Speculation: The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

No, he is a special talent and he still needs a friggin metrocard to get on the subway, but that talent DOES make him special.

Well if that's the case, about a 1/3 of the league is special then because there are TONS of players with great speed and terrible hockey sense.

When Kreider ultimately proves me right, barring injury, I am going laugh in your face, and I will not let it slide the way I did when I was almost singlehandedly proven right about Miller last year.

What did I say about Miller that you had to prove me right? Find the quote or quit bringing up things that have nothing to do with my statements.

To the extent you have asked for it repeatedly, and deserve it, be afraid, be very afraid, that I am going to ridicule your sorry ass for the scorn you seem intent upon derisively throwing at me, particularly as to Kreider.

Oh please, if Kreider explodes into the player you think he is I'll be more than happy to face your wrath of smiley's.

If Kreider doesn't thrive under AV, what's your next excuse going to be? I'm guessing it'll be something along the lines of "Torts permanently ruined Kreider".

Instead of saying, politely, respectfully, like other posters, 'hey Bern, think you're going a bit too far with the whole Keon/Bure thing?' and respectfully agreeing to disagree, you gotta, in your own way, be adamant --- which is fine, that is your right --- but then you insist on the insults and a posture of arrogance.

I don't see any other poster here blaming Torts for Kreider's inability to keep a roster spot.

I did see young guys like Hagelin, Stepan, McDonagh, and Moore thrive under Torts. I saw Brassard play his best hockey of his life under Torts. I saw MZA become a regular under Torts.

Kreider wasn't special in Boston. He wasn't special in the AHL. He wasn't special here in NY. Stop the nonsense.

Be worried, Kreider is gonna make me look good, you look bad, and I will make sure you get your verbal comeuppance.

That's fine.

Torts was part of the problem not the solution.

Torts lead this team farther than any other coach in NY over the last 2 decades. And he's done so without compromising the teams goal of developing young players while staying competitive.

Wrong. That much speed and that good a shot DOES make you special.
It does not make you a sure thing, but that is a different story.

Attributes don't make you special. Learning how to utilize those skills and applying them consistently, makes you special.

Wrong! THAT is 1 billion percent Torts fault. The player obviously has gifted mechanics, so why is he slow to react? In a construct where it is given he never reacted too slowly previously, could it possibly be Torts screwing with his head, along w/other players.

Torts screwing with his head?

Why did Kreider suck ass in Hartford then? Was that because of Torts too?

In the immediate sense, ownership/mgmt is to blame for allowing Torts to be such a control freak/dictator. In the bigger picture, consumers -- we fans -- share this blame because we did not tell Dolan to show Torts the door, even though Slats preferred to give Torts enough rope and play like Pilate, instead of growing a pair w/Torts.

This is nonsense. Just, absolute nonsense.

No he proved he deserved more than bottom 6. He did not prove if given top 6 he would not make mistakes, but it is where he needed to be to max develop in shortest period of time.

How did he prove that? By his defensive misreads? By his lack of consistency? By being 2 steps behind the play?

Ever wonder why you have to keep explaining your rationale in every single thread you post in? Nobody ever agrees with you. It's you against the world. Always.

When Kreider proves to be the stud you've been claiming he is, then I'll be happy to bow down to you and accept whatever condescending punishment you think is appropriate. But as of right now, he hasn't proven anything, so I don't know why you're reluctant to accept what should be rightfully coming your way. Stop the double-standards and accept the reality of the situation until, until, you are proven right. (Which we all know you won't).

 

[KingWantsCup]

Gut feeling but at this point I don't think there's any way Stepan doesn't hold out. He'll miss part of training camp and that will be enough to scare Rangers brass into upping their offer.

 

[Rangers ftw]

I agree with Boom Boom. Kreider have the tools to be great, but it was his own "fault" that he didn't succeed last season, not Torts.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Gut feeling but at this point I don't think there's any way Stepan doesn't hold out. He'll miss part of training camp and that will be enough to scare Rangers brass into upping their offer.

I think sitting at home and not getting paid a cent will scare Stepan more than anything else.

He'll get the 2 year bridge deal. He has no leverage here.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

I agree with Boom Boom. Kreider have the tools to be great, but it was his own "fault" that he didn't succeed last season, not Torts.

I probably sound like I'm anti-Kreider, but it couldn't be further from the truth. I just refuse to by into the idea that a head coach refused to let a kid thrive because of his ego. That's baloney.

I think sitting at home and not getting paid a cent will scare Stepan more than anything else.

He'll get the 2 year bridge deal. He has no leverage here.

Exactly. Not only the money either. Stepan will be missing a lot more than money by staying home. You have to figure not being allowed to participate with your peers is going to have an effect on him, somehow.

