HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

[LaP]

You aren't winning the Cup with Suzuki as your #1C. Caufield-Suzuki-Slafkovsky is a fine 2nd line but it's not a real first.

You are projecting yourself in the future here. Yeah if Caufield and Slaf do not progress much it's a fine 2nd line. But we don't know that yet. It's not a 1st line atm if it was we would make the playoffs. But that could change or not. We also have Dach who is still young enough and talented enough to develop as a 1st line center.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

You aren't winning the Cup with Suzuki as your #1C. Caufield-Suzuki-Slafkovsky is a fine 2nd line but it's not a real first.

If we can land a 1C Nick can slot down and suddenly we look alot better.

So same issue as the last 20 years basically

 

[JoelWarlord]

Anderson on the top 6 and PP.
Gallagher getting his 15-16 minutes a night despite not being able to do 30 seconds shift since 2021.
Matheson playing 26 minutes a night (without OT) way too often.

Ylonen sitting in the stands or barely getting any TOI despite all the injuries.
None of the kid Ds getting a proper chance on the power play.
Slaf is 11th in OT TOI despite being 4th in points on the team now that Monahan was traded.

I dunno, I think this is a grass is always greener on the other side thing. Holtz is playing on the 4th line with the Devils, Columbus has been yo-yoing Jiricek and Johnson this year, Toronto has been scratching Nick Robertson (on a 40P pace) for scrub 4th liners, etc.

Ylonen getting bottom six minutes, Slafkovsky not being used enough in OT, and Matheson playing PP1 over Barron is pretty small potatoes by comparison. Every coach has their guys and their little things that piss fans off and our cases are pretty minor.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Anderson on the top 6 and PP.
Gallagher getting his 15-16 minutes a night despite not being able to do 30 seconds shift since 2021.
Matheson playing 26 minutes a night (without OT) way too often.

Ylonen sitting in the stands or barely getting any TOI despite all the injuries.
None of the kid Ds getting a proper chance on the power play.
Slaf is 11th in OT TOI despite being 4th in points on the team now that Monahan was traded.

Anderson gets playing time because Montreal's got awful forward depth and doesn't get top PP time
Gallagher is averaging 14 minutes a night
Matheson plays a lot of minutes because a lot of the young D aren't ready yet (same as on the PP)

Ylonen isn't getting ice time because his play hasn't warranted it.
Guhle is the only young D that hasn't gotten a chance on the PP, and most of the time their play hasn't warranted a longer look.
Slaf's ice time has been steadily rising all season, context is important.

Its fine to want to play young guys, but if there's not a merit element then you're not going to actually develop guys.

I really urge you to look at literally any other NHL team if you think Montreal isn't playing the young guys. Because you're standard is pretty far off of what the NHL is that the criticism loses any real merit. If you think MSL favours veterans, then there isn't a coach in the NHL that doesn't favour veterans.

You aren't winning the Cup with Suzuki as your #1C. Caufield-Suzuki-Slafkovsky is a fine 2nd line but it's not a real first.

We don't know what Suzuki will be. But Montreal's still in the middle of a rebuild.

 

[Nicko999]

We don't know what Suzuki will be. But Montreal's still in the middle of a rebuild.

Suzuki will be 25 next season. It's unreasonable to expect much more improvement. He is entering his prime.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Suzuki will be 25 next season. It's unreasonable to expect much more improvement. He is entering his prime.

No it isn't. Look at Gaudreau and Huberdeau with worse supporting casts. When the team has 2 real scoring lines and a solid 3rd line AND is a contender they will put up 80 pts+.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Suzuki will be 25 next season. It's unreasonable to expect much more improvement. He is entering his prime.

I don't disagree, but the question with Suzuki isn't really improvement, its what he'll look like with more support. Montreal's already had a bad roster, and no other Hab has come close to playing regularly the last two seasons. This season Montreal will get a combined 27 games out of two players expected to play middle 6 C for the team (Dach and Dvorak).

I look at a guy like Larkin, who started looking better at 25 when Detroit actually started filling out their roster.

My preference is Montreal getting a C that would make Suzuki a 1B C or 2C and I think they'll still have opportunities to do that, but I don't think we've seen what Suzuki can be with the team that's around him.

 

[Nicko999]

No it isn't. Look at Gaudreau and Huberdeau with worse supporting casts. When the team has 2 real scoring lines and a solid 3rd line AND is a contender they will put up 80 pts+.

Gaudreau and Huberdeau are wingers not centers. I get your point but Suzuki is currently playing more than he should. If he had good supporting cast he would play 17-18 min instead of the 20+ right now. Will probably get less PP time. So not sure his production will be all that better. It's unreasonable to think he'll be PPG all of the sudden. Maybe in his career year who knows.

