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[strattonius]

It must be frustrating repeatedly having to explain the specifics of the on ice situation he is coming from actually being better for him than the one he’s coming to, only to essentially be brushed aside with “but coyotes!”

Did I ever use the 'but Coyotes' argument? No, I don't believe I did. I've said OEL's usage went down because of Jakob Chychrun. And I've also hinted that the criticisms of OEL's game dropping off last year have been greatly exaggerated.

 

[Melvin]

Did I ever use the 'but Coyotes' argument? No, I don't believe I did. I've said OEL's usage went down because of Jakob Chychrun. And I've also hinted that the criticisms of OEL's game dropping off last year have been greatly exaggerated.

That's only because his game dropped off four years ago.

 

[strattonius]

The point is that the argument that "OEL's poor results are due to him being asked to do too much in Arizona" has not been true for at least 2 years, ever since Chychrun clearly passed him. Last year his ice time was noticeably cut and he was not being asked to be a star #1 d-man anymore, and he still stunk. So the argument that having too big of a role was the cause of his problems is completely busted, and like MS said (and you seem to agree,) he is, if anything, going to be asked to play a much bigger role again in Vancouver.

I've never said he sucked because he was asked to do too much. I don't think I even remotely suggested that? I dont believe he did suck last year (certainly not to the extent this board thinks).

 

[strattonius]

That's only because his game dropped off four years ago.

For sure it did. Prior to that he was a Norris contender not many defenders stay up there.

 

[Melvin]

It's a real triumph of the Trumpian Faux News-style repetition that OEL's incoming narrative is being blindly accepted and propagated so much. All the numbers I've seen tell me that OEL is a declining player coming to an on-ice situation that's easily as bad (if not worse) as the one he left. I said at the time this is pretty much if Ehrhoff came back after scoring his massive payday from Buffalo after four years of going downhill with six years still left on his contract, and I stand by that. Some of the hypothetical pairings I've been seeing are complete lunacy. OEL - Poolman as your #1 pairing? Or OEL - Hamonic? Sorry, what decade is this? Benning's built a defense that contains a whole bunch of people who desperately need a stable partner...and nobody stable to fill that roll.

It's not as if losing Edler and Schmidt is some huge loss...it's that you're replacing them with empty air. That of course doesn't even touch the elephant in the room of what it says that both of these players wanted out.

I'm looking for Benning to be trading more high picks for dmen in about the first or second week of November when the backend is being crushed and it's obvious to even the most determined shills the team just doesn't have the horses to compete.

What I find frustrating is that I expected to be having this discussion *last year* when people were saying absolutely insane things like trading Demko for him. I said he was a bad player and that I wouldn't trade Eriksson for him*, and people literally laughed at me. Then he had a miserable season and I was like "see guys, we dodged a bullet. See?" But no, nobody cares about that, including Benning, and the same pattern of making every decision based on scouting reports from 5 years ago just continues unimpeded despite its obvious failures for 8 years and running.

It's just so unbelievably f***ing frustrating, that even when Benning is saved from his own stupidity and Nate Schmidt just falls into his lap, within a year he has literally pressed the "undo" button and continued forward on his bad plan that was thwarted last year. It's hard to overstate just how f***ing annoying it is to watch this man operate at this point.

* it's funny that this is what ended up happening (sorta.)

 

[Melvin]

Like we don't post Benning quotes as much anymore because he's such an insufferable moron, but these quotes make me want to bash my head against a wall

“He’ll be a top-pairing guy, can play a lot of minutes, PP, PK, can be a match-up guy playing against the other team’s top lines,” said Benning.
“I don’t exactly know why his plus/minus wasn’t good the last couple years,” said Benning, “but I expect it to be better with us going forward.”
“He’s still 30 years old, so I think he’s gonna have another five, six good years left in him,” said Benning.

Everything about this is just mind-numbingly stupid. Every syllable is dripping with the kind of vapid naivety that you would expect of an 8 year old fan who still doesn't quite understand how off-sides work. This is a man with 40 years experience entering his 8th season as a general manager. It's so f***ing pathetic, so f***ing embarrassing.

 

[I in the Eye]

It'll only be a few more months to begin seeing what was purchased vs what was dreamed. OEL is being marketed to drain rivers, where in actuality, he fills buckets. The offseason is always the most optimistic time during the Benning era. It's also the time where the regime's delusions are the farthest away from reality. Once time catches up to their dreams, it's less optimistic, but it's also less insane... until they regroup to explain why their delusions didn't manifest into the real world.

