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[logan5]

I tried.

. I tried too

 

[logan5]

No shit, have you been living in a hole? Holland started it, f***ed it up and now Yzerman is in the process of tanking and collecting assets.

Yeah yeah. The same Ken Holland f***ed it up. The same gm that had the wings in the playoffs how many years in a row?
Like I said, it’s not so much the quality of the GM as it is the constraints of the cap era.

 

[logan5]

Yeah yeah. The same Ken Holland f***ed it up. The same gm that had the wings in the playoffs how many years in a row?
Like I said, it’s not so much the quality of the GM as it is the constraints of the cap era.

This is why I said drafting is the most important element in a rebuild in the cap era. The Canucks have luckily strung together some great draft picks in a relatively short window. Enough that they have a good enough momentum to propel them to the next level. Some teams end up spinning their wheels.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Detroit is purposely missing 5 playoffs in a row, going on 6? They are doing this on purpose?

Yeah.

They even sabotaged their own rebuild by switching GMs after only missing the playoffs 3 times in a row!

Wtf?

 

[Cornwallace]

Del Zotto,,Vanek and Schaller were just placeholders...bottom of the barrel UFA signings to fill out the roster, and have a reason for people to buy a ticket, and watch a competitive team..None of these players moved the needle...There was nothing to suggest they were 'going for it'.

Gagner was just an all round bad signing,..Roussel was signed (along with Beagle) as a mentor for the young core players.

Its your opinion that these were players were going to get the Canucks into the playoffs, but in reality..the team was in a holding position until the cavalry (Boeser,Hughes,Petterson) arrived.


Eriksson was signed in 2016, the next impact UFA player was signed 3 years later (Myers) , when Benning indeed 'went all in'.

The reason the team couldn't sign a "impact UFA" is because they were capped out and chose to use what cap space they did to plug depth roles in the roster. When you're over-paying a motely crew of bottom six guys that's what happens. Gagner, Del Zotto, and Vanek were all signed as part of the last push with the Sedins, not just as place holders. Gagner and Del Zotto were both coming off pretty solid previous season and signed for 3+ mil each, Vanek was a 1 year show me deal with high upside, minimal downside.

They tried to make the playoffs the entire time with the Sedins up until the end of 17/18, where they finished with a 73 point season and missed the playoffs by 22 points. The following season saw them increase their point total to 81 and only miss by playoffs by 9 points. While spending right to the cap again. Then they trade a 1st and go crazy in UFA the season after...

I don't any season where they weren't trying to make the playoffs.

 

[arttk]

Yeah yeah. The same Ken Holland f***ed it up. The same gm that had the wings in the playoffs how many years in a row?
Like I said, it’s not so much the quality of theFM as it is the constraints of the cap era.

Holland is showing he cannot adapt. There are plenty of GMs that have adapted by like lamoriello and McPhee. Hell Boston managed to retool on the fly after Chia and Benning left and they managed to do it despite messing up the 2015 draft.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

However many GM’s, 1,2, or 3, Detroit is headed down the 7 to 9 year path that most teams go through in the cap era. Name me the teams that have rebuilt in 5 or 6 years in the cap era. Not many. There are so many examples of teams taking this long to rebuild that it becomes obvious that no matter which gm you hire, or fire, the reality is 7 to 9 years to become a consistent playoff team.

So many examples, but none provided.

 

[logan5]

So many examples, but none provided.

Name a team off the top of your head. Oddsare they went through a long stretch of being a consistent none play off team for an at least 7 to 9 year stretch. Name a team.
I posted a list. You didn’t see it, or just ignored it.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Name a team off the top of your head. Oddsare they went through a long stretch of being a none play off team for an at least 7 to 9 year stretch. Name a team.
I posted a list. You didn’t see it, or just ignored it.

If it’s your mythical playoffs/not playoffs list, or whatever it was, that isn’t proof of anything, as was discussed at the time.

