Movies: The Marvels

[AtlantaWhaler]

What the heck happened to Jussi? He used to be all over these Marvel threads and then he disappeared a few months ago. Hope he is OK.

He's been busy fanboy-ing over the WWE in the wrestling forum

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I feel like part of the issue with Marvel at this point is the expectations people have from them as well.

It's like everyone forgets that not every movie in the first MCU Saga was a home run like Infinity War, End Game, Civil War, etc... We had lots of decent/average movies in those days as well especially early on during phase 1 and 2.


Admittedly I haven't seen this yet(Going tomorrow) so maybe I end up wrong, but I have a feeling this movie is likely right on par with the likes of Iron Man 2, Ant-Man/Ant-Man and the Wasp, Thor 1, Avengers Age of Ultron, etc.


But I think critics and reviewers simply hold the MCU to a higher standard now compared to back then because of how good the end run of the first saga was with the likes of Ragnarok, Infinity War, End Game, etc.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I feel like part of the issue with Marvel at this point is the expectations people have from them as well.

It's like everyone forgets that not every movie in the first MCU Saga was a home run like Infinity War, End Game, Civil War, etc... We had lots of decent/average movies in those days as well especially early on during phase 1 and 2.


Admittedly I haven't seen this yet(Going tomorrow) so maybe I end up wrong, but I have a feeling this movie is likely right on par with the likes of Iron Man 2, Ant-Man/Ant-Man and the Wasp, Thor 1, Avengers Age of Ultron, etc.


But I think critics and reviewers simply hold the MCU to a higher standard now compared to back then because of how good the end run of the first saga was with the likes of Ragnarok, Infinity War, End Game, etc.

When you think about it this way, there has only been a handful of really good movies in the MCU. Most of them are like 6s and 7s. Worth watching, but you’re not coming out of the theater with stars in your eyes or something. I agree that a big part of the issue lately is people demanding that EndGame type experience from movies that aren’t designed to provide that level of payoff. Granted, some of that frustration has been validated by junk like Love and Thunder, but that has been a small minority.

This is all pretty par for the course with franchises like James Bond or Star Trek. The first stage of the franchise is the foundation and produces the “classics” which become the bar for later content. But you can’t just keep churning out replicas of the classics — time goes on, tastes change, people get bored with last week’s leftovers. Going in new, risky directions is a necessary next step. But it’s damned near impossible to churn out classics after you’ve hit 20, 30 movies in the franchise. Producing merely-good movies in that context is actually a strong achievement, considering most franchises are doing direct-to-video garbage after the second sequel.

 

[beowulf]

So ya Rotten tomatoes has the critics score at 61% and the audience at 85%


Critics Consensus

Funny, refreshingly brief, and elevated by the chemistry of its three leads, The Marvels is easy to enjoy in the moment despite its cluttered story and jumbled tonal shifts.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

When you think about it this way, there has only been a handful of really good movies in the MCU. Most of them are like 6s and 7s. Worth watching, but you’re not coming out of the theater with stars in your eyes or something. I agree that a big part of the issue lately is people demanding that EndGame type experience from movies that aren’t designed to provide that level of payoff. Granted, some of that frustration has been validated by junk like Love and Thunder, but that has been a small minority.

This is all pretty par for the course with franchises like James Bond or Star Trek. The first stage of the franchise is the foundation and produces the “classics” which become the bar for later content. But you can’t just keep churning out replicas of the classics — time goes on, tastes change, people get bored with last week’s leftovers. Going in new, risky directions is a necessary next step. But it’s damned near impossible to churn out classics after you’ve hit 20, 30 movies in the franchise. Producing merely-good movies in that context is actually a strong achievement, considering most franchises are doing direct-to-video garbage after the second sequel.

Yeah pretty much.


