Speculation: The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

[Off Sides]

Who is doing any of that?

I've said from the beginning I think it was just a handful of players that whined about mistreatment. If you ask me for a list of players who I think would perpetuate this cowardly act, Richards and Kreider would be near the top but Im just speculating.

Is that not at least partially trying to pin the Torts firing on Kreider through speculation?

 

[Thirty One]

Is that not at least partially trying to pin the Torts firing on Kreider through speculation?

I suppose, but that's meeting you more than half way.

 

[Off Sides]

Its all or nothing. The reason the Rangers didnt win the Stanley Cup is because of one man. Is it Richards, Kreider, or Tortorella?

Choose wisely.

It's not all because of one of anything, and ultimately it's on Sather and the other front office guys, but chastising people for making excuses for Kreider, I agree Kreider needs to answer to his own play, but on the same token Torts needs to answer for his choices as well without the excuses of the lack of training camp, shortened season and defective roster, none of that was unique to the Rangers.

Management and players alike deserve some part of the blame for the failures just as much as they deserve credit for the successes, but when the GM feels like his team should have played better based on the roster he made, whether he is correct or not, the coach gets fired and it has little if anything to do with how one particular rookie played.

 

[bernmeister]

...

Bern, you're so attached to CK it's actually scaring me a bit.
You keep claiming he's special -- define special for me because I can't see what separates him from most hockey players.
Stamkos is special. Malkin is special. Crosby is special.
On our team, despite the numerous 'good' players, there aren't many special players. Lundqvist is a special player.

Those are not just special, but elite.
Can be special w/o being elite.

CK is just another ****ing prospect [...]

No, he is a special talent and he still needs a friggin metrocard to get on the subway, but that talent DOES make him special.

who, unfortunately, has had people like you make one stupid statement after another. It's reached a point where CK is going to fall short of expectations.

When Kreider ultimately proves me right, barring injury, I am going laugh in your face, and I will not let it slide the way I did when I was almost singlehandedly proven right about Miller last year.

To the extent you have asked for it repeatedly, and deserve it, be afraid, be very afraid, that I am going to ridicule your sorry ass for the scorn you seem intent upon derisively throwing at me, particularly as to Kreider.

Instead of saying, politely, respectfully, like other posters, 'hey Bern, think you're going a bit too far with the whole Keon/Bure thing?' and respectfully agreeing to disagree, you gotta, in your own way, be adamant --- which is fine, that is your right --- but then you insist on the insults and a posture of arrogance.

Be worried, Kreider is gonna make me look good, you look bad, and I will make sure you get your verbal comeuppance.

And of course, you're naturally going to blame Torts for his shortcomings,

Torts was part of the problem not the solution.

...instead of looking yourself in the mirror and stating the obvious.

You should follow your own advice about looking in the mirror.

Speed and a good shot doesn't make you special.

Wrong. That much speed and that good a shot DOES make you special.
It does not make you a sure thing, but that is a different story.

I see your and raise you and :, a and, for good measure,

And outside of speed, and a good shot, CK doesn't have much else going for him.

Again wrong. He has a good record; he just hasn't yet had enough pro experience for where he has to go.

Mentally, he still belongs in the AHL.

I disagree, but I understand how someone could honestly want to make a debate on that.

The NHL game is too quick for him. He's slow to react. That's not Torts's fault.

Wrong! THAT is 1 billion percent Torts fault. The player obviously has gifted mechanics, so why is he slow to react? In a construct where it is given he never reacted too slowly previously, could it possibly be Torts screwing with his head, along w/other players.

That's not even CK's fault.

It was not.

Nobody's to blame.

In the immediate sense, ownership/mgmt is to blame for allowing Torts to be such a control freak/dictator. In the bigger picture, consumers -- we fans -- share this blame because we did not tell Dolan to show Torts the door, even though Slats preferred to give Torts enough rope and play like Pilate, instead of growing a pair w/Torts.

Players develop differently

Agreed

...and CK proved last season that, he wasn't ready for every day NHL action.