It's not like he is playing on a line with Gallagher or Pezzeta either. Suzuki is centering the 2 best forwards on the team.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Gaudreau and Huberdeau are wingers not centers. I get your point but Suzuki is currently playing more than he should. If he had good supporting cast he would play 17-18 min instead of the 20+ right now. Will probably get less PP time. So not sure his production will be all that better. It's unreasonable to think he'll be PPG all of the sudden. Maybe in his career year who knows.

He would be on the 1st PP. If they have a better supporting cast the 2nd unit might get more ice time though. The increase in points would be because his line wouldn't be the only line for the opponent to concentrate on.

 

[Nicko999]

He would be on the 1st PP. If they have a better supporting cast the 2nd unit might get more ice time though. The increase in points would be because his line wouldn't be the only line for the opponent to concentrate on.

It doesn't work that way... Koivu went from #1C with the Habs to #2C with the Ducks with better offensive cast. Despite that, his production remained the same. 50 pts (65 games) in 08-09 with MTL, 52 pts (71 games) in 09-10 with Anaheim.
Didn't affect Getzlaf's production as well.

Suzuki having a better supporting cast will make the team better but it will not magically make Suzuki a PPG guy.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

It doesn't work that way... Koivu went from #1C with the Habs to #2C with the Ducks with better offensive cast. Despite that, his production remained the same. 50 pts (65 games) in 08-09 with MTL, 52 pts (71 games) in 09-10 with Anaheim.
Didn't affect Getzlaf's production as well.

Suzuki having a better supporting cast will make the team better but it will not magically make Suzuki a PPG guy.

Actually having 2 1st line level linemates will. Slaf is still developing so if the line stays together it can only get better.

 

[Captain Mountain]

It doesn't work that way... Koivu went from #1C with the Habs to #2C with the Ducks with better offensive cast. Despite that, his production remained the same. 50 pts (65 games) in 08-09 with MTL, 52 pts (71 games) in 09-10 with Anaheim.
Didn't affect Getzlaf's production as well.

Suzuki having a better supporting cast will make the team better but it will not magically make Suzuki a PPG guy.

Koivu averaged around 17 minutes a game, 11:21 at 5v5 his last season in Montreal. Matchup-wise, he was 2C to Plekanec and got easier matchups. One of the major issues with moving off of Koivu and going with Gomez is that Koivu was actually pretty great in that role, especially at 5v5.

Suzuki is averaging around 21 minutes a game (9th among forwards), 15 minutes 5v5. Forget 1st line C, those kind of minutes are rarely played by non-elite forwards, and those who do have support from other lines.

Its not about QoT as much as quality of minutes when he's not on the ice. This is an issue with a lot of really bad teams. So again, we don't really know what Suzuki is without putting him in a position to succeed.

 

[The Great Weal]

You aren't winning the Cup with Suzuki as your #1C. Caufield-Suzuki-Slafkovsky is a fine 2nd line but it's not a real first.

Habs were 3 games away from winning the cup with Suzuki as the #1C. How is this a "fine" 2nd line? Name the NHL teams that aren't spreading out their best players that have a better 2nd line than this line. I'm not denying that we need a legit top 10 forward in the league to be a cup contender but man you'd think the guys we have are all bums right now with the way you're talking.

People have a very hard time understanding that a lack of support will result in poor production.

 

[Nicko999]

Habs were 3 games away from winning the cup with Suzuki as the #1C. How is this a "fine" 2nd line? Name the NHL teams that aren't spreading out their best players that have a better 2nd line than this line. I'm not denying that we need a legit top 10 forward in the league to be a cup contender but man you'd think the guys we have are all bums right now with the way you're talking.

People have a very hard time understanding that a lack of support will result in poor production.

He is playing with Caufield and Slafkovsky... not exactly bums. His production is that of a #2C. I don't care we were 3 wins away from the Cup in a abnormal year where we didn't play an American team until the semi finals. We lost badly to the Lightning.

Honestly there is nothing more I would like than the team providing Suzuki with the support he needs. But there is absolute nothing that tells me he is superior to Koivu or Plekanec, good #2C we've had over the years.

 

[The Great Weal]

He is playing with Caufield and Slafkovsky... not exactly bums. His production is that of a #2C. I don't care we were 3 wins away from the Cup in a abnormal year where we didn't play an American team until the semi finals. We lost badly to the Lightning.

