Blue Jays Discussion: The long, slow march of a winter off-season

[phillipmike]

Don’t know why people are upset by the lack of ”movement” on pitchers. Literally 5 good/decent pitchers signed for god sakes. There are more talented pitchers available and/or with better upside than the ones that signed.

Plus it was quite clear 3 of the 5 had no shot at being Blue Jays in Odorizz, Wheeler and Hamels.

Jays weren’t giving up the 5th pick in the second round and IFA money so they can overpay Odorizzi or Wheeler. And it is pretty clear Wheeler isn’t coming here.

Hamels refused to waive his no trade clause to come to Toronto in 2015 when we actually had a good team, he wasn’t coming now.

Gibson and Pineda were options but they got player friendly deals. Give me Chase Anderson on a one year deal over those 2 deals.

Gibson on 3 year deal for his aged 33-35 seasons isn’t a great deal either.

Pineda is coming off a a PED suspension and will miss 2020 time. Pineda on a 2 year deal is not a great deal either. Has potential but not great.

Plenty of realistic options left in Keuchel, Ryu, Roark, Porcello, Miley, Hill, Gausman, Wacha, Tehran etc. plus the trade market.

there are 14 teams who have yet to make a signing yet, number grows to 17 if you don’t include minor league deals. The market is still materializing.

 

[phillipmike]

Bowden: Picking a Winter Meetings move for all 30 teams

Bowden trade from article:

Toronto Blue Jays Acquire left-handed pitcher Matthew Boyd from the Detroit Tigers in exchange for outfielder Teoscar Hernández and catcher Gabriel Moreno. The Blue Jays need to improve their starting rotation as they wait for their pitching prospects to develop. Boyd was 6-6 with a 3.87 ERA in the first half last year but dipped to 3-6 with a 5.51 ERA in the second half, which is why they might be able to get him at a discount. Boyd finished the year with a career-high 11.6 strikeouts per 9 innings and is just 28 years old.

 

[phillipmike]

Pham+ for Renfroe and Xavier Edwards.

such a Tampa trade and a great one so far with the details known.

 

[Epictetus]

Don’t know why people are upset by the lack of ”movement” on pitchers. Literally 5 good/decent pitchers signed for god sakes. There are more talented pitchers available and/or with better upside than the ones that signed.

Plus it was quite clear 3 of the 5 had no shot at being Blue Jays in Odorizz, Wheeler and Hamels.

Jays weren’t giving up the 5th pick in the second round and IFA money so they can overpay Odorizzi or Wheeler. And it is pretty clear Wheeler isn’t coming here.

Hamels refused to waive his no trade clause to come to Toronto in 2015 when we actually had a good team, he wasn’t coming now.

Gibson and Pineda were options but they got player friendly deals. Give me Chase Anderson on a one year deal over those 2 deals.

Gibson on 3 year deal for his aged 33-35 seasons isn’t a great deal either.

Pineda is coming off a a PED suspension and will miss 2020 time. Pineda on a 2 year deal is not a great deal either. Has potential but not great.

Plenty of realistic options left in Keuchel, Ryu, Roark, Porcello, Miley, Hill, Gausman, Wacha, Tehran etc. plus the trade market.

there are 14 teams who have yet to make a signing yet, number grows to 17 if you don’t include minor league deals. The market is still materializing.

It has more to do with this franchise being in a big market with a multi-billion dollar corporation as an owner yet continually choose to act like a small club.

The fact you make no mention of the tier 1 free agents says all everyone needs to know about how this fanbase has become conditioned to accept cheapness.

If now is not the time to be considering that tier of free agents, when will it be? When the super cheap core are due for massive contract extensions?

Is it too much to ask the owners and management to act like a big club?

 

[Amadeus]

Pham+ for Renfroe and Xavier Edwards.

View attachment 287183

such a Tampa trade and a great one so far with the details known.

Preller and DiPoto are so similar. They try so much every offseason but nothing works out for them.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Don’t know why people are upset by the lack of ”movement” on pitchers. Literally 5 good/decent pitchers signed for god sakes. There are more talented pitchers available and/or with better upside than the ones that signed.