No he proved he deserved more than bottom 6. He did not prove if given top 6 he would not make mistakes, but it is where he needed to be to max develop in shortest period of time.

Wake up Bern. Wake up

.
Sleep, BBG, you need more sleep.

 

[bernmeister]

Ryan McDonagh spent the first 3 months of his pro career in the AHL. The whole Tortorella and Kreider argument has become tedious. Last season was Kreider's first year pro. McDonagh wasn't lights out in the AHL before getting recalled by the Rangers in January 2011. The AHL is tough league for a player turning pro. Just look at McDonagh. Many people here felt McDonagh hadn't done enough to earn the promotion even though Gordie Clark had indicated a few months earlier McDonagh would get the call up. Clark did a podcast with Cerny and made some comments to the Hockey News. He played better in the NHL than the AHL. Kreider played better in the 2nd half of the season in the AHL. It was a stupid 48 game season in the NHL and Tortorella didn't have much patience for young mistakes. He said that many times about Kreider and Miller. The only thing is the Rangers needed any offense and speed they could get but Kreider wasn't given a real opportunity. It didn't help Kreider was playing with a broken bone in his ankle the first few weeks of the NHL season which he suffered in the AHL right before the lockout ended. When Tortorella needed him and gave Kreider the opportunity,Kreider came through with some big plays. The Rangers need guys who can make big plays. The guy has shown he can make big plays. You can't deny the results. 6 playoff goals and 9 points in 26 career playoff games. He hasn't received big minutes in some of the games.

Thank you.

 

[eco's bones]

Tortorella didn't make many friends in the media. Its not hard to answer a simple question. He would criticize young players for needing to be better professionals. Look in the mirror big boy.

Lozo is right about the Islanders. They didn't replace Streit and have one of the worst goaltending situations in the NHL.

He has Dallas and Anaheim too low. Anaheim is a playoff team.

I can see on an odd occasion a coach blowing up with the media but even sometimes when we win?--it was happening way too often. It can be funny the first time it happens but when it happens too much it gets old real fast.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Is that not at least partially trying to pin the Torts firing on Kreider through speculation?

Theres 100 reasons I can come up with for Torts' firing. Some are good, most are bad. Trying to insinuate I meant Torts got fired solely because of his handling of Kreider is disingenuous. Saying that could've been the straw that broke the camel's back is much more accurate.

 

[bernmeister]

BRB wants Kreider to move his feet and look interested, you take that to means he's supposed to carry his line. Because arguing the points he actually makes is too hard...

Silly, silly...

BRB wants Kreider to move his feet and look interested

Are you saying CK can't/doesn't want
to move his feet?

Saying he's disinterested?

Obviously, the issue is technique. He has to slow up his game to rethink every chess move with Torts, then he's on bottom 6 slowing the paces with likes of Pyatt.

If he was playing w/better lines, that would help on at least one out of 2.

Even besides, he looked good/better when with the swift JT Miller at pivot.

No, the fault is not with CK and yes, the lines make his job easier or more difficult, and that will be the case until proper technique becomes second nature.

Hopefully w/o Torts looking to embarrass the whipping boy, that will now be sooner than later.


Silly, stupid scarecrow.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

You do realize that there is a huge discrepancy between these things right?

Do you ever get tired of knocking the Rangers organization over and over and over?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Please go re-read what I have written. Where did I condone him just throwing his defensive responsibilities to the wind? Maybe he could learn while he is playing considering he would bring something the team needs both now and in the future? Oh the horror!!

This. The negative-in-literally-every-post routine got old months ago. Also the twisting-other-people's-words routine, too.

 

[Boruto]

Usually when there's a long back and forth spanning a page or two, there's a lot of words twisting. There is nothing that screams August like words twisting.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

This. The negative-in-literally-every-post routine got old months ago. Also the twisting-other-people's-words routine, too.

When you escape the cocoon that is your teenage years, you'll eventually realize that most adult conversations revolve around problems, and the Rangers provide plenty of fodder for that. So, if that got old to you, I suggest you stop reading my posts, because I wont be blowing sunshine up your ass anytime soon.

