Speculation: The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

[Thirty One]

I feel like this was one if the shortest off seasons I've experienced.

2004 was the longest

 

[OverTheCap]

What often gets lost in the Kreider discussion is that power forwards take longer to develop, and they can be wildly inconsistent in their first few years in the NHL.

Last summer, many Rangers fans were predicting that Kreider would score 20-25+ goals in his first full season in the NHL, and I always felt it was unreasonable. It took about 3-4 seasons before power forwards such as Backes and Lucic started to put it together offensively. Hartnell and Simmonds also come to mind as power forwards who had quite a few seasons under their belt before they broke the 20-goal barrier.

 

[aufheben]

I feel like this was one if the shortest off seasons I've experienced.

Perhaps the lack of a big acquisition? I'm not sure if brining a coach in is the same as signing Gaborik or trading for Nash. I know I spent all of last summer daydreaming of Kreider-xxx-Nash making lives miserable for opposing defenders.

I don't see why it matters how Torts handled Kreider at this point; Torts is gone, and Kreider can prove himself this year. I can already see "AV gives Kreider too much freedom!1!".

 

[Tawnos]

What often gets lost in the Kreider discussion is that power forwards take longer to develop, and they can be wildly inconsistent in their first few years in the NHL.

Last summer, many Rangers fans were predicting that Kreider would score 20-25+ goals in his first full season in the NHL, and I always felt it was unreasonable. It took about 3-4 seasons before power forwards such as Backes and Lucic started to put it together offensively. Hartnell and Simmonds also come to mind as power forwards who had quite a few seasons under their belt before they broke the 20-goal barrier.

You're right. You know what else is true about those guys?

None of them were top-6 players.

 

[JohnC]

Perhaps the lack of a big acquisition? I'm not sure if brining a coach in is the same as signing Gaborik or trading for Nash. I know I spent all of last summer daydreaming of Kreider-xxx-Nash making lives miserable for opposing defenders.

Really? I was foaming at the mouth thinking about Nash-Richards-Gaborik

Hilarious looking back at it now. Good for maybe a single play all season

 

[Tawnos]

I feel like this was one if the shortest off seasons I've experienced.

Perhaps the lack of a big acquisition? I'm not sure if brining a coach in is the same as signing Gaborik or trading for Nash. I know I spent all of last summer daydreaming of Kreider-xxx-Nash making lives miserable for opposing defenders.

I don't see why it matters how Torts handled Kreider at this point; Torts is gone, and Kreider can prove himself this year.

I think what you're saying about daydreaming is similar to how I'm feeling, which is that I keep wondering what this team is going to look like once they hit the ice. New coach means we have no idea. Too much anticipation means time goes slowly.

As for why it matters about Torts/Kreider, the only way it does is that some people are expecting Kreider to be close to automatic as an NHLer, maybe even a top-6er, under AV. There are those of us who are skeptical* that he's ready for that, no matter who the coach is, and we base it off of what we saw out of him last year.

*disclaimer: this does not mean we're down on his long term future.

 

[aufheben]

Also we didn't have a bitter end to the playoffs this year. Just fizzled out after the Caps series like...a candle in a...waterfall?

 

[Jabroni]

2004 was the longest

I never experienced that one. Became a fan in 2005-2006.

 

[aufheben]

I think what you're saying about daydreaming is similar to how I'm feeling, which is that I keep wondering what this team is going to look like once they hit the ice. New coach means we have no idea. Too much anticipation means time goes slowly.

As for why it matters about Torts/Kreider, the only way it does is that some people are expecting Kreider to be close to automatic as an NHLer, maybe even a top-6er, under AV. There are those of us who are skeptical* that he's ready for that, no matter who the coach is, and we base it off of what we saw out of him last year.

*disclaimer: this does not mean we're down on his long term future.

Either way it depends on how he does this season. You can't put the blame on either when he hasn't even played for AV yet.

 

[Tawnos]

Also we didn't have a bitter end to the playoffs this year. Just fizzled out after the Caps series like...a candle in a...waterfall?

Once the pain wore off from losing to the Devils in OT, in comparison I was way more upset about the way we played in the series against the Bruins.

Either way it depends on how he does this season. You can't put the blame on either when he hasn't even played for AV yet.

