Confirmed with Link: The new coach of the Philadelphia Flyers is John Tortorella

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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Deady, if you say Laberge was bad injury luck one more time, I'm sending you the bill for my nervous breakdown. He wasn't very good in his D-1. He wasn't very good the first half of his Draft year. He wasn't very good before the concussion in his D+1. Pascal Laberge randomly got hot for two months once and he timed it well. That's the entire story.
So you're giving less credit to the scouting than moi?
Ironically, now that Hextall's long gone, his best later round picks are arriving, N Cates, Laczynski, Fedotov, Lycksell, Hogberg, Zamula
But there's a long list of middle round picks that couldn't even play well enough to displace VdV.

10 picks in the top 40, Provorov, Sanheim, TK and maybe Frost will start next year. With an outside shot that Ratcliffe might make it.
That's scouting, not development.
 
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JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
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So you're giving less credit to the scouting than moi?
Ironically, now that Hextall's long gone, his best later round picks are arriving, N Cates, Laczynski, Fedotov, Lycksell, Hogberg, Zamula
But there's a long list of middle round picks that couldn't even play well enough to displace VdV.

10 picks in the top 40, Provorov, Sanheim, TK and maybe Frost will start next year. With an outside shot that Ratcliffe might make it.
That's scouting, not development.

No, one pick is not how you evaluate anything. Nor is baking in development to drafting. You’re treating every draft pick as if this was always the outcome those players would have. That’s indefensible.

Do you not see how you constantly get caught in this cycle of “BUT THESE ARE THE REAL PROSPECTS” as they churn? You’re still doing it here today with Hextall acquisitions. Now the Fletcher picks are better because their time to fail hasn’t hit yet.

For the record, the only top 50ish picks I had a major problem with were Ratcliffe and Ginning. Unless I’m forgetting someone, which is always possible. I did not particularly want Laberge, but it was late enough that my complaints were muted. There’s really not much difference between 40th and 20th on most consensus draft boards. They’re the talented guys with major questions and you pick your favorite.
 

Chinatown88

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deadhead

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No, one pick is not how you evaluate anything. Nor is baking in development to drafting. You’re treating every draft pick as if this was always the outcome those players would have. That’s indefensible.

Do you not see how you constantly get caught in this cycle of “BUT THESE ARE THE REAL PROSPECTS” as they churn? You’re still doing it here today with Hextall acquisitions. Now the Fletcher picks are better because their time to fail hasn’t hit yet.

For the record, the only top 50ish picks I had a major problem with were Ratcliffe and Ginning. Unless I’m forgetting someone, which is always possible. I did not particularly want Laberge, but it was late enough that my complaints were muted. There’s really not much difference between 40th and 20th on most consensus draft boards. They’re the talented guys with major questions and you pick your favorite.
Hextall was average when it came to top 50 picks, missed on as many as he hit.

He was best after #100, where he found a number of hidden gems, the problem is it requires a very patient FO b/c those players usually take longer to arrive (which is why they were available later in the draft). 8 years after he started, we're finally going to see the fruits of his labor in 2022-23 and 2023-24.

It's not easy finding hidden gems, Sakic for example, while very good picking in the top 10, is batting close to .000 in the later rounds. TB does a great job.
 

Beef Invictus

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Which is why Torts is by far the best choice, given the constraints placed by this organization.

I think you'd have the same issue with Trotz as you did with AV, while Trotz might have built Nashville a couple decades ago, he's been in win now mode in Wash and on the Isle, and will almost certainly take a job with the same mindset.

Torts really seems to like the process of building a team as much as the eventual goal.

And I think the PTB doesn't really understand that about him, they think of him as a "turnaround artist," but don't get that for him, turning a team around starts with turning around players, not giving the GM a shopping list.

The question is whether Fletcher does understand that, and will work with him, or feels he has to show a "bias for action," and make moves just to placate the PTB.

You're dead. Go back and look at the D+1, D+2 seasons, BEFORE they were in-house.
The guys who flopped, for the most part, flopped before the organization got their mitts on them.
The guys who succeeded, shone in those seasons.
The one exception was Patrick, and that was bad scouting/luck.
The only one who shone before they entered the organization was Frost, but he also lost a year to injury, book isn't finished on him.
They may not have done a great job developing players, but it's not like they ruined top prospects, either.

