The Jarmo Thread

[Monk]

In fairness to CBJWerenski8, he provided a list of who he considered the three best GMs in the league to be and then in summary said, "the rest is entirely up for debate". I think there is a distinction there that you didn't pick up on. He didn't specifically say that Jarmo was the fourth best GM in the league; he said that in his opinion the best GMs in the league were Yzerman, Sakic and Armstrong and after that it's just conjecture.

Agree with this (and what CBJW said) and I'll add that there's just way, way too much luck involved in sports to only look at results/outcome to rate GM performance.

 

[Cowumbus]

wasn't Jarmos fault that his cornerstone bricks wanted to be cornerstones in Chicago, New York and Montreal.

Why isn’t it? He traded for Panarin, he drafted Dubois, and he also traded for Jones.
I’m half kidding.

Every GM has to deal with guys wanting to leave, trade requests and the like.

We built a playoff contender

For 1 season, and “contender” is still lenient.

that challenged the best teams in the league

Most playoff teams do

and swept cup champs in the playoffs

How were they the cup champs if they got swept?

 

[CBJx614]

Why isn’t it? He traded for Panarin, he drafted Dubois, and he also traded for Jones.
I’m half kidding.

Every GM has to deal with guys wanting to leave, trade requests and the like.

Yes, every team does have the occasional guy requesting a trade or wanting to leave, we just had the bad timing to have multiple guys who were getting the opportunity to choose their own destiny for the first time in their careers. There's literally nothing else he could have done. The entire city of Columbus was actively recruiting Panarin and Jarmo offered him a max contract essentially. What else is he supposed to do? If players don't want to be in Columbus than good riddance.

Jones wanted the freedom to play where he want, we avoided a massive contract that in hindsight would've prevented Gaudreau and allowed us to restock the cupboards in half the time.

For 1 season, and “contender” is still lenient.

Most around here thought it that team could've gotten past Boston(which we came close to doing) that we had a shot at the ECF. That team was about as loaded as this city has ever had.

Most playoff teams do

No, most teams don't get a reputation for being hard to play against. Most teams knew when they played Columbus that they were gonna get banged up and no matter what it was going to be a grind.

How were they the cup champs if they got swept?

Don't play stupid, you know what I mean. And if you don't, I don't even know why we're having this conversation.

 

[DarkandStormy]

In fairness to CBJWerenski8, he provided a list of who he considered the three best GMs in the league to be and then in summary said, "the rest is entirely up for debate". I think there is a distinction there that you didn't pick up on. He didn't specifically say that Jarmo was the fourth best GM in the league; he said that in his opinion the best GMs in the league were Yzerman, Sakic and Armstrong and after that it's just conjecture.

Eh, feel like I just listed 5 guys who are better than Jarmo. Also, Sakic is no longer GM.

Jarmo isn't a top 10 GM in the league. He has a decade of results to judge him and it hasn't been very good.

The first half of his tenure so far was built around Bobrovsky...a guy he inherited because his predecessor made that trade.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Eh, feel like I just listed 5 guys who are better than Jarmo. Also, Sakic is no longer GM.

Jarmo isn't a top 10 GM in the league. He has a decade of results to judge him and it hasn't been very good.

The first half of his tenure so far was built around Bobrovsky...a guy he inherited because his predecessor made that trade.

Some of the guys who you listed as better than Jarmo also had that exact same benefit with far more to work with. Yet they don’t get penalized?

 

[BB88]

You think the 4th-longest tenured GM in the entire league with only one 2nd round appearance in 10 years might be the *FOURTH BEST* GM? I mean, come on.

-Don Waddell turned around a bad Canes team...they've made it out of the 1st round in each of the last four postseasons, including a Conference Finals appearance in 2019.
-Jim Nill in Dallas - Stars have made the postseason 3 of the last 4 seasons including a Cup Final appearance in 2020.
-David Poile in Nashville - the Predators have made *EIGHT* consecutive postseasons, including a Cup Final appearance in 2017.
-Brian MacLellan in Washington - the Caps have made *EIGHT* consecutive postseasons, including a Stanley Cup in 2018
-Don Sweeney in Boston took over a team that missed the playoffs two years in a row and have since made the postseason the last six years, including being one game away from a Stanley Cup in 2019.
-They don't make it out of the first round, but every year under Kyle Dubas the Maple Leafs make the postseason.

Are you saying these Gm’s are better than Jarmo?

I hope that no one would take Nill over Jarmo for example.
Dallas has been such a badly run team the last few years.
Look at those contracts to Seguin& Benn.
Look at their F depth, they were as one line team as one can get. They’ve been one of the worst scoring teams over the last few years.
They also had abysmal drafting for years and with that an abysmal prospect pool that has lead to all kind of problems.
What Nill has over Jarmo is that they play in the West and not in the East.

& Sweeney has lived off from the Bergeron/Krejci/Pasta/Rask/Chara/Lucic/Hamilton core he in inherited.

That’s Bostons golden core.
Their wheels will likely fall off after this season because Sweeney has done absolutely nothing at F for post Bergeron era.

Give Jarmo that core and he’s making playoffs every season

 

[Cowumbus]

Yes, every team does have the occasional guy requesting a trade or wanting to leave, we just had the bad timing to have multiple guys who were getting the opportunity to choose their own destiny for the first time in their careers. There's literally nothing else he could have done. The entire city of Columbus was actively recruiting Panarin and Jarmo offered him a max contract essentially. What else is he supposed to do? If players don't want to be in Columbus than good riddance.