If you’ve actually done some actual work to support your point, feel free to repost it.

Somehow I have the feeling that it’s going to be as extensive as your argument as to which incarnation of the Canucks is better in the thread you posted today.

 

[logan5]

If it’s your mythical playoffs/not playoffs list, or whatever it was, that isn’t proof of anything, as was discussed at the time.

If you’ve actually done some actual work to support your point, feel free to repost it.

Somehow I have the feeling that it’s going to be as extensive as your argument as to which incarnation of the Canucks is better in the thread you posted today.

Yeah, one of those lines was the Avalanche missing the play offs 7 out of 9 years before they became a consistent play off team. Is that mythical or just straight up fact? Which team is next? Can’t accept facts.

 

[logan5]

If it’s your mythical playoffs/not playoffs list, or whatever it was, that isn’t proof of anything, as was discussed at the time.

If you’ve actually done some actual work to support your point, feel free to repost it.

Somehow I have the feeling that it’s going to be as extensive as your argument as to which incarnation of the Canucks is better in the thread you posted today.

How long was the avalanche rebuild? Shouldn’t take you too long to answer that question

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The reason the team couldn't sign a "impact UFA" is because they were capped out and chose to use what cap space they did to plug depth roles in the roster. When you're over-paying a motely crew of bottom six guys that's what happens. Gagner, Del Zotto, and Vanek were all signed as part of the last push with the Sedins, not just as place holders. Gagner and Del Zotto were both coming off pretty solid previous season and signed for 3+ mil each, Vanek was a 1 year show me deal with high upside, minimal downside.

They tried to make the playoffs the entire time with the Sedins up until the end of 17/18, where they finished with a 73 point season and missed the playoffs by 22 points. The following season saw them increase their point total to 81 and only miss by playoffs by 9 points. While spending right to the cap again. Then they trade a 1st and go crazy in UFA the season after...

I don't any season where they weren't trying to make the playoffs.

Benning has spoken how difficult it was to attract FA's to a bottom feeder in his early years here..All they had to offer is cash and term..and no, MDZ,Vanek and Gagner were not signed for a playoff push...Earlier in the year (April 2017) Linden finally said that they were in a 'rebuild', which meant that the playoff push with the fast deteriorating Sedins was realistically over and done with.

The next year they signed Beagle and Roussel.(to mentor the new young core).and again....signing a 32 year old 4C, and a vet agitating bottom 6 player does not constitute a 'playoff push'


"Coach Travis Green, general manager Jim Benning and former president Trevor Linden so coveted Beagle’s qualities, as a player and as a template for professionalism, the Canucks went double the term they had initially hoped would lure him.
On the surface, the only thing crazier than that contract – besides the identical deal for free agent..Antoine Roussel
was Beagle’s decision to accept it.
Sure, it’s a lot of money. Other teams were willing to give him a lot of money, too, and most of them could offer Beagle a far better chance to win than the Canucks, who are universally picked to finish very near the bottom of the NHL for a fourth straight season."
Canucks' vision helped lure Jay Beagle to Vancouver - Sportsnet.ca


The year following that ..with Hughes,Boeser,Pettersson..they were finally ready to make a playoff push.

 

[Cornwallace]

Benning has spoken how difficult it was to attract FA's to a bottom feeder..All they had to offer is cash and term..and no, MDZ,Vanek and Gagner were not signed for a playoff push...Earlier in the year (April 2017) Linden finally said that they were in a 'rebuild', which meant that the playoff push with the fast deteriorating Sedins was over and done with.

The next year they signed Beagle and Roussel.(to mentor the new young core).and again....signing a 32 year old 4C, and a vet agitating bottom 6 player does not constitute a 'playoff push'

He said that because it was a convenient excuse that a large part of the fanbase wanted to hear. Those words kind of ring hollow when you consider the teams moves the offseason before he said that. Why would a rebuilding team sign loui to a 6x6 the offseason before if they were rebuilding? Benning also continued to burn picks on trades during this time period too instead of gathering more like a team going through a rebuild would.