There aren't enough poker players on our forum.

 

[JohnC]

Might as well add some more good news

@JimCerny: yes his shoulder is perfectly fine now RT @jimbro83: @JimCerny does Stralman seem healthy? Lucic annihilated him pretty good in playoffs

https://twitter.com/JimCerny/status/373481711557820416

I'll believe it when I see it!!!

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Krieder and Torts both deserve some blame, it's not one sided. Krieder should have made more of an attempt to play the role the coaches asked him to play, on the other hand Torts needed to utilize his skill set more and give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Thirty One]

Respectfully disagree.
You move him up to better lines because it is the fastest way to accelerate development of Kreider in the shortest period of time. Yes, he will make mistakes, but he will improve with enough minutes.

And how is that not putting his needs above the team?

 

[Tawnos]

Krieder and Torts both deserve some blame, it's not one sided. Krieder should have made more of an attempt to play the role the coaches asked him to play, on the other hand Torts needed to utilize his skill set more and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Players need to earn the benefit of the doubt, not be entitled to it.

 

[Thirty One]

https://twitter.com/StuBickel/status/373526397387419649

Back to NYC in the a.m. Huge thanks to @XLATHLETE Karn Skating Dynamics @MinnTopTeam and Kevin Ziegler for all their help this offseason!

Look out NHL!

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

https://twitter.com/StuBickel/status/373526397387419649



Look out NHL!

He will be the most improved in camp lmao. Imagine if he makes the Rangers with AV as coach.

 

[Raspewtin]

Stu Bickel wins Norris this year, book it.

 

[bernmeister]

Well if that's the case, about a 1/3 of the league is special then because there are TONS of players with great speed and terrible hockey sense.

What did I say about Miller that you had to prove me right? Find the quote or quit bringing up things that have nothing to do with my statements.

Oh please, if Kreider explodes into the player you think he is I'll be more than happy to face your wrath of smiley's.

If Kreider doesn't thrive under AV, what's your next excuse going to be? I'm guessing it'll be something along the lines of "Torts permanently ruined Kreider".

I don't see any other poster here blaming Torts for Kreider's inability to keep a roster spot.

I did see young guys like Hagelin, Stepan, McDonagh, and Moore thrive under Torts. I saw Brassard play his best hockey of his life under Torts. I saw MZA become a regular under Torts.

Kreider wasn't special in Boston. He wasn't special in the AHL. He wasn't special here in NY. Stop the nonsense.

That's fine.

Torts lead this team farther than any other coach in NY over the last 2 decades. And he's done so without compromising the teams goal of developing young players while staying competitive.

Attributes don't make you special. Learning how to utilize those skills and applying them consistently, makes you special.

Torts screwing with his head?

Why did Kreider suck ass in Hartford then? Was that because of Torts too?

This is nonsense. Just, absolute nonsense.

How did he prove that? By his defensive misreads? By his lack of consistency? By being 2 steps behind the play?

Ever wonder why you have to keep explaining your rationale in every single thread you post in? Nobody ever agrees with you. It's you against the world. Always.

When Kreider proves to be the stud you've been claiming he is, then I'll be happy to bow down to you and accept whatever condescending punishment you think is appropriate. But as of right now, he hasn't proven anything, so I don't know why you're reluctant to accept what should be rightfully coming your way. Stop the double-standards and accept the reality of the situation until, until, you are proven right. (Which we all know you won't).

I dispute nearly all of this post, and I'm not going to repeat myself.

After a suitable period of time, an ongoing Kreider thread to keep tabs on his performance is fine. When we have enough of a sample, not just a couple of games to be hot or cold, truth will prevail, and we will see who has bragging rights.

The bold should be the first post in that new thread.
Be very, very afraid.
Kreider will make me look good, barring injury.
The whole board is witness to it.
Then there will not be enough crow for you to eat. ....

Til then, let's give the mods a break and no more constant rehash of Kreider.

 

[bernmeister]

And how is that not putting his needs above the team?

I believe it was RangerBoy who said to effect how team needed Kreider, his speed, his shot, his potential to be actualized (paraphrasing that last one).

You are adamant about insisting the needs of the team require one player be subjugated for the good of the team, and banished to the last line by my way or the highway Torts. The reality, as RB and others noted, is the opposite. The good of the team is accelerated best with fastest route for CK development. But that would have required Torts not being a dictator, and Kreider on top 6 minutes.

 

[bernmeister]

Stu Bickel wins Norris this year, book it.

good one.

 

[pld459666]

And how is that not putting his needs above the team?

I think accelerating his development IS a team need.