Plus it was quite clear 3 of the 5 had no shot at being Blue Jays in Odorizz, Wheeler and Hamels.

Jays weren’t giving up the 5th pick in the second round and IFA money so they can overpay Odorizzi or Wheeler. And it is pretty clear Wheeler isn’t coming here.

Hamels refused to waive his no trade clause to come to Toronto in 2015 when we actually had a good team, he wasn’t coming now.

Gibson and Pineda were options but they got player friendly deals. Give me Chase Anderson on a one year deal over those 2 deals.

Gibson on 3 year deal for his aged 33-35 seasons isn’t a great deal either.

Pineda is coming off a a PED suspension and will miss 2020 time. Pineda on a 2 year deal is not a great deal either. Has potential but not great.

Plenty of realistic options left in Keuchel, Ryu, Roark, Porcello, Miley, Hill, Gausman, Wacha, Tehran etc. plus the trade market.

there are 14 teams who have yet to make a signing yet, number grows to 17 if you don’t include minor league deals. The market is still materializing.

I'm less annoyed by the lack of movement than I am the non-sensical "active" and "talkin to everyone" talk.

The rest of the post I largely agree, except for the Gibson statement. He has one of the best sliders in baseball (among starting pitchers). The right franchise, which might indeed be the Rangers given what they've accomplished lately with Lynn and Minor, will change his pitch mix and end up with a Charlie Morton-esque starter. He was the undervalued signing among the starters this offseason.

Also, for a team that is in talent acquisition mode, utilizing the trade market while there are viable options available via free agency is poor strategy. They'll likely get cornered into it, which is a failure IMO.

Bowden: Picking a Winter Meetings move for all 30 teams

Bowden trade from article:

No way Teoscar + Moreno get Boyd. Value is way off unless the Detroit GM is using 10 year old metrics.

 

[GoonieFace]

It has more to do with this franchise being in a big market with a multi-billion dollar corporation as an owner yet continually choose to act like a small club.

The fact you make no mention of the tier 1 free agents says all everyone needs to know about how this fanbase has become conditioned to accept cheapness.

If now is not the time to be considering that tier of free agents, when will it be? When the super cheap core are due for massive contract extensions?

Is it too much to ask the owners and management to act like a big club?

They are usually a top 10 payroll team when they are competetive, so Im not sure your cheap analogy works. Its a shame cheap teams like the Rays and A's never make the playoffs.

 

[Cor]

Wonder if McGuire + would interest them

 

[Epictetus]

They are usually a top 10 payroll team when they are competetive, so Im not sure your cheap analogy works. Its a shame cheap teams like the Rays and A's never make the playoffs.

That's pretty bad.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Personally, the actual number of the payroll means nothing to me. If you're making intelligent moves, and can produce a winning roster with a low payroll, then I hold in an even higher regard. This front-office as currently constituted has not proven to be able to do so as of yet.

Tampa has a low payroll, yet had the best free agent signing of last offseason (Morton). There's not a Brandon Drury, Socrates Brito, Alan Hanson, or Derek Fisher on their roster; nor are they actively seeking such riff-raff. And if there is a player who was once productive who falls into a Drury-esque hole, he is replaced and jettisoned (i.e. Matt Duffy).

 

[BAM]

They are usually a top 10 payroll team when they are competetive, so Im not sure your cheap analogy works. Its a shame cheap teams like the Rays and A's never make the playoffs.

When you're the 3rd largest market in baseball and you have to say we only spend like a top 10 payroll team when we're competitive. You're cheap af.

Nobody expects the Jays to have a payroll north of $170-$180 million and be like the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox.

There is no reason however to not be in the $150-$180 million range annually in this kind of market that has repeatedly shown it will sell out the building nightly for a winning team.

The Jays have so much payroll flexibility that they could literally offer Stras a 5 year, $200 million contract and then pay Betts double that next year and still be in good shape.

They won't though...

 

[BAM]

When you're the 3rd largest market in baseball and you have to say we only spend like a top 10 payroll team when we're competitive. You're cheap af.

Nobody expects the Jays to have a payroll north of $170-$180 million and be like the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox.