Caufield is having a down year and Slaf despite significant improvement has 20 points in 49 games which isn't top 6 production let alone first-line. Not to mention that there is little to no support from the backend offensively. Doesn't matter if you don't care, we were 3 games away from a cup with Suzuki as our best player after Price, he's definitely good enough to be a top line player on a cup contender. The guy had nearly double the production of the 2nd leading scorer on the team, he's had zero support for most of his time here.

I don't see the Mark Streit/Andrei Markov type defensemen feeding Suzuki the puck the way that those guys fed Plekanec/Koivu. If you simply refuse to watch this team its fine, but it's not even a matter of opinion to say that Suzuki isn't better than those guys, it's just being flat out wrong.

 

[Rozz]

You're so right , winning a meaningless game on a cold February night is way more important than ever winning a cup or having a great entertaining team to watch , honestly who cares about cups or seeing talent on the roster when you have a chance to beat the caps on a cold tuesday night!

it will always amaze me how many people cannot see the forest for the tree, so to speak. Unfortunately, some people are very short sighted and cannot grasp the the concept of 1 step back to take 2 steps forward.. no pain/ no gain....

its not that we want our team to lose, but the way in which the nhl system is set up requires some losing years to restock your team with the talent required to win the cup.

it sucks, but hey at least some of us understand....and those that don't... well I guess they'll just have to suffer through this rebuild with nothing to cheer for.

 

[malcb33]

Habs were 3 games away from winning the cup with Suzuki as the #1C. How is this a "fine" 2nd line? Name the NHL teams that aren't spreading out their best players that have a better 2nd line than this line. I'm not denying that we need a legit top 10 forward in the league to be a cup contender but man you'd think the guys we have are all bums right now with the way you're talking.

People have a very hard time understanding that a lack of support will result in poor production.

That team was also carried by Price and the Defence who were all playing at a very high level.

Maybe one of the goalie prospects gets to that level, but IMO it's not likely, so you're going to have to balance it out with more scoring to be successful. I like Suzuki as a player but feel it's going to be tough to truly compete consistently with him as our 1C.

 

[Nicko999]

Caufield is having a down year and Slaf despite significant improvement has 20 points in 49 games which isn't top 6 production let alone first-line. Not to mention that there is little to no support from the backend offensively. Doesn't matter if you don't care, we were 3 games away from a cup with Suzuki as our best player after Price, he's definitely good enough to be a top line player on a cup contender. The guy had nearly double the production of the 2nd leading scorer on the team, he's had zero support for most of his time here.

I don't see the Mark Streit/Andrei Markov type defensemen feeding Suzuki the puck the way that those guys fed Plekanec/Koivu. If you simply refuse to watch this team its fine, but it's not even a matter of opinion to say that Suzuki isn't better than those guys, it's just being flat out wrong.

I know he gets treated like shit in here but Mike Matheson is more than good offensively.
Until a week ago, Habs had the most goals by D tied with Colorado so I don't know how you can say Suzuki doesn't get help from the backend. I agree there is no one like Markov to make the quick transition but to be fair the general missed half the season but didn't stop Plekanec to hit the 70 pts mark in 09-10.

I obviously see Suzuki hitting 70 pts especially with more help but that still does not make him a #1C on a Cup contending team.

 

[Sorinth]

I mean you don't have to look at Koivu, just look at Suzuki's season before and after, Caufield starts scoring and Suzuki starts going ~ppg. Was the same last year and the year before. It's pretty normal that if your linemates are scoring you will get more points. And at the end of the day Suzuki hasn't had that much help the past 2 seasons, having the next most productive players at 38 and 43 points. Nobody puts up ppg numbers when their linemates aren't even hitting 50.

That's not an excuse for Suzuki, better, more consistent production from him would mean more points for his linemates so it works in both directions, but you do have to look at the delta production. And it's not just linemates, it's the same with the PP, like sure if Suzuki was better then the PP would also do better, but if it strictly talking can Suzuki hit PPG numbers then you can look at the PP and say if Matheson get's replaced by an elite PP QB then Suzuki's will get more points on the PP. And arguably the same even goes with the PK, if we get better 3rd/4th liners that can PK then we can offload some of those hard minutes as well as the ES D-zone faceoff responsibility which would have Suzuki produce more without actually being an improved player.

And finally development/improvement isn't strictly age related, it's hard to predict when players will plateau as players. Some plateau as teenagers and end up as draft busts some grow slowly year over year and end up with their best seasons in their late 20s early 30s. So far Suzuki has improved his ppg numbers every season. Nobody knows when that will actually stop.

That team was also carried by Price and the Defence who were all playing at a very high level.