The Rangers are lacking a top 6 scorer from the LW. A player with size. Kreider is that player.

getting him going as a scoring winger is not looking to put his needs ahead of the teams, but rather it's looking to fast track a player to a certain role that has been projected to play a certain role.

I believe they go hand in hand.

 

[Thirty One]

Obviously it would be in the Rangers best interest if Kreider were to develop into the player he can be.

I don't think that giving a player struggling mightily more ice time is a failsafe way of accomplishing that.

I've made this point several times before, but in the 19 AHL games before the season started he had 1 goal and 1 assist. Tortorella wasn't there. But his struggles are still Tortorella's fault.

 

[Thirty One]

Kreider's 19 AHL games before NHL season:
1 goal, 1 assist, 2 points

Kreider's 15 AHL games after Torts' guidance and mentoring:
7 goals, 4 assists, 11 points

Torts! Torts! Torts!

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

I think accelerating his development IS a team need.

The Rangers are lacking a top 6 scorer from the LW. A player with size. Kreider is that player.

getting him going as a scoring winger is not looking to put his needs ahead of the teams, but rather it's looking to fast track a player to a certain role that has been projected to play a certain role.

I believe they go hand in hand.

Accelerating his development at who's expense? The coaches? The player who's sitting in place of Kreider? The fans? Owner?

Where the hell did earning your spot go? Do you believe a 'talent' should be coddled and given opportunities without proving they deserve it? Because that's what it sure as hell sounds like.

I've seen enough high profile prospects **** the bed, despite all the generous opportunity's they were gift-wrapped with. Call me crazy, or old-school, but I think it's the players job to earn a spot, rather than be given one.

Kreider hasn't earned an opportunity. And despite being given one, he didn't do enough to keep his roster spot. There were players who, unfortunately, brought more to the team than he did last season.

Hopefully he got to train some more this summer. Hopefully he comes into camp better prepared. Hopefully he can do enough to keep a roster spot. But if he doesn't, that shouldn't mean we're going to play him regardless, just because of his draft pedigree or potential.

I'm sick and tired of this lazy, ass-backwards thinking on these boards that want to reward players who ultimately don't deserve it.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

Stu Bickel wins Norris this year, book it.

Lady Byng and Bill Masterton

 

[Thirty One]

Stu's going to be the first player to lead the league in penalty minutes and win the Lady Byng.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Players need to earn the benefit of the doubt, not be entitled to it.

Yes, but he could have been given opportunities sparingly that would have allowed him to earn it much more effectively than how he was used. I was one of the people who most adamantly voiced the opinion of Kreider needing to earn his chances during the season. I still believe that, but you can also do a little bit to help a guy in that situation and Torts did not.

One of the problems with Torts intensity is that he views every game as a playoff game, not necessarily a bad thing, but the regular season is a time to take a few risks and see what happens. He wasn't really willing to do that.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yes, but he could have been given opportunities sparingly that would have allowed him to earn it much more effectively than how he was used. I was one of the people who most adamantly voiced the opinion of Kreider needing to earn his chances during the season. I still believe that, but you can also do a little bit to help a guy in that situation and Torts did not.

One of the problems with Torts intensity is that he views every game as a playoff game, not necessarily a bad thing, but the regular season is a time to take a few risks and see what happens. He wasn't really willing to do that.

Does that include a 48 game season where your team is supposed to be one of the favorites? Try again.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Does that include a 48 game season where your team is supposed to be one of the favorites? Try again.

It includes any season, are you trying to say that down 2 or 3 goals in the 3rd period of a game where the team isn't showing much would be a bad time to try Krieder in different situations? Instead of playing Boyle every other shift? Did I say big moments in big games? Try again.

 

[Colby]

Great season preview write-up of the Rangers over at Shutdown Line.

When looking at these numbers, there are plenty of reasons to feel confident about htis season if you're a Rangers fan. They have most of their key pieces returning and all indications are that they were a pretty good team that had trouble scoring. With talents like Rick Nash, Derek Stepan and Derick Brassard up front, they should be slightly better at even strength this year. The power play is another story, as the Rangers ranked in the bottom third of the NHL in both power play efficiency and shots per 60 minutes.

I also loved the Benoit Pouliot signing. He has been one of the more efficient offensive players in the league for years when it comes to producing relative to his ice time. This should give the Rangers some much needed forward depth and help them early in the season with Hagelin & Callahan hurt.

The Rangers are a team that's good enough to win this division. They have talent up front and on defense, elite goaltending and just acquired one of the best coaches in the league. Getting through the first couple of months without Callahan will be a huge test but if they can get to December with a decent record, they could go on to be one of the Top five teams in the East.

Full blog post can be found here: http://www.shutdownline.com/hurrica...e-metropolitan-division-new-york-rangers.html