The evidence is that this is one of the worst contacts in the NHL, with little chance of OEL to come close to earning it (i.e. be the player Benning describes). It would be so much easier to just believe the player we are getting is the player described. OEL is a Canuck, and Benning is GM. That's the reality. This is good practice for when the kids introduce you to their goofy lovers. Just provide support as best you can, and be there for when they fall... What else can you do?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Like we don't post Benning quotes as much anymore because he's such an insufferable moron, but these quotes make me want to bash my head against a wall



Everything about this is just mind-numbingly stupid. Every syllable is dripping with the kind of vapid naivety that you would expect of an 8 year old fan who still doesn't quite understand how off-sides work. This is a man with 40 years experience entering his 8th season as a general manager. It's so f***ing pathetic, so f***ing embarrassing.

Absolutely. You can see where everyone's getting their marching orders from. Reminds me of a Kuzma article when the Gudbranson trade happened. Benning mentioned somewhere about Gudbranson having "untapped offensive potential", and that one snippet dutifully made its rounds in the papers and discussion forums.

It's terrifyingly stupid that OEL is someone Benning was ardently pursuing for more than a year. Heading into year eight he's learned nothing. Absolutely nothing.

It'll only be a few more months to begin seeing what was purchased vs what was dreamed. OEL is being marketed to drain rivers, where in actuality, he fills buckets. The offseason is always the most optimistic time during the Benning era. It's also the time where the regime's delusions are the farthest away from reality. Once time catches up to their dreams, it's less optimistic, but it's also less insane... until they regroup to explain why their delusions didn't manifest into the real world.

The evidence is that this is one of the worst contacts in the NHL, with little chance of OEL to come close to earning it (i.e. be the player Benning describes). It would be so much easier to just believe the player we are getting is the player described. OEL is a Canuck, and Benning is GM. That's the reality. This is good practice for when the kids introduce you to goofy lovers. Just provide support as best you can, and be there for when they fall... What else can you do?

Oh, the summers are always the glory days for Benning's cheerleaders. You always see the same accounts and sock puppets scampering all over the place talking about how great Benning is, how great the moves he's made are, how great the team will be in the upcoming season, how all us nay-sayers just hate him personally...blah blah f***ing blah.

When the puck drops they all vanish and only emerge once in a while to remind us the Canucks were in playoff position for a couple of hours on Sunday three weeks ago and how nobody could have possibly predicted the team's ongoing demise, etc etc etc. We all know the drill by now.

 

[F A N]

Like we don't post Benning quotes as much anymore because he's such an insufferable moron, but these quotes make me want to bash my head against a wall



Everything about this is just mind-numbingly stupid. Every syllable is dripping with the kind of vapid naivety that you would expect of an 8 year old fan who still doesn't quite understand how off-sides work. This is a man with 40 years experience entering his 8th season as a general manager. It's so f***ing pathetic, so f***ing embarrassing.

Here's some quotes circa Feb. 1, 2021:

"He’s a power play guy, he’s a penalty kill guy, he’s a big chunk of our team."
"It’s a big loss, we knew it . . . he’s our No.1 defenseman"

It came from Green's best friend.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

Here's some quotes circa Feb. 1, 2021:


It came from Green's best friend.

Who's Green's best friend? Who is this statement relating to?

 

[F A N]

Who's Green's best friend? Who is this statement relating to?

Those were quotes from Tocchet referring to OEL.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

Those were quotes from Tocchet referring to OEL.

I mean, I wouldn't really put "this other coach thinks that OEL is good too" as some great point. There are a lot of dumb guys in the NHL from players to ownership, so I'm not surprised there are others who look at OEL and see the 2016 Allstar version of him. Even in that single quote, he says that OEL was their No 1 dman, which is objectively false because Chychrun was way better than him last season. After noting a transparently wrong statement like that, one should probably take the rest of what that person is saying with a grain of salt

 

[RandV]

Oh, the summers are always the glory days for Benning's cheerleaders. You always see the same accounts and sock puppets scampering all over the place talking about how great Benning is, how great the moves he's made are, how great the team will be in the upcoming season, how all us nay-sayers just hate him personally...blah blah f***ing blah.

When the puck drops they all vanish and only emerge once in a while to remind us the Canucks were in playoff position for a couple of hours on Sunday three weeks ago and how nobody could have possibly predicted the team's ongoing demise, etc etc etc. We all know the drill by now.

Yes you always get these accounts created in like 2008 or something with practically no posting history that suddenly become very active at certain points in the year. Not that someone can't mostly lurk or leave and come back years later but just the regularity of it is highly suspicious.