As for your second point, go ahead and provide some examples. I'd really love some. Because, if you want my opinion, your history of posts with very little substance are getting pretty old too.

 

[Thirty One]

Are you saying CK can't/doesn't want
to move his feet?

Saying he's disinterested?

No. I think he was second guessing himself constantly that's and so it looked like he was moving in slow motion sometimes.

But I don't see that as a Torts problem, as he was hardly firing on cylinders in his previous ~20 AHL games.

Obviously, the issue is technique. He has to slow up his game to rethink every chess move with Torts, then he's on bottom 6 slowing the paces with likes of Pyatt.

If he was playing w/better lines, that would help on at least one out of 2.

Moving him up to better lines because he's struggling is an example of putting Kreider's needs over the needs of the team.

Hopefully w/o Torts looking to embarrass the whipping boy, that will now be sooner than later.

Do you serious believe that Tortorella was looking to embarrass Kreider?

 

[Thirty One]

Usually when there's a long back and forth spanning a page or two, there's a lot of words twisting. There is nothing that screams August like words twisting.

I disagree. I don't think all Ranger fans are ugly.

 

[Boruto]

I disagree. I don't think all Ranger fans are ugly.

Anyone remember that girl wearing the white USA jersey on one of the highlights from one of the games from the last 3 years? That was the highlight of all the crowd camera time in the last 10 years.

 

[Thirty One]

Anyone remember that girl wearing the white USA jersey on one of the highlights from one of the games from the last 3 years? That was the highlight of all the crowd camera time in the last 10 years.

I do not.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Do you serious believe that Tortorella was looking to embarrass Kreider?

I think he does, but thats because he loves Kreider. And when you fall in love with a young player that hasn't consistently proven much of anything at the NHL level, it leads to all sorts of wacko arguments.

 

[Boruto]

I think he does, but thats because he loves Kreider. And when you fall in love with a young player that hasn't consistently proven much of anything at the NHL level, it leads to all sorts of wacko arguments.

Michael Del Zotto will become the MVP this season behind Henrik.

 

[bernmeister]

...

No. I think he was second guessing himself constantly that's and so it looked like he was moving in slow motion sometimes.

Yeah, but WHY was he second guessing himself? Never had to previously.
Because Torts was attempting to force him to do things in a rigid way.

But I don't see that as a Torts problem, as he was hardly firing on cylinders in his previous ~20 AHL games.

The AHL is a different issue, and as RangerBoy noted, he had -- whatever he said in the post --- I think it was actual bone chips instead of a bone bruise, or something like that, and he attempted to play through that to some degree.
One last time; Torts made Kreider second guess himself. That is on JT.

Moving him up to better lines because he's struggling is an example of putting Kreider's needs over the needs of the team.

Respectfully disagree.
You move him up to better lines because it is the fastest way to accelerate development of Kreider in the shortest period of time. Yes, he will make mistakes, but he will improve with enough minutes.

Do you serious believe that Tortorella was looking to embarrass Kreider?

Torts, IMO, would look to steamroll anyone not 1,000% on his page.
It's one thing when that player is a f-up like Avery.
It's another thing when it's a gifted prospect who has minimal pro experience, and on strength of raw talent alone, and not pro technique, was able to previously excel. Now he has to learn technique, and make his talent work within that. Fine. But don't go up his head and make him second guess about if each and every single frame of his motion is complying with proper technique.

So yeah, and good bye to the control freak.

 

[Zil]

When you escape the cocoon that is your teenage years, you'll eventually realize that most adult conversations revolve around problems, and the Rangers provide plenty of fodder for that. So, if that got old to you, I suggest you stop reading my posts, because I wont be blowing sunshine up your ass anytime soon.

As for your second point, go ahead and provide some examples. I'd really love some. Because, if you want my opinion, your history of posts with very little substance are getting pretty old too.

