getting rid of players, as well as developing players and coaches are the tasks of trying to build a better team. Putting these tasks under different sub headings is just a descriptive way of performing those tasks. Anyway, enough of this, we've beaten it to death.

However, all in good humour, and in your choice ... are the Habs retooling, or rebuilding (as versus tanking), or tanking in their present scenario.

PS; I was surprised Bergevin took Mailloux. I would have bet Molson had a fit over that.
 
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