Confirmed with Link: The new coach of the Philadelphia Flyers is John Tortorella

[mja]

For as long as I live, I will never understand anyone's insistence on divorcing offense and defense from each other in hockey as if they're two completely unconnected things.

 

[deadhead]

I don’t think we can be saying “I thought defense wins games” sarcastically until round 3 and 4. Usually the first round has more goals and then it tightens up.

Or in 7th games.

 

[TheKingPin]

Can’t get past the first round if you can’t score though.

Flyers can’t do that.

The flyers would have no shot. I am more referring to a coaching style. I was excited for a style I saw AV deploy with attacking in waves which would translate to defense. I am not sure what makes it so hard to figure that style out, but hopefully sooner than later.

 

[deadhead]

For as long as I live, I will never understand anyone's insistence on divorcing offense and defense from each other in hockey as if they're two completely unconnected things.

Two different issues, team style of play and player skill/style of play.
Conservative team play will suppress offense (see Islanders) of even the top offensive players.

You can split players into different groups:
The few two way players who excel at both ends, Couts, Barkov, Bergeron, Crosby
The great offensive players who treat defense as an after thought, Kane is the leading example
The great defensive players who are offensively limited
The players who can skate and forecheck but lack skills - PEB

There's a big difference between putting defense first and stifling offense, and requiring offensive players to be responsible defensively, back check aggressively, don't cherry pick, pick up your man on defense, fight to regain possession along the boards.

An aggressive offensive scheme with disciplined players who know how to play (don't get caught with 4 deep on the cycle, don't let players get behind you, etc) can be solid defensively, an aggressive offense with sloppy players will leak goals.

One problem is players tend to get paid more on offensive stats than team wins or good defense, so top offensive players, who often get away with sloppy defense at lower levels (where HCs put winning above development) can be hard to coach.

That's one thing that made G a great player, he never sacrificed his defensive responsibilities to pad his stats.

 

[TheKingPin]

For as long as I live, I will never understand anyone's insistence on divorcing offense and defense from each other in hockey as if they're two completely unconnected things.

They are not separate in hockey. But you still can build a team that has more of the Couts types and sound D coaching that can at least shut down holes and transitions and make a good PK. All that is just defense. Very much agree with offense being a good defense though. I would still like an elite level defender and goalie to rely on though.

 

[Striiker]

Scoring is indisputably the most important part of hockey. It's literally the sole objective of the game and you literally can't win games without it.

That's why the top offensive players will always be worth more than the top defensive players. An individual player just has so much more impact in the offensive zone than defensive.

Focusing on defense is just gifting your opponent control of the game. It's what loser franchises do, since they're run by loser dinosaur GMs.

 

[TheKingPin]

Scoring is indisputably the most important part of hockey. It's literally the sole objective of the game and you literally can't win games without it.

That's why the top offensive players will always be worth more than the top defensive players. An individual player just has so much more impact in the offensive zone than defensive.

Focusing on defense is just gifting your opponent control of the game. It's what loser franchises do, since they're run by loser dinosaur GMs.

Yea in hockey that is certainly true. Football you can separate it completely and the defensive players are highly paid. My point is I’d be ok with either the best offensively minded team and coach or the only or best defensive team. To me, a defensive team is not Thompson and Risto. It would be having high end guys like Matthews, Couts, Point, cirelli on down. Guys that are smart and think the game ahead of others. That translates on offense and defense. Basically I want smart players.

 

[Striiker]

Basically I want smart players.

Well Fletcher clearly doesn't. Almost every NHL player he's added is dumb as a brick and he's gotten rid of some of our smartest players.

Based on his actions, he thinks: Size > toughness > shooting > skating > skill > smarts

 

[deadhead]

If you have less talent than your opponent, it makes sense to be more defensively oriented, b/c if you get into a track meet, you're going to lose 9 out of 10 times. Which is why Hakstol coached that way, he had one line and mediocre D-men who couldn't skate other than Ghost, you can't beat good teams with 4 or 5 players. The Kings stayed in a series against a more talented team that way.

Since you can generate offense off defense (other team controls the puck, but your defense generates a half dozen odd man rushes a game, if you can finish them this can be a winning strategy), it's not simply offense v defense.

And Toronto is exhibit A that great offensive talents simply aren't enough.

TB has a few top skill players (Stamkos, Point, Kucherov), but they started winning consistently in the playoffs when they balanced those skill forwards with physical forwards (first Coleman and Goodrow, this season Paul). Mainstays like Killorn, Cirelli, Palat aren't your flashy offensive players. Nor is Colton, a new addition with similar attributes. And of course, the biggest Defensemen in the NHL.

 

[deadhead]

Well Fletcher clearly doesn't. Almost every NHL player he's added is dumb as a brick and he's gotten rid of some of our smartest players.