Like IMO, you've got:

Infinity War
End Game
Ragnarok
The WInter Soldier
GOTG 1 & 3
Civil War


As legitimately really good top tier movies. You could maybe argue a couple other movies belonging in that really good tier(Like personally I've have Shang Chi in that really good tier, and the first Avengers) but for the most part that's it.


And then on the low end I think you've got:

The Dark World
Black Widow
Love & Thunder


As the legitimately bad movies in the MCU that I would say probably aren't even worth seeing in theatres, where again you could argue a couple more belonging in that group(Lots will have Eternals in it for example).


Everything else falls under a fairly large umbrella of decent enough to be worth watching but not amazing achievements in film or anything. The Marvels likely falls into that same middle range category as a lot of other things and that's perfectly fine IMO. You simply cant have every release be an Infinity War tier movie.


Where I think people might have a legitimate gripe with this current saga in the MCU is the Disney+ content. Where I think they've pretty routinely dropped the ball in that front. And seemingly with different issues every time.

 

[HanSolo]

Just coming out of the theater.

Here’s how I strongly recommend you experience this movie.

- Watch Captain Marvel
- Watch Ms Marvel (seriously, it’s great)
- Maybe watch Secret Invasion
- Go to a theater with a bar, and order a double-shot of bourbon on the rocks and a couple of beers
- Check your seriousness at the door, relax and just enjoy the show

It’s not a great movie, but for Marvel junkies it’s very much worth a watch. It’s better than the past 2 or 3 MCU movies.

I was braced to cringe at girl-power tropes. There are none. There are actual strong female characters and gender isn’t explicitly mentioned at all because the acting and writing carries the show. I’m a little surprised that this hasn’t come up.

Iman Vellani as Ms Marvel is a casting home run on the same level as Downey/Iron Man and Hemsworth/Thor. She brings the same energy to her character that Tom Holland brings to Spider-Man. It’s amazing to see a young unknown actress take on a virtually unknown character and steal every scene. Again, I’m a little surprised this isn’t getting more praise. If you want a reason to watch these shows and movies, she’s a big one.

Like some of the other lower-profile MCU productions, this one has a lot of little nods to the comic book era. The art and writing reflect that someone behind the scenes took the time to know and love their source material. As someone old enough to have experienced these characters in print before they ever made the big screen, I appreciate those touches. It’s not just fan service… the “cosmic” era of Marvel had an aesthetic which is built into the DNA of these stories. That could easily have been missed, but they took the time to get it right.

Bottom line, I think this movie is taking a lot of shit from people who haven’t watched it. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a mediocre installment and hardly unmissable. But it’s not some disaster either. If you’ve been watching all the Marvel content, don’t stop with this movie. It’s plucky and fun and frankly better than some of the other crap they’ve churned out lately.

The MCU movie immediately preceding this one was Guardians of the Galaxy 3 which I thought was great, so I'm wondering if you omitted that or didn't enjoy it.

 

[HanSolo]

Yeah pretty much.


Like IMO, you've got:

Infinity War
End Game
Ragnarok
The WInter Soldier
GOTG 1 & 3
Civil War


As legitimately really good top tier movies. You could maybe argue a couple other movies belonging in that really good tier(Like personally I've have Shang Chi in that really good tier, and the first Avengers) but for the most part that's it.


And then on the low end I think you've got:

The Dark World
Black Widow
Love & Thunder


As the legitimately bad movies in the MCU that I would say probably aren't even worth seeing in theatres, where again you could argue a couple more belonging in that group(Lots will have Eternals in it for example).


Everything else falls under a fairly large umbrella of decent enough to be worth watching but not amazing achievements in film or anything. The Marvels likely falls into that same middle range category as a lot of other things and that's perfectly fine IMO. You simply cant have every release be an Infinity War tier movie.


Where I think people might have a legitimate gripe with this current saga in the MCU is the Disney+ content. Where I think they've pretty routinely dropped the ball in that front. And seemingly with different issues every time.

I think the problem is other than a few appearances of Kang there's no real feeling of build up towards, let's say what's left of the Avengers being a compelling team.