 

[lousy]

Yes you always get these accounts created in like 2008 or something with practically no posting history that suddenly become very active at certain points in the year. Not that someone can't mostly lurk or leave and come back years later but just the regularity of it is highly suspicious.

Or just the norm for lurkers who follow the conversation and don't join in on the daily pissing matches

 

[F A N]

I mean, I wouldn't really put "this other coach thinks that OEL is good too" as some great point. There are a lot of dumb guys in the NHL from players to ownership, so I'm not surprised there are others who look at OEL and see the 2016 Allstar version of him. Even in that single quote, he says that OEL was their No 1 dman, which is objectively false because Chychrun was way better than him last season. After noting a transparently wrong statement like that, one should probably take the rest of what that person is saying with a grain of salt

The point is to illustrate that Benning's description of OEL is very similar to OEL's coach's description of him. Maybe it's all just pumping tires but I think there's no denying that the perception of OEL around the league with change of scenery is quite positive.

 

[Peter10]

Yes you always get these accounts created in like 2008 or something with practically no posting history that suddenly become very active at certain points in the year. Not that someone can't mostly lurk or leave and come back years later but just the regularity of it is highly suspicious.

I was thinking the very same today, ot also usually happens just right after another short term very active poster suddenly goes solent

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

The point is to illustrate that Benning's description of OEL is very similar to OEL's coach's description of him. Maybe it's all just pumping tires but I think there's no denying that the perception of OEL around the league with change of scenery is quite positive.

I mean yeah, he was Arizona's captain at the time and played a lot of minutes for them. I'm not surprised to see that the coach was complimentary of him, but I'm not sure what that has to do with Benning's comments. If Benning was merely complimentary in his comments, ie "we think OEL is a good player who will be an important part of our team moving forward", I don't think many reasonable people would have much to complain about in that statement. The issue would likely be that he's overpaid and a bad target, but not much to complain about in that sentence. The issue lies in "we see him as our number 1 guy, we think he's gonna come in and turn this defense around, he'll be able to take pressure off of Hughes, etc etc." because these statements show either a complete lack of understanding of how OEL has recently performed in the last 4-5 seasons, or a delusion that those facts do not matter because he'll be magically revitalized in the Canucks' system. Either way, Benning's comments are boneheaded and set OEL up to fail, which is unfair to OEL

 

[F A N]

I mean yeah, he was Arizona's captain at the time and played a lot of minutes for them. I'm not surprised to see that the coach was complimentary of him, but I'm not sure what that has to do with Benning's comments. If Benning was merely complimentary in his comments, ie "we think OEL is a good player who will be an important part of our team moving forward", I don't think many reasonable people would have much to complain about in that statement. The issue would likely be that he's overpaid and a bad target, but not much to complain about in that sentence. The issue lies in "we see him as our number 1 guy, we think he's gonna come in and turn this defense around, he'll be able to take pressure off of Hughes, etc etc." because these statements show either a complete lack of understanding of how OEL has recently performed in the last 4-5 seasons, or a delusion that those facts do not matter because he'll be magically revitalized in the Canucks' system. Either way, Benning's comments are boneheaded and set OEL up to fail, which is unfair to OEL

My point is that Benning's comments very much parroted Tochett's.

This whole thing about a GM or coach's comment setting up a player to fail is so stupid. It's not like OEL is a prospect who has been declared the team's saviour. He's been a star in this league who has been considered a #1 Dman for years. If he is such a wallflower where Benning saying he's a #1 Dman is going to contribute to OEL failing here in anyway that's on OEL.

 

[MS]

Like we don't post Benning quotes as much anymore because he's such an insufferable moron, but these quotes make me want to bash my head against a wall



Everything about this is just mind-numbingly stupid. Every syllable is dripping with the kind of vapid naivety that you would expect of an 8 year old fan who still doesn't quite understand how off-sides work. This is a man with 40 years experience entering his 8th season as a general manager. It's so f***ing pathetic, so f***ing embarrassing.

Just so we're clear here, I'm going to count the number of mistakes, logical failures or outright dumb things Jim Benning managed to say in these 3 sentences :

1) He's attributing that a guy who hasn't performed at a top pairing level in a long time is a top pairing defender and a 'matchup guy' despite being destroyed in far easier minutes than that last year.

2) He's putting unfair pressure and expectations on the player by claiming that he's a #1 guy rather than just by saying he can be a good part of the group here. Juolevi=Lidstrom all over again.

3) He's invested nearly $50 million in cap space in a guy, when he 'doesn't know why' that player has struggled. Like, doesn't even attempt to have an opinion on it.

4) He's apparently using raw +/- as a key evaluation tool.