There is no reason however to not be in the $150-$180 million range annually in this kind of market that has repeatedly shown it will sell out the building nightly for a winning team.

 

[Mach85]

I'm less annoyed by the lack of movement than I am the non-sensical "active" and "talkin to everyone" talk.

The rest of the post I largely agree, except for the Gibson statement. He has one of the best sliders in baseball (among starting pitchers). The right franchise, which might indeed be the Rangers given what they've accomplished lately with Lynn and Minor, will change his pitch mix and end up with a Charlie Morton-esque starter. He was the undervalued signing among the starters this offseason.

Also, for a team that is in talent acquisition mode, utilizing the trade market while there are viable options available via free agency is poor strategy. They'll likely get cornered into it, which is a failure IMO.



No way Teoscar + Moreno get Boyd. Value is way off unless the Detroit GM is using 10 year old metrics.

This is the distinction I'm seeing too. With AA, doing his due diligence on everyone was seen as a strength because he also tended to make moves. When the activity isn't paired with action then it starts to feel more like window shopping. Not that making moves for the sake of making moves is a good thing; but as others have pointed out, there is clear need this offseason and the core needs supplementing now. Moreover, the financial flexibility is extreme. SOMETHING has to happen this offseason, whether it's FA signings or trades, to fill these holes and improve the team. The time is now.

 

[Cor]

I haven’t been annoyed/upset as others with the front office, but losing Cherington, our scouting director, and then the crap Atkins is saying, is really testing me lol

If we bring in no one of some sort of relevance, I’ll be ticked.

 

[GoonieFace]

I haven’t been annoyed/upset as others with the front office, but losing Cherington, our scouting director, and then the crap Atkins is saying, is really testing me lol

If we bring in no one of some sort of relevance, I’ll be ticked.

This. Its still early in the offseason, but if they don't improve the rotation and centrefield, then this would be considered a huge fail.

 

[kb]

I haven’t been annoyed/upset as others with the front office, but losing Cherington, our scouting director, and then the crap Atkins is saying, is really testing me lol

If we bring in no one of some sort of relevance, I’ll be ticked.

Yeah, up until now I have been ok with cratering the payroll and getting the kids into the lineup. But now the FA clock is ticking, and the window for big ticket adds has opened up.

 

[Longshot]

I haven’t been annoyed/upset as others with the front office, but losing Cherington, our scouting director, and then the crap Atkins is saying, is really testing me lol

If we bring in no one of some sort of relevance, I’ll be ticked.

I'm with you. The last two years have made it hard to have any confidence in management, but at the same time - they were running out the clock on the older team that made the playoffs in 15 and 16 and didn't have a lot of flexibility.

I know Atkins and Shapiro have been careful not to over-promise anything, but as a fan it feels like this winter is the moment they have been slyly pointing to for the past couple years along the lines of: "Just wait until our prospects arrive and we clear out payroll and then you will see action."

If not much happens, it will be pretty disappointing.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'm with you. The last two years have made it hard to have any confidence in management, but at the same time - they were running out the clock on the older team that made the playoffs in 15 and 16 and didn't have a lot of flexibility.

I know Atkins and Shapiro have been careful not to over-promise anything, but as a fan it feels like this winter is the moment they have been slyly pointing to for the past couple years along the lines of: "Just wait until our prospects arrive and we clear out payroll and then you will see action."

If not much happens, it will be pretty disappointing.

And attendance will be brutal

 

[Longshot]

And attendance will be brutal

Isn't it already there?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Isn't it already there?

Yup but will decline even more I think if the go the bargain basement route again

 

[Amadeus]

Wonder if McGuire + would interest them

He is over 30 already so doesnt fall within the age group we may covet. Also, you would need to give up a top 5 prospect for him. Not interested in that!

 

[Longshot]

Yup but will decline even more I think if the go the bargain basement route again

It's something that will be interesting to watch. The question is: can it be worse than last year? The 2019 season was about as bad of a season as the Jays have had in their history (not counting the expansion years).

 

[theaub]

Considering early season attendance usually lags by a year due to season ticket/flex pack purchases etc, I'd expect it to be worse this year.

 

[showtime8]

Would there be any value in signing Michael Wacha?