Sure you can. It's called theorizing... also known as offseason talk. The real problem is that, if Kreider does well, that isn't proof that the coaching change is the reason why. No way of knowing if he just took the next step on his own.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Unleash Krieder on Traverse!!!

 

[aufheben]

Once the pain wore off from losing to the Devils in OT, in comparison I was way more upset about the way we played in the series against the Bruins.



Sure you can. It's called theorizing... also known as offseason talk.

We'll until the season starts I blame them both.

 

[smoneil]

2004 was the longest

Nah. The longest was that offseason where we got all excited that THIS was going to be the year that Brendl and Lundmark made the team and brought us to the promised land. That effing offseason lasted 5 or 6 years, I think.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

- His AHL performance picked up markedly when he got sent down after his first stint with the Rangers.

- When Kreider got called back up after being sent down his play was much better, including lots of shots on goal and generally looking more assertive.

- Tortorella's usage of Kreider from his second call-up forward was completely indefensible. If Torts felt Kreider still wasn't ready and needed more seasoning, then he could've left him in the AHL to continue to consolidate his good play and build his confidence. If Torts felt Kreider was capable of contributing, then he could've given Kreider 10-15 minutes a night in the top nine. Instead, Tortorella decided to yank Kreider in and out of the lineup while playing him four minutes a night with fourth line scrubs. On the rare night when Kreider got a chance in the top nine, Torts would decide to dump him right back down on the fourth line after one or two shifts (like in Montreal).

1. What does his AHL performance have to do with anything? How does that help the Rangers? If anything, it shows he belonged there last year (will address in #3).

2. I actually somewhat agree with you here. Although I'd categorize Kreider's first stint as embarrassingly bad and his second stint as borderline bad. Still not nearly enough to sway my opinion that, overall, he sucked last season.

3. Here is where you really go down the rabbit hole. Tortorella had said, repeatedly, that hes not very much involved in AHL call-ups. He also said, repeatedly, that Kreider needed to learn a lot about what its like to be a pro. Its not a big jump at all to surmise that Glen Sather and management were the architects for that move - and it highlights a couple of massive blunders - overvaluing Kreider's worth at the time, which a lot of fans have done as well...and, more importantly, the the fact that Sather built a roster so thin on depth that Kreider needed to be yanked up to the big club once again when he should've been continuing to build confidence in the AHL.

 

[haohmaru]

Emminger apparently signed by a KHL team.

Dmitry Chesnokov ‏@dchesnokov 20m
Former #NYR defenseman Steve Eminger has reportedly agreed to terms with #KHL's Admiral (s/t @IgorEronko)

 

[Off Sides]

Theres 100 reasons I can come up with for Torts' firing. Some are good, most are bad. Trying to insinuate I meant Torts got fired solely because of his handling of Kreider is disingenuous. Saying that could've been the straw that broke the camel's back is much more accurate.

Fair enough, I have not been here long enough to really say I have a total handle on everyone's opinions, I apologize for insinuating. It just appeared like the argument being made was that Kreider was somehow to blame, when if anything, and like everything, it was a series of events that led to both Torts firing and Kreider's play last season.

I just don't think it's fair to just say Kreider was not trying, or say it was just the way Torts used him. Everything from his injury to the lack of depth, to Torts, to his generally nonchalant looking play at times.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I just don't think it's fair to just say Kreider was not trying, or say it was just the way Torts used him. Everything from his injury to the lack of depth, to Torts, to his generally nonchalant looking play at times.

I tend to side with the "over thinking" argument, but no matter what, the end result was Kreider skating in mud most of the season.

And I cant give him the benefit of the doubt when he just needed to look no further than JT Miller last season. That kid made a ton more mistakes than Kreider, but he got more icetime. Why? Because Miller's mistakes were made out of aggression.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Emminger apparently signed by a KHL team.

Dmitry Chesnokov ‏@dchesnokov 20m
Former #NYR defenseman Steve Eminger has reportedly agreed to terms with #KHL's Admiral (s/t @IgorEronko)

Good for Spazzy Steve. He did an excellent job as a Ranger. Going to miss his physicality.

