Confirmed with Link: The new coach of the Philadelphia Flyers is John Tortorella

[CBJWerenski8]

Didn’t you guys only win one playoff series during his tenure? I don’t mind the jackets, but the Flyers are in a different tier of expectations among NHL franchises. One playoff series win every 3 or 4 years isn’t enough. Conference finals twice a decade at least for the Flyers is a must. We have all the resources to pay for the people who can make it happen, they are just currently too stupid to find them.

With all due respect, since the 2013 lockout our teams have the same amount of playoff series wins. If you count the bubble play in series', we have one more. Maybe take what you can get right now and adjust expectations accordingly.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I mean, the only team that legitimately tanked in your list is the Leafs. And they still haven't won a single playoff round since 2004.

I don't think any other team deliberately laid out a 10-year suckage plan. They just sucked and got incrementally better all while acquiring high talent players.

The Avs, for example, had 3 top 10 picks.

MacKinnon
Landeskog
Makar

Let's compare that to the Flyers 3 top 10 picks.

Couturier
Patrick
Provorov

The only close comparable is Couturier to Landeskog.

The Flyers could suck again for the next decade, and there's still no guarantee of them landing a franchise player.

But there's no reason why they can't have great players. I'm not sure you're going to get franchise players every draft, but there's no reason why you can't have a legit number one center, winger or defenseman from the draft.

The biggest issue, and it continues to be an issue, is developing players. The Flyers have ZERO clue how to develop players and no, playing a guy on the third or fourth line because they're new to the league isn't conducive to a player's development.

Until the Flyers have a legit development program in place, it doesn't matter who they draft. They need to seriously address the development deficiency that has been a problem for years.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

SanFilippo sure is walking back his story about Fletcher, the consulting firm, and Tortorella, while pretending he's not walking it back.

He's now trying to paint it as Trotz being their 1st choice, and that he never said Torts wasn't Fletcher's 2nd choice. Um, no, the way you presented it at first was that Chuck was against Torts and forced into it.

Also, whereas previously he strongly implied that the consulting firm was in charge of the hire, he's now merely saying that Fletcher initially wasn't a fan of hiring an outside party to assist (no shit, no one loves having third-parties interfere with their jobs). And ASF has nonchalantly pivoted to writing about Chuck being in charge of the hire, and I guess hoping the readers don't notice the change.

As I suspected, it looks like this was a story where a few crumbs of information got extrapolated into a huge exaggeration. And the damage control is, "I never said Torts wasn't Fletcher's 2nd choice after Trotz."

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Sucking for picks is fine if you're willing to suck for close to a decade.
The Pens got lucky (and no lottery), but the Avs took forever, NJ still hasn't made the playoffs, Buffalo is in their 3rd (4th?) rebuild and so on.

A better approach is to just build assets, through trades, smart drafting and player development.
If this means sucking in the short-run and getting a high pick or two fine, but focus on assets, not draft position.

Pissing away assets trying to retool will only set us back further with these idiots who run the show, so it's really a lose lose situation either way, either we get back to mediocrity at best for a few years, or they shit the bed (most likely outcome) and we suck for that long anyways while being Cap strapped, I'm all in favor of a total tear down and rebuild, because I don't think these guys in charge are capable of winning trades and making smart free agent signings

 

[Bigkarl]

Since when did “tanking” come to be defined as not wanting to give up draft capital for garbage like Risto and using young players with upside instead of the Thompson’s and Seelers of the world?

That seems more like basic competence to me than tanking. Is anyone actually advocating for dumping good players in order to draft higher?

 

[freakydallas13]

If you think that tanking won't work for the Flyers, you are admitting this team is basically the Buffalo Sabres.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Since when did “tanking” come to be defined as not wanting to give up draft capital for garbage like Risto and using young players with upside instead of the Thompson’s and Seelers of the world?

That seems more like basic competence to me than tanking. Is anyone actually advocating for dumping good players in order to draft higher?

Because the only way to defend this organization at this point is through disingenuous means.

 

[TheKingPin]

Absolutely - top picks that play like top picks are almost a prerequisite.

Yeah, the Pens tanked too, which is not surprising for an organization that did it before to land Mario.

But the others didn't - Avs, Caps, Oilers, Panthers, Bolts, Hawks. I don't think any of those deliberately tanked.

The Hawks appear to be deliberately "rebuilding" now, which is the modern word for tanking.

The Flyers could go the same route, but they are dead set against it.

So... what to do?

There's no shortage of available talent - Gaudreau, Pastrnak, DeBrincat, Forsberg, Chychrun.

Personally, I don't think Fletcher is able to get out of his own way and make smart NHL moves in the aggregate... but I sincerely hope it works out.