Like what do we have?

Ant Man is likely

Dr. Strange who is still very much doing his own thing

Wanda who's, what going to be a good guy when she inevitably returns?

The clone of vision?

Black Widow 2 through Florence Pugh?

Cap (Sam Wilson)

Kate Bishop replacing Hawkeye?

Thor...maybe?

Rhodey?

Spiderman if Sony is willing to acquiesce?

Is Loki going to be an Avenger?

How many of these Captain Marvels will be on the team?

Like the early stage of the MCU none of these characters interacted until the Avengers outside of Iron Man and Black Widow. But they were building up a core four that no matter how many extra heroes you added in the mix, they were the backbone of the Avengers and they were put together by Nick Fury with Thanos as an underlying threat. Right now you don't really have a core group and even the veterans you do have, it's unclear how central they'll be in this group of heroes. The only thing sort of binding these disparate story lines is the hints of the threat Kang poses. Before, even before the main heroes met, you had a sense of what the Avengers were going to be. Right now that's very much up in the air.

Absent Iron Man and Captain America it just feels like the formula that worked before isn't present here and what's replaced it is vague and uncompelling.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I think the problem is other than a few appearances of Kang there's no real feeling of build up towards, let's say what's left of the Avengers being a compelling team.

Like what do we have?

Ant Man is likely

Dr. Strange who is still very much doing his own thing

Wanda who's, what going to be a good guy when she inevitably returns?

The clone of vision?

Black Widow 2 through Florence Pugh?

Cap (Sam Wilson)

Kate Bishop replacing Hawkeye?

Thor...maybe?

Rhodey?

Spiderman if Sony is willing to acquiesce?

Is Loki going to be an Avenger?

How many of these Captain Marvels will be on the team?

Like the early stage of the MCU none of these characters interacted until the Avengers outside of Iron Man and Black Widow. But they were building up a core four that no matter how many extra heroes you added in the mix, they were the backbone of the Avengers and they were put together by Nick Fury with Thanos as an underlying threat. Right now you don't really have a core group and even the veterans you do have, it's unclear how central they'll be in this group of heroes. The only thing sort of binding these disparate story lines is the hints of the threat Kang poses. Before, even before the main heroes met, you had a sense of what the Avengers were going to be. Right now that's very much up in the air.

Absent Iron Man and Captain America it just feels like the formula that worked before isn't present here and what's replaced it is vague and uncompelling.

Looking at this, I think one of the problems is that Disney feels that they have to have a story to replace a character. Like in the case of Chadwick. It was totally sad, but we also understand. Just cast a new Panther. Or with Capt. Actors get old or move on from the character. Just cast a new Capt America. No need to have to explain why every actor has to move on. It's OK to pull a James Bond or Superman...just recast.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The MCU movie immediately preceding this one was Guardians of the Galaxy 3 which I thought was great, so I'm wondering if you omitted that or didn't enjoy it.

It wasn’t my cup of tea. I unironically enjoyed the Christmas Special more.

I think the problem is other than a few appearances of Kang there's no real feeling of build up towards, let's say what's left of the Avengers being a compelling team.

Like what do we have?

Ant Man is likely

Dr. Strange who is still very much doing his own thing

Wanda who's, what going to be a good guy when she inevitably returns?

The clone of vision?

Black Widow 2 through Florence Pugh?

Cap (Sam Wilson)

Kate Bishop replacing Hawkeye?

Thor...maybe?

Rhodey?

Spiderman if Sony is willing to acquiesce?

Is Loki going to be an Avenger?

How many of these Captain Marvels will be on the team?

Like the early stage of the MCU none of these characters interacted until the Avengers outside of Iron Man and Black Widow. But they were building up a core four that no matter how many extra heroes you added in the mix, they were the backbone of the Avengers and they were put together by Nick Fury with Thanos as an underlying threat. Right now you don't really have a core group and even the veterans you do have, it's unclear how central they'll be in this group of heroes. The only thing sort of binding these disparate story lines is the hints of the threat Kang poses. Before, even before the main heroes met, you had a sense of what the Avengers were going to be. Right now that's very much up in the air.