Based on his actions, he thinks: Size > toughness > shooting > skating > skill > smarts

Voracek was smart? In what metaverse? Same with Ghost. Both depended on physical skills over hockey IQ.
NAK was dumb. Myers was dumb. Friedman was a cancer (never saw a former teammates get that kind of treatment on his return).

G is a different matter.

Ellis, Atkinson can skate, have skill and lack size.
York, Andrae, Brink are big?

 

[mja]

There's a big difference between putting defense first and stifling offense, and requiring offensive players to be responsible defensively, back check aggressively, don't cherry pick, pick up your man on defense, fight to regain possession along the boards.

So, what you're saying is that it's a good idea to be the team with the puck?

 

[kudymen]

"Haha Voráček doesn't score, he only passes. So many assists and no goals"
Somehow he made over fifty "dumb passes" that lead to his team scoring this year, 40 of the being primary, i.e. being the player who actually found the scorer. Good riddance, so dumb.

The desperation to shit on players who have actually been useful + provided superior plays only beacuse they made Jack Adams masterminds cry is just pathetic.

 

[deadhead]

So, what you're saying is that it's a good idea to be the team with the puck?

It's even better if you can do something with the puck
And best if you don't turn it over and give an inferior team odd man rushes on a regular basis.

 

[mja]

It's even better if you can do something with the puck
And best if you don't turn it over and give an inferior team odd man rushes on a regular basis.

So, in other words, it's a good idea to be the team with the puck?

 

[deadhead]

"Haha Voráček doesn't score, he only passes. So many assists and no goals"
Somehow he made over fifty "dumb passes" that lead to his team scoring this year. Good riddance, so dumb.

He's not "dumb," but he's not hockey smart either, Voracek has great vision offensively, but is a defensive liability 5x5.
Part may be indifference, he likes offense better and often doesn't put out the effort on defense, part may be discipline.

 

[kudymen]

Part may be indifference, he likes offense better

There are various excerpts from interviews (CZ or EN; even shared here IIRC) where he downright refuses this but somehow this authentic urban legend keeps showing up. "Voráček simply likes offense and doesnt care about D" = bullshit.

 

[deadhead]

There are various excerpts from interviews (CZ or EN; even shared here IIRC) where he downright refuses this but somehow this authentic urban legend keeps showing up. "Voráček simply likes offense and doesnt care about D" = bullshit.

Look at his play over the years, he's generally been subpar on defense, the one exception was AV's first season, then he tuned out AV.
So if he isn't indifferent, what's the explanation?

Watching him over the years, I've never seen Voracek bust his hump on the back check consistently, he's out of position at times, rarely fights for the puck in the D-zone, etc. He's not awful, but it's pretty obvious it hasn't been a priority, similar to JVR.

Forwards can get away with that if they have a top defensive center like Couts.

One reason the team struggled this year is with Couts hobbled and then gone, G was game but physically not suited to a defensive role at center, and both Hayes and Frost aren't good on defense.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Look at his play over the years, he's generally been subpar on defense, the one exception was AV's first season, then he tuned out AV.
So if he isn't indifferent, what's the explanation?

Watching him over the years, I've never seen Voracek bust his hump on the back check consistently, he's out of position at times, rarely fights for the puck in the D-zone, etc. He's not awful, but it's pretty obvious it hasn't been a priority, similar to JVR.

Forwards can get away with that if they have a top defensive center like Couts.

One reason the team struggled this year is with Couts hobbled and then gone, G was game but physically not suited to a defensive role at center, and both Hayes and Frost aren't good on defense.

Wasn’t he brought in partially due to his defensive acumen?

 

[swami24]

After the new HC, they need to revamp the strength and conditioning staff and/or program. Too many soft tissue injuries and guys out of shape for the long season

 

[daynus]

i have been all over the map whom I think we are gonna hire. At this point in time, I’m going Rick Tocchet.

 

[Rebels57]

i have been all over the map whom I think we are gonna hire. At this point in time, I’m going Rick Tocchet.

Thats the worst option, so its the most likely.

 

[Juicy Pop]

Next coach? It literally doesn't matter... you can put a squirrel in charge and it won't change much... it might even grant them a few points.

 

[Striiker]

Thats the worst option, so its the most likely.

An awful option, for sure, but I think Torts is probably the worst.

 

[Rebels57]

An awful option, for sure, but I think Torts is probably the worst.

Nah, he's not a good choice, but Torts actually does have a little bit of acumen. He got a lot out of a mediocre Blue Jackets roster for a few seasons. Tocchet is a doofus.

 

[Striiker]

Nah, he's not a good choice, but Torts actually does have a little bit of acumen. He got a lot out of a mediocre Blue Jackets roster for a few seasons. Tocchet is a doofus.