They all knew what they were doing. I don’t think those teams were spending up the cap and trading picks away like we are. That’s not tanking. But just because a team doesnt send out a letter or something does not mean they aren’t tanking. There are teams that are going to be tanking just the same next year like Arizona and Mtl. I was very against tanking and used to make fun of my friends who were pens fans. But it seems to be the most logical way these days. Seeing the pens have 4 of the best players of all time and win a ton of cups just shows that you have to time it right and get lucky but it could be glorious. Imagine having a cup window of nearly 15 years like the pens and Crosby. That would be amazing right now.

It does not pay to acquire assets like those you mentioned. They will tie up you cap and deplete your draft capital which lends to further less cap and less skill. It does not pay to build that way. Either you build from the top end of the draft well by tanking or the bottom of the draft like the blues and bruins.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

With all due respect, since the 2013 lockout our teams have the same amount of playoff series wins. If you count the bubble play in series', we have one more. Maybe take what you can get right now and adjust expectations accordingly.

I know you responded well to someone else, but I think it mislead you. The problem is in the approach and marketing. The Flyers are “blank checks” and splashy moves because that’s how the franchise has always been. You’ll get no arguments from the reasonable people here that the traditional shine is off the Flyers brand. They’ve been floundering for a decade. But we’re not the rank and file.

The Flyers cannot afford to have Columbus expectations. That’s when the brand falls apart.

 

[chethejet]

Torts hates the Pens and this will bring some fire back into to games. The hire is the hire but the Pens games will be much more interesting with Sully and Torts back at it again. Have no idea what happens but as a Pens fan I miss Torts and his pure hatred of the Pens. If the goal is to hire a coach who hates your rival, he's your guy.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I know you responded well to someone else, but I think it mislead you. The problem is in the approach and marketing. The Flyers are “blank checks” and splashy moves because that’s how the franchise has always been. You’ll get no arguments from the reasonable people here that the traditional shine is off the Flyers brand. They’ve been floundering for a decade. But we’re not the rank and file.

The Flyers cannot afford to have Columbus expectations. That’s when the brand falls apart.

One of the franchise's long-defining qualities was its refusal to suck. That they still believe that it's possible to operate like this in the cap era is pretty solid proof that they're in real long-term trouble: No plans, just delusions.

 

[Chinatown88]

I know you responded well to someone else, but I think it mislead you. The problem is in the approach and marketing. The Flyers are “blank checks” and splashy moves because that’s how the franchise has always been. You’ll get no arguments from the reasonable people here that the traditional shine is off the Flyers brand. They’ve been floundering for a decade. But we’re not the rank and file.

The Flyers cannot afford to have Columbus expectations. That’s when the brand falls apart.

 

[Strawberry Fields]

The notion that the Caps (who traded all of Jagr, Lang, Gonchar, AND Bondra by the 2004 trade deadline) and Pens (who almost exclusively dressed rookies and journeymen that same year) never tanked is certainly something.

 

[deadhead]

One of the franchise's long-defining qualities was its refusal to suck. That they still believe that it's possible to operate like this in the cap era is pretty solid proof that they're in real long-term trouble: No plans, just delusions.

Not necessarily. The problem isn't wanting to be competitive, but wanting to be competitive at the cost of the future.

The Flyers have the resources to build an edge in scouting, analytics and development. Fletcher has made a start increasing the investment there, but it was neglected for a decade under Holmgren and Hextall. The fact they ignored the obvious avenue for using their edge in resources, while giving out big contracts to Lavi and AV, and big money FA contracts, showed how backward looking the organization had become.

What good organizations do isn't to tank, but to take advantage of the inevitable down year(s), add a couple top picks but build consistently by adding assets through the draft and on the margins. The Flyer mantra was "make the big splash," not "take the little steps."

The refreshing thing about Torts over AV is that Torts refrained from any announcements about winning now, making the playoffs, competing for a Cup. Rather, he talked about what he was going to do to improve the team, to make players better, not to get better players. I think to him the process is the key, do it right, and results will follow.

 

[Bigkarl]

Not necessarily. The problem isn't wanting to be competitive, but wanting to be competitive at the cost of the future.

The Flyers have the resources to build an edge in scouting, analytics and development. Fletcher has made a start increasing the investment there, but it was neglected for a decade under Holmgren and Hextall. The fact they ignored the obvious avenue for using their edge in resources, while giving out big contracts to Lavi and AV, and big money FA contracts, showed how backward looking the organization had become.

What good organizations do isn't to tank, but to take advantage of the inevitable down year(s), add a couple top picks but build consistently by adding assets through the draft and on the margins. The Flyer mantra was "make the big splash," not "take the little steps."