I think at best you could argue it as an involuntary re-tool year because of how bad the team was, but the actions they took certainly weren't that of a rebuilding team.

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

This is why I said drafting is the most important element in a rebuild in the cap era. The Canucks have luckily strung together some great draft picks in a relatively short window. Enough that they have a good enough momentum to propel them to the next level. Some teams end up spinning their wheels.

Imagine if we had the basic amount of picks the NHL provides each team during that time. NHL would have to look out!

 

[Peen]

I can understand why signing shit players to untradable contracts doesn’t constitute pushing for the playoffs, but it doesn’t resemble anything close to a rebuild either.

 

[Cornwallace]

That bit about Beagle is just imac trying to put a positive spin on why Beagle would choose Vancouver too lol

Beagle has won everything there is to win in hockey and was just looking to cash in on the biggest/retirement contact he could get

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Yeah, one of those lines was the Avalanche missing the play offs 7 out of 9 years before they became a consistent play off team. Is that mythical or just straight up fact? Which team is next? Can’t accept facts.

How Joe Sakic built the Avalanche into a perennial Stanley Cup contender

That might have been rock bottom, but it was a necessary hiccup for both the organization and Sakic. Since that point, the GM has seemingly made all of the right moves. Only four regulars from that roster -- Nathan MacKinnon, Mikko Rantanen, Gabriel Landeskog and Erik Johnson -- remain with Colorado today. Over those four years, the Avalanche have systematically overhauled their depth chart, keeping the team's core in place and adding to it through trades, free agency and the draft.

I dunno. I would argue clearing out virtually your entire roster would constitute a rebuild, as you're building a new team with different parts, but what do I know?

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

However many GM’s, 1,2, or 3, Detroit is headed down the 7 to 9 year path that most teams go through in the cap era. Name me the teams that have rebuilt in 5 or 6 years in the cap era. Not many. There are so many examples of teams taking this long to rebuild that it becomes obvious that no matter which gm you hire, or fire, the reality is 7 to 9 years to become a consistent playoff team.

I think this is exactly the point you are missing. The Canucks are basically the only data point for a 7 year rebuild keeping the same manager. I’d accept the fact that changing management might lead to cleaning up messes, but it’s harder to accept giving the same guy leeway to make the same messes over and over without any critical review of his overall body of work in charge of the team. This seems like choosing failure and mediocrity in hopes that they turn around their performance against logic and track record, which bizarrely aligns with Benning’s normal pro scouting model

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Typical answer

Since you refused to answer questions posed to you, and I've stated I don't feel like going around the mulberry bush with you until you provide something meaningful, you're not going to get me to make an extensive effort post. Particularly since I did that with Calgary as an example and you completely and utterly ignored it.

Sakic gutted the roster, a process he started in 2017. Since there was significant turnover, it was a rebuild.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

He said that because it was a convenient excuse that a large part of the fanbase wanted to hear. Those words kind of ring hollow when you consider the teams moves the offseason before he said that. Why would a rebuilding team sign loui to a 6x6 the offseason before if they were rebuilding? Benning also continued to burn picks on trades during this time period too instead of gathering more like a team going through a rebuild would.

I think at best you could argue it as an involuntary re-tool year because of how bad the team was, but the actions they took certainly weren't that of a rebuilding team.

They were still on the rebuild on the fly when they signed Louie…and the team has never done a classic rebuild (but essentially rebuilt a core group)

but saying they were making a playoff push in 2017-19 and 2018-19 is unsupported.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

They were still on the rebuild on the fly when they signed Louie…and the team has never done a classic rebuild (but essentially rebuilt a core group)

but saying they were making a playoff push in 2017-19 and 2018-19 is unsupported.