5) Despite not knowing why his +/- was bad in Arizona, he just makes a magical assumption it will get better in Vancouver.

6) Even after virtually every UFA he's signed into his 30s has blown up in his face - in particular Eriksson - he still believes that 30 is young and that OEL has 5-6 quality seasons left. Has learned absolutely nothing.

3 sentences. Incredible. Vapid is the exact word for it. Saying that Benning shows bad reasoning is actually a compliment to him because it implies that any reasoning at all is happening. This is a profoundly stupid man who doesn't even attempt to find logic and reasoning to make a move. It's the general out-of-date populist takes of the casual fan coupled with a healthy helping of blind hope.

 

[MS]

My point is that Benning's comments very much parroted Tochett's.

This whole thing about a GM or coach's comment setting up a player to fail is so stupid. It's not like OEL is a prospect who has been declared the team's saviour. He's been a star in this league who has been considered a #1 Dman for years. If he is such a wallflower where Benning saying he's a #1 Dman is going to contribute to OEL failing here in anyway that's on OEL.

We've had this discussion before on Juolevi=Lidstrom.

It's just a stupid thing to say from a stupid person.

Yes, the first thing is that it puts unnecessary pressure on the player in question.

But it's also stupid because it leaves the door wide open for him to look very stupid. Smart people don't say things like this for that reason.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

My point is that Benning's comments very much parroted Tochett's.

This whole thing about a GM or coach's comment setting up a player to fail is so stupid. It's not like OEL is a prospect who has been declared the team's saviour. He's been a star in this league who has been considered a #1 Dman for years. If he is such a wallflower where Benning saying he's a #1 Dman is going to contribute to OEL failing here in anyway that's on OEL.

But what is that point? Just confirming that two people have said similar things?

I mean, I can't see how one can so easily dismiss public comments by the GM that set expectations way too high for a player. You parroting those statements (he's been a #1 dman for years) is evidence enough that his statements affect the way that fans set expectations for player performance. I am not saying that his absurd expectations are going to hurt OEL's confidence, but they absolutely will set expectations too high for a portion of the fanbase that lives and breathes Benning's words. If I was a layperson who likes the Canucks but didn't follow the league that closely, Benning's comments might lead me to believe that we have top ~20 dman in the league coming in, because otherwise why would the GM say these things? And then if/when OEL is not a #1 dman (likely, judging by the past 4 seasons), then the uninformed fan is likely going to blame OEL, because this player was described as a star coming into Vancouver.

This is another example of Benning being a woeful communicator, because it would be very easy to just plain not set expectations so high. However, Benning has often found himself in a position where he has bungled his way into needing a homerun STAT, and so over-hypes his own moves in an attempt to convince people he has solved the problem before any actual results can be seen. He's a guy who cuts corners at every turn, and so it makes sense that he would try to paint his moves as successes immediately, rather than allowing his work to speak for itself (the reason he cannot do this is explained by the Canucks' lack of success over his tenure)

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

3) He's invested nearly $50 million in cap space in a guy, when he 'doesn't know why' that player has struggled. Like, doesn't even attempt to have an opinion on it.

This is one of the funniest aspects of the trade. I feel like common practice in business when making a decision and developing a good process is to have someone play devil's advocate, ie Where are the risks here, and why are we confident that we can avoid/overcome them? When Benning is asked even a single question about like "hey, have you considered the downside or looked at his recent results?" the answer is just "hmm yeah wow, isn't that a puzzler". Seems obvious that this is not a well-considered risk, and is just a reactionary swing to save his job

 

[Melvin]

Just so we're clear here, I'm going to count the number of mistakes, logical failures or outright dumb things Jim Benning managed to say in these 3 sentences :

1) He's attributing that a guy who hasn't performed at a top pairing level in a long time is a top pairing defender and a 'matchup guy' despite being destroyed in far easier minutes than that last year.

2) He's putting unfair pressure and expectations on the player by claiming that he's a #1 guy rather than just by saying he can be a good part of the group here. Juolevi=Lidstrom all over again.

3) He's invested nearly $50 million in cap space in a guy, when he 'doesn't know why' that player has struggled. Like, doesn't even attempt to have an opinion on it.

4) He's apparently using raw +/- as a key evaluation tool.

5) Despite not knowing why his +/- was bad in Arizona, he just makes a magical assumption it will get better in Vancouver.

6) Even after virtually every UFA he's signed into his 30s has blown up in his face - in particular Eriksson - he still believes that 30 is young and that OEL has 5-6 quality seasons left. Has learned absolutely nothing.