The refreshing thing about Torts over AV is that Torts refrained from any announcements about winning now, making the playoffs, competing for a Cup. Rather, he talked about what he was going to do to improve the team, to make players better, not to get better players. I think to him the process is the key, do it right, and results will follow.

Hmmm. Crazy how obvious this should be to everyone, and yet there has been a poster on this board who for years called every wasted asset and value loss trade a “nothing burger”

 

[Flyerfan18]

One of the franchise's long-defining qualities was its refusal to suck. That they still believe that it's possible to operate like this in the cap era is pretty solid proof that they're in real long-term trouble: No plans, just delusions.

Very few seem to realize this is a business first and foremost. Fans in seats aren’t as important as the past. If the value of the team continues to grow year to year and stays near the top, it’s a success. Winning and losing is fun but it’s not that important anymore. It’s a corporate setting not a fan base anymore.

This isn’t to suggest they don’t want to win or have the fans happy. It’s just not a priority for most teams anymore. You need a private owner that wants to win before he dies to prioritize the team nowadays.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Not necessarily. The problem isn't wanting to be competitive, but wanting to be competitive at the cost of the future.

The Flyers have the resources to build an edge in scouting, analytics and development. Fletcher has made a start increasing the investment there, but it was neglected for a decade under Holmgren and Hextall. The fact they ignored the obvious avenue for using their edge in resources, while giving out big contracts to Lavi and AV, and big money FA contracts, showed how backward looking the organization had become.

What good organizations do isn't to tank, but to take advantage of the inevitable down year(s), add a couple top picks but build consistently by adding assets through the draft and on the margins. The Flyer mantra was "make the big splash," not "take the little steps."

The refreshing thing about Torts over AV is that Torts refrained from any announcements about winning now, making the playoffs, competing for a Cup. Rather, he talked about what he was going to do to improve the team, to make players better, not to get better players. I think to him the process is the key, do it right, and results will follow.

You keep making this statement about Hextall not putting money into analytics. They had full-time people and they also had quite a few consultants who were never listed on the website because they weren't full time employees. My source on this is one of the consultants.

 

[tucson83]

Very few seem to realize this is a business first and foremost. Fans in seats aren’t as important as the past. If the value of the team continues to grow year to year and stays near the top, it’s a success. Winning and losing is fun but it’s not that important anymore. It’s a corporate setting not a fan base anymore.

This isn’t to suggest they don’t want to win or have the fans happy. It’s just not a priority for most teams anymore. You need a private owner that wants to win before he dies to prioritize the team nowadays.

especially from the covid year, they cant afford lose any more money.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Flyers remind me a bit of Hawks when Wirtz/Pulford didn't want to tank but didn't run team well enough or allow team to actually compete

Spent years chasing "Making playoffs" as motto instead of rebuilding

That is how you end up with god awful hire like Brian Sutter which is honestly what this Torts signing reminds me of

All of those teams tanked though.

They all knew what they were doing. I don’t think those teams were spending up the cap and trading picks away like we are. That’s not tanking. But just because a team doesnt send out a letter or something does not mean they aren’t tanking.

Hawks didn't tank

The Hawks coming out of 04/05 lockout thought the future was Anton Babchuk (1st round), Tuomo Ruutu (1st Round) , Mikhail Yakubov (1st Round), Pavel Vorobiev (1st round), Adam Munro (1st round), Cam Barker (1st round), Jack Skille (1st round) and the ABC line (Tyler Arnason, Mark Bell and Kyle Calder)

Before 04 lockout they signed Jassen Cullimore and Matthew Barnaby then they then threw money at vets during post lockout UFA frenzy including huge Nikolai Khabibulin and Adrian Aucoin deals as well as signing Martin Lapointe and Jim Dowd

People actually thought the Hawks were going to be big coming out of the lockout with people in media talking about a new era of Hawks hockey

That "New" era quickly turned into mess when Wirtz told media during post lockout press conference that he would continue no home games on TV despite lockout damage to league/team and that if fans were upset it didn't matter as only season ticket holders mattered (Once again Wirtz turning away Hawk fanbase with public contempt) and then those UFA's mostly were awful and many of the "Future" of Hawks were busts or out of organization in coming years

Hawks got lucky with Toews and Kane picks. Pens preferring Staal and Blues grabbing Johnson is why Hawks ended up with Toews and Kane well you guys know how that ended up

Hawks were unlucky in 2004 when they completely fell apart when Daze/Thibault got injured and sold on guys like Sullivan and Zhamnov at deadline. After that awful season the Hawks should have been getting Malkin but because the Caps won lottery the Hawks got Cam f***ing Barker instead

It is not a gift or amazing moment to go from drafting Malkin to drafting Cam f***ing Barker!