Absent Iron Man and Captain America it just feels like the formula that worked before isn't present here and what's replaced it is vague and uncompelling.

Interesting point about missing that core group. You’re right, a few years ago it was a core of characters that everyone already knew by name and sight, as part of the general pop culture. You could surround them with secondary characters and make fun spin-offs, but the backbone of the story was always about the handful of “premium” characters. Now the secondary characters are running the show.

A solution may be on the horizon, per the mid-credits teaser on The Marvels. I’m not spoiling anything but let’s say if they’re going the direction it appears they’re going, we won’t be dealing with this issue much longer.

Oh, speaking of which, @John Price hid this behind a spoiler tag but it’s worth a general announcement — the post-credits teaser is a letdown and you’re perfectly OK to leave the theater after the mid-credits teaser. But definitely do stay for the mid-credits.

 

[Ben Grimm]

"'The Marvels' Opens to Just $6.6 Million at Thursday Box Office"​

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

"'The Marvels' Opens to Just $6.6 Million at Thursday Box Office"​

MSN

www.msn.com

wow 6.6M and on veterans day too

 

[Deadpool8812]

I went to the 7:15pm Saturday night show and there was like 20 people there, the lowest I've ever seen for a Marvel movie. The movie itself was...boring. I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never came. The villain was bland, but it was funny to see her as I remember her from Fresh Meat. I would say this is the worst of this phase.

 

[J T Money]

One of my issues is with over saturation. They were capable of building the characters in a 2hr movie before, but now have way too many TV shows with lesser known characters that frankly, nobody cares about (especially not enough to invest 8hrs+ into).

You’d get 3-4 movies at most each year and each one felt like an event. Everyone knew it was leading towards something and it kept the tension up throughout. It led on about how powerful Thanos really was and they delivered on it.

Having Kang be the overarching bad guy, be ‘defeated’ by Ant Man doesn’t exactly live up to a Thanos-esque level threat.

None of the movies feel like an event, there’s no excitement about what’s coming or next anymore and having mediocre movies after Endgame only amplified that.

 

[John Price]

I went to the 7:15pm Saturday night show and there was like 20 people there, the lowest I've ever seen for a Marvel movie. The movie itself was...boring. I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never came. The villain was bland, but it was funny to see her as I remember her from Fresh Meat. I would say this is the worst of this phase.

7 people here. this was it.

 

[dr robbie]

You’d get 3-4 movies at most each year and each one felt like an event. Everyone knew it was leading towards something and it kept the tension up throughout. It led on about how powerful Thanos really was and they delivered on it.

100% my experience. I had a group of 6 or so friends and we would go opening day to each movie. We tried to keep doing this after Endgame, but we lost a couple after Eternals and a couple after MoM. 1 friend completely checked out after the Capt America D+ series and the "do better" speech. The last opening I went to was Love and Thunder and by then it was just my wife and me. I wont go to an opening again after that. Now I either wait for good reviews to watch at the theatre (GotG3) or wait for it to stream (Marvels). Not worth my time/money/investment to potentially waste my evening.

And once you are out / no longer invested, it's extremely hard to get back in. What am I supposed to tell my die-hard MCU friends that stopped watching? Go spend a couple hours watching Ms. Marvel and a couple hours watching Captain Marvel and force torture yourself through Secret Invasion so we can go watch a movie together? I don't hate my friends that much.

If they really wanted to continue the MCU after endgame, they needed to focus on quality and not quantity. Right now, it just feels like they are trying to cash out quick while their created universe burns down.