Maybe one of the goalie prospects gets to that level, but IMO it's not likely, so you're going to have to balance it out with more scoring to be successful. I like Suzuki as a player but feel it's going to be tough to truly compete consistently with him as our 1C.

So what?

There's a big difference in saying a team can't win with a player as your #1 center and saying a player can't carry the team without any support and win.

 

[The Great Weal]

That team was also carried by Price and the Defence who were all playing at a very high level.

Maybe one of the goalie prospects gets to that level, but IMO it's not likely, so you're going to have to balance it out with more scoring to be successful. I like Suzuki as a player but feel it's going to be tough to truly compete consistently with him as our 1C.

Well Suzuki was the 2nd best player after Price but I never said Suzuki can be your best player on a cup contender.

I know he gets treated like shit in here but Mike Matheson is more than good offensively.
Until a week ago, Habs had the most goals by D tied with Colorado so I don't know how you can say Suzuki doesn't get help from the backend.

Matheson is complete dogshit and if you watch a game and see him on a powerplay, you'll know that his point totals don't reflect him.

So you think Kovacevic/Lindstrom/Barron who have 15 goals combined are helping Suzuki produce right? It must be why one of them got waived, one got sent down, and the other is a healthy scratch. The Habs dmen collectively have 94 points, the Avs dmen collectively have 146 points. If you genuinely think both groups of defensemen are helping out their forwards equally then I don't really know what to say.

I agree there is no one like Markov to make the quick transition but to be fair the general missed half the season but didn't stop Plekanec to hit the 70 pts mark in 09-10.

I obviously see Suzuki hitting 70 pts especially with more help but that still does not make him a #1C on a Cup contending team.

So why did he not do it again if he's capable of scoring 70 points without support?

Suzuki is already on pace for 70 on this sad sack of shit of a team so he can score around 80 points if not more on a team that can support him.

 

[McGees]

Calgary and Caps are joining the battle for bottom 6...
so basically 6 teams we are battling with.

must lose game.

 

[Nicko999]

Matheson is complete dogshit and if you watch a game and see him on a powerplay, you'll know that his point totals don't reflect him.

So you think Kovacevic/Lindstrom/Barron who have 15 goals combined are helping Suzuki produce right? It must be why one of them got waived, one got sent down, and the other is a healthy scratch. The Habs dmen collectively have 94 points, the Avs dmen collectively have 146 points. If you genuinely think both groups of defensemen are helping out their forwards equally then I don't really know what to say.

So why did he not do it again if he's capable of scoring 70 points without support?

Suzuki is already on pace for 70 on this sad sack of shit of a team so he can score around 80 points if not more on a team that can support him.

Cmon, we know Matheson is crap defensively but we're talking offensively here. If you don't think the points reflect his play you really are blinded due to your hatred towards him.

As for the other D-men, I agree with you. Very flukey production that will likely get back to normal in the second half.

As for the last point, maybe he could. Let him first hit 70 then we can hope/dream for 80. Nick is really one of the few bright spot on this team. He is an elite #2C.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Price..................................covered over so many of our troubles, it was known league wide. All the while Mol$on was extending clowns like Bergevin and Therrien........

There was NO winning culture riding a goalie............most of us knew it.....everyone knows the reality, that it has to be painful for a few years, before you can enter the winners circle, and even then ask the Leafs it does not guarantee playoffs success.

As much as people hate to admit it, another top 5 pick has to be our goal.
Sad..........patience is hard to exercise.

Tragic that we never really built a good team behind Price. We should’ve won some cups in that era. Wrong GM at the wrong time.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Sooooo…
Odds on Gignac becoming this years Belzile x RHP, plays out of his mind, tank ruiner?

I have mixed expectations towards Gignac. I wish for him to have a good game, like a goal and an assist. But not enough for a win cuz I wanna habs to tank. Some could hate Gignac for that reason, if he plays too good cuz he's boosted by his nhl sniff. Message is play enough entertained but no anti tanker.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

It doesn't work that way... Koivu went from #1C with the Habs to #2C with the Ducks with better offensive cast. Despite that, his production remained the same. 50 pts (65 games) in 08-09 with MTL, 52 pts (71 games) in 09-10 with Anaheim.
Didn't affect Getzlaf's production as well.

Suzuki having a better supporting cast will make the team better but it will not magically make Suzuki a PPG guy.

The year range of Koivu change the reading of the stats. Koivu with the Ducks he was 34y +when Suzuki as a second center would happen when he's 26, not 34. satisticly facing less opposition he could increase his numbers by 5% or 10%. Age is not a factor at 26 but is a factor at 34.