Relative to draft position, the only "underachiever' might be Provorov, Farabee (#14), Sanheim (#17), TK (#24), Hart (#48) are what you'd expect or better. Lindblom was a steal, but he performed in the SHL.
Laberge was bad luck, Rubtsov bad scouting, Ratcliffe, Ginning, JOB the same. Allison is good player, bad luck.

The Fletcher/Flahr picks so far have had better D+1, D+2 campaigns except for Touamaala.

For years you have insisted that damned near everything Fletcher has done was the best choice.

Yet the team is a lot worse now.
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
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Hextall was average when it came to top 50 picks, missed on as many as he hit.

So the problem wasn't drafting. Where do we disagree? :laugh:

Forget the ratio of hits to misses. If they were average drafting, that's fine. Especially when you take more swings than the average team. I would argue the entire point is that everyone regresses toward the mean in the top 50 over a large enough sample size. Now maybe there's more meat on the bone in a league with as many poorly run teams as the NHL had in 2016, but any way you slice it, average is fine.
 

flyersnorth

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Oct 7, 2019
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All those teams were absolutely brutal for years. The scary thing is, the Oilers missed on some elite picks or they could have been unbeatable.

Drafting I also an issue with the Flyers. And a lot of that comes back to philosophy. For example, I think if they keep their pick at 5 this year, their pick will be Geekie, when there's higher upside talent on the board. These guys passed on Caufield TWICE in the same draft.

Consider if they drafted...

Pastrnak over Sanheim
Rantanen over Provorov
Makar over Patrick

You're talking about 3 elite superstars compared to two good defensemen and a cast off. So, yes, they need to hit on their picks, which is a problem in itself.

But the recipe for success, marketability, and extended contention is to hit rock bottom and rebuild.

It's a strange hellish combination of drafting good but not great players and almost comical bad luck.

Who are the top 5 guys on this team under 25?

Hart
Konecny
Farabee
Tippett
Frost

The other under-25 players are York, Brink, Attard, and Cates.
 
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SeanAveryTheGreatOne

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Many blessings to you guys. Something in my heart tells me this will be the last time Torts coaches an NHL team - whether he retires or tries to move up in hockey management from here.
 

GKJ

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Many blessings to you guys. Something in my heart tells me this will be the last time Torts coaches an NHL team - whether he retires or tries to move up in hockey management from here.
He got hired because he doesn’t want to be into management. That’s a very exclusive club to be in. He doesn’t know the secret handshake for that.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Torts mentions wanting to bring in a power play coach...anyone have candidates they;'d like to see?
He indicated that he wanted a PP coach who can also help coach creative offensive players in general.

That would seemingly indicate a coach who was an offensive player in the NHL.

I guess Recchi is the first name that jumps to mind since he was just let go by NJ. But his PP last season in NJ sucked & I’m not a big fan of his personality.
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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It's a strange hellish combination of drafting good but not great players and almost comical bad luck.

Who are the top 5 guys on this team under 25?

Hart
Konecny
Farabee
Tippett
Frost

The other under-25 players are York, Brink, Attard, and Cates.
That's 9 possible starters out of 20, plus TK, Allison and Laczynski are 25, Provorov, Sanheim and Lindblom 26.

The only old players, Atkinson (33), [JVR (33)], Ellis (32), Couts (30), Hayes (30), Risto (28), Laughton (28)
 
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Diaper Mask Bandits

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Jan 15, 2022
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I'm assuming those of you against a full on rebuild for "pride" reasons are also equally against a team out of the playoff race trading players at the deadline for future assets. For the same reason.

Can't make the team worse, gotta have pride and take the high road and be as competitive as possible at all times. That's what REAL organizations do. Never trade rentals away, because that's LOSER mentality.

This organization is the epitome of a participation trophy.

wow, I hope that's not their mentality

because that's not pride, that's stupidity and ignorance.

at age 10, I understood the concept of trading vets at the deadline if you're not contending
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Flyers have traded rentals the last two years, problem is other than Giroux, they simply didn't have players on expiring contracts to trade at the TDL. If you give long-term deals into a player's mid-30 years, by the time they're on the last season, their value has usually plummeted.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Of course that’s not the mentality of those who are against tanking.

If a player isn’t in your future plans, & you can get something for him, of course you do it.

That has nothing to do with being against intentionally trying to lose as your goal for an entire season.
 
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