 

[Osprey]

So ya Rotten tomatoes has the critics score at 61% and the audience at 85%

The audience score is interesting because the vast majority of highly positive reviews are from accounts that haven't rated a movie before. The same thing happened with Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania, The Little Mermaid and Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny.

 

[johnjm22]

Box Office Bomb: ‘The Marvels’ Opens to $47M in New Low for Marvel Studios

The sequel also faltered overseas, where it debuted to $63.3 million for a global start of $110 million compared to nearly $190 million for 'Captain Marvel' in 2019.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Ouch.

The budget for this film is reported at 270M.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I really hope positive word of mouth helps this movie out.


It was honestly really solid. Probably one of my favorite MCU entries since End Game. Not quite on Shang Chi's level up really good.



Iman needs to be the next Star for the MCU IMO.

 

[beowulf]

I really hope positive word of mouth helps this movie out.


It was honestly really solid. Probably one of my favorite MCU entries since End Game. Not quite on Shang Chi's level up really good.



Iman needs to be the next Star for the MCU IMO.

Agree and the last scene of the movie and the mid-credit (no post credit) were worth the price of admission by themselves.

 

[beowulf]

Box Office Bomb: ‘The Marvels’ Opens to $47M in New Low for Marvel Studios

The sequel also faltered overseas, where it debuted to $63.3 million for a global start of $110 million compared to nearly $190 million for 'Captain Marvel' in 2019.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Ouch.

The budget for this film is reported at 270M.

As it mentions right at the end, due to the actors strike basically no promotion was done for this one which never helps.

 

[Osprey]

As it mentions right at the end, due to the actors strike basically no promotion was done for this one which never helps.

Barbie and Oppenheimer came out during the actors' strike and made $1.4B and $950M, respectively. The strike shouldn't be an excuse in this case. A Marvel movie shouldn't need the actors to promote it to be successful. Fans know that it's coming out and they're either excited or they're not. In this case, they're seemingly not. I remember hearing about this movie having low interest and potentially bombing before the strike even happened and even as far back as early Spring, after 'Quantumania' flopped.

 

[J T Money]

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Yeah, no one goes to a movie because an actor is out promoting it around the world. It's not like it's out of sight out of mind when you are spending in excess of $100 million or more promoting the movie.

I thought I heard that Rotten Tomatoes were deleting negative fan reviews of certain movies in the recent past a few months back? Maybe I'm wrong there.

Top critics on Rotten Tomatoes - the ones that matter most - have this movie at a pretty horrible 43% approval.

Saw some reviews from notable Youtubers - Angry Joe had this at a 3/10 while Charlie had this at a 25% on the MoistMeter.

Movie has so far done a little over $20 million for Thursday night/Friday so it looks like it is heading towards around a $50 - $55 million domestic opening. Unless this has legs that likely means it won't event reach $150 million domestically.

 

[johnjm22]

I think actors making the publicity rounds can help raise awareness for a film, but it's hard to gauge how much of a difference it makes. In the case of an MCU film, it seems like everybody already knows about it.

Brie Larson did start promoting it before the weekend and made a late night show appearance.

I think the MCU has the same problem Star Wars has. So much of it has been made recently, it's just not that interesting anymore.

 

[RandV]

I think actors making the publicity rounds can help raise awareness for a film, but it's hard to gauge how much of a difference it makes. In the case of an MCU film, it seems like everybody already knows about it.

Brie Larson did start promoting it before the weekend and made a late night show appearance.

I think the MCU has the same problem Star Wars has. So much of it has been made recently, it's just not that interesting anymore.

It's hard thing to unpack put you have to wonder just how much Disney cannibalized the box office to feed the streaming service, and on a balance scale of good/bad how much it was worth it. Like the Disney MCU TV shows make sense if you look at it from the perspective of a selling a streaming service and needing regular content, but it certainly seems to be a step too far overloading your average movie goer to keep up with everything. But who knows perhaps a decline was coming anyways, especially with Covid shifting movie going habits, and this is the best they can make of a bad situation.