3 sentences. Incredible. Vapid is the exact word for it. Saying that Benning shows bad reasoning is actually a compliment to him because it implies that any reasoning at all is happening. This is a profoundly stupid man who doesn't even attempt to find logic and reasoning to make a move. It's the general out-of-date populist takes of the casual fan coupled with a healthy helping of blind hope.

I keep coming back to these quotes because I feel like it's impossible to even capture how stupid they are.

Like if you're driving in your car and the guy on the radio says "I don't know why his +/- has been bad the past few years, but I expect it to be better with us," you would cringe at how embarassingly low this radio DJ's knowledge of hockey is and you would change the station. Like, you don't know? YOU DONT KNOW? Leaving aside that it's not a good way to evaluate players, how do you not know? How do you not know? You just traded for this player. You don't know? Yeah, I don't know why he's gotten scored on so much the past few years, I didn't look into that or anything, I'm sure it won't be a problem for us. You expect it to better for us? Why? How can you say that when you don't know what the problem was in the first place. "I don't know what the problem was, but I'm sure it won't be a problem anymore" is something you say when you haven't the faintest idea how to do your job. YOU DIDNT LOOK INTO IT? YOU DONT KNOW? HOW IS "I DONT KNOW" AN ACCEPTABLE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. THIS MAN, sorry. This man has been the GM for 7 seasons. THE GM. THE GENERAL MANAGER OF THE HOCKEY TEAM. THE GUY IN CHARGE. HE DOESNT KNOW. HE DOESNT EVEN PRETEND TO KNOW. If you're Aquilini, how do you put up with this? This man just spent $50,000,000 on a player, and says to the public that he "doesn't know" why that player has had poor numbers the past few years. He hasn't bothered to look into it, it wasn't an important question to answer before committing $50,000,000. FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. FIFTY MILLION. HE DOESNT KNOW.

And that's just like, one, thing. Like you said, it's one of like six things in three sentences that shows he doesn't have the foggiest idea what he's doing, which we already knew of course but it still boggles my mind. If I said to my boss tomorrow "I don't know why that pipeline wasn't working, but I expect it will be working tomorrow," he would be like, the f***? It's your job. It's your job to know these things. It's your

 

[vanuck]

Benning. Rationality.

They just don't mix:

 

[MS]

I keep coming back to these quotes because I feel like it's impossible to even capture how stupid they are.

Like if you're driving in your car and the guy on the radio says "I don't know why his +/- has been bad the past few years, but I expect it to be better with us," you would cringe at how embarassingly low this radio DJ's knowledge of hockey is and you would change the station. Like, you don't know? YOU DONT KNOW? Leaving aside that it's not a good way to evaluate players, how do you not know? How do you not know? You just traded for this player. You don't know? Yeah, I don't know why he's gotten scored on so much the past few years, I didn't look into that or anything, I'm sure it won't be a problem for us. You expect it to better for us? Why? How can you say that when you don't know what the problem was in the first place. "I don't know what the problem was, but I'm sure it won't be a problem anymore" is something you say when you haven't the faintest idea how to do your job. YOU DIDNT LOOK INTO IT? YOU DONT KNOW? HOW IS "I DONT KNOW" AN ACCEPTABLE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. THIS MAN, sorry. This man has been the GM for 7 seasons. THE GM. THE GENERAL MANAGER OF THE HOCKEY TEAM. THE GUY IN CHARGE. HE DOESNT KNOW. HE DOESNT EVEN PRETEND TO KNOW. If you're Aquilini, how do you put up with this? This man just spent $50,000,000 on a player, and says to the public that he "doesn't know" why that player has had poor numbers the past few years. He hasn't bothered to look into it, it wasn't an important question to answer before committing $50,000,000. FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. FIFTY MILLION. HE DOESNT KNOW.

And that's just like, one, thing. Like you said, it's one of like six things in three sentences that shows he doesn't have the foggiest idea what he's doing, which we already knew of course but it still boggles my mind. If I said to my boss tomorrow "I don't know why that pipeline wasn't working, but I expect it will be working tomorrow," he would be like, the f***? It's your job. It's your job to know these things. It's your

I mean, it's my Mittens the Cat analogy and this is how it's been for 8 years.

We have this absolutely insane situation with this insanely unqualified moron running the team constantly saying and doing insanely stupid things, and 90% of the fanbase just acting like this insanity is totally normal somehow.

If you wrote this stuff into a half-hour sitcom about some podunk idiot who lucked himself into running a pro sports team, it would be considered too stupid to be believable.

This r***** is apparently paid $2 million/year to say he doesn't know why a $50 million investment has performed the way it has over a multi-year period.