Sometimes an organization is so terrible it takes luck (Toews/Kane) and being liberated from horrible ownership like Bill Wirtz as well as his minion in Bob Pulford who ran Hawks into ground as his right hand yes man in management interfering or overriding GM decisions when he disagreed with them, or owner didn't like what GM was doing or wanted to do

 

[TheKingPin]

Flyers remind me a bit of Hawks when Wirtz/Pulford didn't want to tank but didn't run team well enough or allow team to actually compete

Spent years chasing "Making playoffs" as motto instead of rebuilding

That is how you end up with god awful hire like Brian Sutter which is honestly what this Torts signing reminds me of




Hawks didn't tank

The Hawks coming out of 04/05 lockout thought the future was Anton Babchuk (1st round), Tuomo Ruutu (1st Round) , Mikhail Yakubov (1st Round), Pavel Vorobiev (1st round), Adam Munro (1st round), Cam Barker (1st round), Jack Skille (1st round) and the ABC line (Tyler Arnason, Mark Bell and Kyle Calder)

Before 04 lockout they signed Jassen Cullimore and Matthew Barnaby then they then threw money at vets during post lockout UFA frenzy including huge Nikolai Khabibulin and Adrian Aucoin deals as well as signing Martin Lapointe and Jim Dowd

People actually thought the Hawks were going to be big coming out of the lockout with people in media talking about a new era of Hawks hockey

That "New" era quickly turned into mess when Wirtz told media during post lockout press conference that he would continue no home games on TV despite lockout damage to league/team and that if fans were upset it didn't matter as only season ticket holders mattered (Once again Wirtz turning away Hawk fanbase with public contempt) and then those UFA's mostly were awful and many of the "Future" of Hawks were busts or out of organization in coming years

Hawks got lucky with Toews and Kane picks. Pens preferring Staal and Blues grabbing Johnson is why Hawks ended up with Toews and Kane well you guys know how that ended up

Hawks were unlucky in 2004 when they completely fell apart when Daze/Thibault got injured and sold on guys like Sullivan and Zhamnov at deadline. After that awful season the Hawks should have been getting Malkin but because the Caps won lottery the Hawks got Cam f***ing Barker instead

It is not a gift or amazing moment to go from drafting Malkin to drafting Cam f***ing Barker!

Sometimes an organization is so terrible it takes luck (Toews/Kane) and being liberated from horrible ownership like Bill Wirtz as well as his minion in Bob Pulford who ran Hawks into ground as his right hand yes man in management interfering or overriding GM decisions when he disagreed with them, or owner didn't like what GM was doing or wanted to do

Well they did pick 7, 3, 1 plus early to mid round picks before and after. I’m not concerned with intention, just results.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Very few seem to realize this is a business first and foremost. Fans in seats aren’t as important as the past. If the value of the team continues to grow year to year and stays near the top, it’s a success. Winning and losing is fun but it’s not that important anymore. It’s a corporate setting not a fan base anymore.

This isn’t to suggest they don’t want to win or have the fans happy. It’s just not a priority for most teams anymore. You need a private owner that wants to win before he dies to prioritize the team nowadays.

You do know this is a gate revenue driven league, right?

Corporations/companies aren’t sinking money into this shithole either.

 

[The don godfather]

Congrats flyers fans you guys are going be very competitive and hard to play against. From Bruins fan.

 

[Rebels57]

Pissing away assets trying to retool will only set us back further with these idiots who run the show, so it's really a lose lose situation either way, either we get back to mediocrity at best for a few years, or they shit the bed (most likely outcome) and we suck for that long anyways while being Cap strapped, I'm all in favor of a total tear down and rebuild, because I don't think these guys in charge are capable of winning trades and making smart free agent signings

Correct - starts with firing every single member and advisor of management...which doesnt happen until Scott is replaced

 

[TheKingPin]

It’s nice that we have other fans saying you guys are going to be in better shape vs after AV when things got very concerning. If we have to have management that wants to go for it, at least it’s with a competent coach.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I know you responded well to someone else, but I think it mislead you. The problem is in the approach and marketing. The Flyers are “blank checks” and splashy moves because that’s how the franchise has always been. You’ll get no arguments from the reasonable people here that the traditional shine is off the Flyers brand. They’ve been floundering for a decade. But we’re not the rank and file.

The Flyers cannot afford to have Columbus expectations. That’s when the brand falls apart.

I think you shouldn't worry nor pretend to know what Columbus expectations are.