 

[haohmaru]

If we're talking player treatment, I'd submit that Torts' inability to get anything at all out of Brad Richards, and his subsequent 4th line stints and getting scratched, contributed more to his dismissal than his handling of Kreider.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

If we're talking player treatment, I'd submit that Torts' inability to get anything at all out of Brad Richards, and his subsequent 4th line stints and getting scratched, contributed more to his dismissal than his handling of Kreider.

Im not sure anybody could've gotten anything out of Brad Richards last season. Richards is a much better example than Kreider on blame that should fall almost squarely on the player.

 

[haohmaru]

Im not sure anybody could've gotten anything out of Brad Richards last season. Richards is a much better example than Kreider on blame that should fall almost squarely on the player.

Totally agree with that assessment. I still bet it was the biggest factor (as far as coach/player goes) in Glen & Co's decision to remove Torts whether it was the players fault or not. I think there were obviously much larger factors than Brad Richards and Kreider in Tortorella's removal.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Comical. Just comical. I come off as overtly negative for 2 reasons:

1. The negative aspects of the team make for better conversation than, say, OMG LUNDQVIST IS A GOD! type of stuff.
2. Sather has given me plenty of ammunition over the years to complain. Its not my fault some of the fan base has become apathetic to that. I never will be.

My suggestion to you is to stop projecting an alternate reality on Kreider. Watch him play the NHL game and formulate an opinion off of that. The Kreider hype has taken on a life of its own, to the point where his stumbling last season could only be explained away by excuses and scapegoats. No NHL coach with a mandate to make the playoffs in a 48 game season would've thrown Kreider to the wolves by giving him 18 minutes a night -- especially considering how unprepared and overwhelmed he looked dealing with the speed of the NHL game.

I hope to God he improves, and takes huge steps this season, but I am dealing with the reality of where is he right now, and not the fantasyland that years of hype have created.

Agree 1000000%. Not from any single poster but this board as a whole. Ive seen people refuse to include him in proposals for many elite talents because of what they believe he can become.

I see Kreider as a decent prospect who COULD become a 2nd liner. Anything on top of that is gravy. There are too many people here who believe he is all but guaranteed to be a 1st liner.

This is his year to put up or shut up. I hope he succeeds because I like him as a player and it would do wonders for the team but I agree with you again BRB about this

but I am dealing with the reality of where is he right now, and not the fantasyland that years of hype have created

 

[Jabroni]

Im not sure anybody could've gotten anything out of Brad Richards last season. Richards is a much better example than Kreider on blame that should fall almost squarely on the player.

Agreed there. Richards is was just bad last year. Torts gave him every opportunity imaginable to get going last year.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Totally agree with that assessment. I still bet it was the biggest factor (as far as coach/player goes) in Glen & Co's decision to remove Torts whether it was the players fault or not. I think there were obviously much larger factors than Brad Richards and Kreider in Tortorella's removal.

I'd bet it certainly played a role. I'd imagine Sather was none too pleased that the player he just gave $60M was nosediving in terms of performance and, perhaps even worse, his once strong relationship with the coach was deteriorating.

 

[Off Sides]

I tend to side with the "over thinking" argument, but no matter what the end result was Kreider skating in mud most of the season.

And I cant give him the benefit of the doubt when he just needed to look no further than JT Miller last season. That kid made a ton more mistakes than Kreider, but he got more icetime. Why? Because Miller's mistakes were made out of aggression.

I agree with that assessment but I think one could also make a argument that Miller's game is different than Kreider's and even if they are both healthy and playing well Miller will probably always looks like the more aggressive player in terms of trying to make plays while Kreider will probably always be the type of player looking to finish the play.

For example using players that we are pretty familiar with, Dubinsky, Callahan, Hagelin look aggressive when they play, Stepan, Gaborik, Anisimov not so much. Callahan looks more aggressive than Nash.

Kreider may not have the vision or even the skills to carry the puck, Miller may have those skills. I would assume the opposite to be true as well, Miller may never have the skill to laser shots past NHL caliber goalies while Kreider most likely does.

I think my opinion of course, Torts was good at harnessing aggression and it fit in with the type of game he wanted his team to play, yet he was somewhat lacking when it came to the less aggressive players who rely more on skill to produce points.