Other than by every public statement made by the management group at the beginning of the season during that time where they said playoffs were the goal, I agree

 

[logan5]

Since you refused to answer questions posed to you, and I've stated I don't feel like going around the mulberry bush with you until you provide something meaningful, you're not going to get me to make an extensive effort post. Particularly since I did that with Calgary as an example and you completely and utterly ignored it.

Sakic gutted the roster, a process he started in 2017. Since there was significant turnover, it was a rebuild.

Yeah but how long was the total rebuild? You can tell the same story with so many teams. How long was the avalanche rebuild, including all GM’s.I said the rebuild in Colorado took 9 years, what’s your rebuttal?

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

"Consistent playoff team" for my purposes = 3+ seasons of making the playoffs in a row.

Feel free to knock off a single year for any teams going past the 04/05 lockout.

Edmonton has gone 20+ years without becoming a 'consistent playoff team.' But it only takes 7-9 years.

The last time the Buffalo Sabres were a 'consistent playoff team' was in 2001. Which was 20 years ago. But it only takes 7-9 years.

Tampa Bay went 6 years without being a 'consistent playoff team.' But it should take 7-9 years.

The last time the Ottawa Senators were a 'consistent playoff team' was in 2008. That was 13 years ago. But it only takes 7-9 years.

It took the Columbus Blue Jackets 15 years to become a 'consistent playoff team.' But it only takes 7-9 years.

The last time the New Jersey Devils were a 'consistent playoff team' was 2010. Which was 11 years ago. But it only takes 7-9 years.

The Florida Panthers have never been a 'consistent playoff team.' They were founded in 1994. That was 27 years ago. But it only takes 7-9 years.

Prior to their present slump, the Chicago Blackhawks were last a 'consistent playoff team' in 1997. They broke that in 2009, a period of 12 years. But it only takes 7-9 years.

The last time the Phoenix Coyotes were a 'consistent playoff team' was in 2012. Since it takes 7-9 years to make the playoffs, they clearly made the playoffs this year, right?

The last time the Dallas Stars were a 'consistent playoff team' was in 2008. That was 13 years ago. But it only takes 7-9 years.

The Toronto Maple Leafs, prior to becoming a 'consistent playoff team', were last a 'consistent playoff team' in 2004. They entered their current period of 'consistent playoff team' in 2017. A period of 13 years. But it only takes 7-9 years.

The last time the Calgary Flames were a 'consistent playoff team' was 2009. That was 12 years ago. But it only takes 7-9 years.

The Winnipeg Jets/Atlanta Thrashers have never been a 'consistent playoff team.' That franchise was founded in 2000. But it only takes 7-9 years.

St. Louis went 6 years without being a 'consistent playoff team.' But it should take 7-9 years. That 6 year stretch was also the longest period, ever, that the Blues had not been a 'consistent playoff team', with the Blues only missing the playoffs 3 seasons from 1968-2004. Clearly, the only logical conclusion you can make is that the Blues never had to rebuild in that 36 year stretch.

The Carolina Hurricanes, as a franchise, were last a 'consistent playoff team' in 1992. They have only become a 'consistent playoff team' in 2019. A period of 27 years. But it only takes 7-9 years.

The Nashville Predators became a 'consistent playoff team' in 2004. They have missed the playoffs 4 times since, remaining a 'consistent playoff team' for 17 years. Clearly, they have never had to rebuild and 52 year old Tom Fitzgerald boldly soldiers on, still leading the Predators all these years later.

The last time, prior to their current stretch, the Pittsburgh Penguins were a 'consistent playoff team' was in 2001. They regained that status in 2007. 6 years. But, clearly, it takes 7-9 years.

The last time the Washington Capitals were a 'consistent playoff team', prior to their current run, was in 1996 before going into a blackhole that lasted 12 years. But it only takes 7-9 years.

 

[racerjoe]

I tried.

Not sure how you still have the effort.

 

[Killer Orcas]

I said two more years just didn't specify which two !!