I wouldn't be so quick to be throwing around judgments about whose posts have substance and whose don't. Being relentlessly negative isn't necessarily substance, nor is it the same thing as realistic or objective analysis. Those "adult" conversations you're talking about are supposed to consist of a reasonable back and forth working toward a solution, not a stream of condescension-laced vitriol. There's nothing grown up about berating people while ignoring any and all facts that inconvenience your argument.

For example, every time you talk about Kreider you insist that he sucked last year in every possible way until game four against the Bruins. Points I have made that you have consistently failed to address include:

- His AHL performance picked up markedly when he got sent down after his first stint with the Rangers.

- When Kreider got called back up after being sent down his play was much better, including lots of shots on goal and generally looking more assertive.

- Tortorella's usage of Kreider from his second call-up forward was completely indefensible. If Torts felt Kreider still wasn't ready and needed more seasoning, then he could've left him in the AHL to continue to consolidate his good play and build his confidence. If Torts felt Kreider was capable of contributing, then he could've given Kreider 10-15 minutes a night in the top nine. Instead, Tortorella decided to yank Kreider in and out of the lineup while playing him four minutes a night with fourth line scrubs. On the rare night when Kreider got a chance in the top nine, Torts would decide to dump him right back down on the fourth line after one or two shifts (like in Montreal).

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Was going to reply but Zil basically said what I was going to say.

But we're getting a little too personal in here (and I joined in, which I shouldn't have). Let's focus on the team rather than each other.

 

[Stasis]

One of you will be right. The other will be wrong.

Most of us will just be happy this ad nauseum wall of text debating is over, tbh.

 

[Tawnos]

- His AHL performance picked up markedly when he got sent down after his first stint with the Rangers.

- When Kreider got called back up after being sent down his play was much better, including lots of shots on goal and generally looking more assertive.

- Tortorella's usage of Kreider from his second call-up forward was completely indefensible. If Torts felt Kreider still wasn't ready and needed more seasoning, then he could've left him in the AHL to continue to consolidate his good play and build his confidence. If Torts felt Kreider was capable of contributing, then he could've given Kreider 10-15 minutes a night in the top nine. Instead, Tortorella decided to yank Kreider in and out of the lineup while playing him four minutes a night with fourth line scrubs. On the rare night when Kreider got a chance in the top nine, Torts would decide to dump him right back down on the fourth line after one or two shifts (like in Montreal).

Was he really better? Slightly. I remember a player who, instead of looking tentative on every shift as he did earlier, looked tentative on some and assertive on others. In some games, he still looked completely lost. He was still awfully inconsistent, and honestly that included game 4 against the Bruins. I wonder, sometimes, if people just didn't notice the shifts where he was completely brainless because he had shifts where he looked like a legitimate NHLer, even a very good one.

Now, understand something. I'm not criticizing Kreider here. The hallmark of nearly all young players is inconsistency. There is definitely a certain logic that, in important games, the guy you put on the ice is the one who you know you're going to get a certain thing, even if that thing is not as high quality as an inconsistent player's good shifts. And all of the games after Kreider's second call up were important games.

I had a lot of problems with the way Tortorella handled the team last season. The way he handled Kreider wasn't one of them.

By the way, every player projected in our team's top-6, with the exception of Nash, started on the 3rd line or lower when they broke into the league. That even includes Brad Richards. The idea that Kreider isn't going to have to do the same thing is, frankly, ridiculous.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

the season can't start soon enough

 

[Tawnos]

One of you will be right. The other will be wrong.

Most of us will just be happy this ad nauseum wall of text debating is over, tbh.

the season can't start soon enough

I've really been feeling it lately. Watched some highlight packages of Fast, Kristo and Lindberg this morning just to get some hockey in. I think the hiring of a new coach has really made this offseason feel extremely long.

 

[Jabroni]

I've really been feeling it lately. Watched some highlight packages of Fast, Kristo and Lindberg this morning just to get some hockey in. I think the hiring of a new coach has really made this offseason feel extremely long.

I feel like this was one if the shortest off seasons I've experienced.