Winning changes that. Something the team has failed to sustain over 20 years.

Jones wanted the freedom to play where he want, we avoided a massive contract that in hindsight would've prevented Gaudreau and allowed us to restock the cupboards in half the time.

Ok? And then we signed Werenski to a larger contract.

Most around here thought it that team could've gotten past Boston(which we came close to doing) that we had a shot at the ECF. That team was about as loaded as this city has ever had.

That was a wildcard team he built! He sent a 1st rounder and two prospects for Matt Duchene. And it would have been another 1st if Duchene re-signed. Traded a 2nd and Duclair for Dzingle. They barely got in, even with those guys. They couldn’t get past Boston, but they were a contender?

No, most teams don't get a reputation for being hard to play against. Most teams knew when they played Columbus that they were gonna get banged up and no matter what it was going to be a grind.

Hard to play against us a euphemism for “this team is decent while having no star power.” We love hits! But that means you don’t have the puck..

Don't play stupid, you know what I mean. And if you don't, I don't even know why we're having this conversation.

What is this, Nashville? Hang the banner.
“2019 Swept 2020 Cup Champs”

The 2019 Tampa team didn’t have Coleman, Goodrow, Shattenkirk or Bogosian…




I don’t hate Jarmo, but people around here treat him like he’s some amazing GM. He’s probably around 10-15th.

 

[majormajor]

Winning changes that. Something the team has failed to sustain over 20 years.

Ok? And then we signed Werenski to a larger contract.

That was a wildcard team he built! He sent a 1st rounder and two prospects for Matt Duchene. And it would have been another 1st if Duchene re-signed. Traded a 2nd and Duclair for Dzingle. They barely got in, even with those guys. They couldn’t get past Boston, but they were a contender?

Yeah I think they were a contender.

Hard to play against us a euphemism for “this team is decent while having no star power.” We love hits! But that means you don’t have the puck..

Funny enough it was the Richards team that Jarmo inherited that was leading the league in hits. They then immediately went to average in hits when Torts took over. Both teams were usually average in puck possession.

What is this, Nashville? Hang the banner.
“2019 Swept 2020 Cup Champs”

The 2019 Tampa team didn’t have Coleman, Goodrow, Shattenkirk or Bogosian…

They had back to back trips to the ECF and a record 128 pt regular season before getting dominated by the Blue Jackets for 11 straight periods.

I don’t hate Jarmo, but people around here treat him like he’s some amazing GM. He’s probably around 10-15th.

Sounds about right.

 

[CBJx614]

Winning changes that. Something the team has failed to sustain over 20 years.

What do the first 13 years of the team have to do with Jarmo?

Since Jarmo has taken over the team has only finished under .500 3 times and made the playoffs 6 times.

Ok? And then we signed Werenski to a larger contract.

And? We would've had to sign both and then we more than likely wouldn't be able to afford Laine and never had a chance of getting Gaudreau in our laps.

That was a wildcard team he built! He sent a 1st rounder and two prospects for Matt Duchene. And it would have been another 1st if Duchene re-signed. Traded a 2nd and Duclair for Dzingle. They barely got in, even with those guys. They couldn’t get past Boston, but they were a contender?

What was he supposed to do? Sell the farm and start the rebuild?

Hard to play against us a euphemism for “this team is decent while having no star power.” We love hits! But that means you don’t have the puck..

What is this, Nashville? Hang the banner.
“2019 Swept 2020 Cup Champs”

The 2019 Tampa team didn’t have Coleman, Goodrow, Shattenkirk or Bogosian…

And you know why they went out and got most of those players? Because they got f***ing embarrassed on national TV.

I don’t hate Jarmo, but people around here treat him like he’s some amazing GM. He’s probably around 10-15th.

He's not the worlds greatest GM and he's obviously made some mistakes. But Im there aren't many realistic options that would be an upgrade on him. And they obviously have a solid base and core built up. Now it's up to the coaches to develop them properly

 

[Cowumbus]

He's not the worlds greatest GM and he's obviously made some mistakes. But Im there aren't many realistic options that would be an upgrade on him. And they obviously have a solid base and core built up. Now it's up to the coaches to develop them properly

No 1C. No 1D. Debatable 1G.

 

[Fro]

No 1C. No 1D. Debatable 1G.

Werenski is ranked #16 defenseman...that would classify him as a 1D

 

[Cowumbus]

Werenski is ranked #16 defenseman...that would classify him as a 1D

Morgan Reilly is ranked 14. You think he is a 1D?

Why can’t the Leafs get out of the first round?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

No 1C. No 1D. Debatable 1G.

I like how Werenski isn’t even a “debatable” 1D yet Elvis is a “debatable” 1G despite Werenski being overwhelmingly more successful in the NHL.

Werenski is a 1D. The organization thinks they have a 1C on the way with either Sillinger or Johnson, and we’ll see with the goalie. And honestly, having a solid stable of 2C’s can pass without a 1C.

 

[Finner]

Werenski clearly 1D. 1C is missing 1G is tough maybe.

 

[Cowumbus]

I like how Werenski isn’t even a “debatable” 1D yet Elvis is a “debatable” 1G despite Werenski being overwhelmingly more successful in the NHL.

That is because the bar to being considered a 1G is much lower than where it is for a 1D. Werenski no doubt has had a better NHL career. However, you can win a cup with a Crawford, Kuemper, Bennington; you do not need a Price/Vasilevski. Also, I’m not talking about Elvis

If you want to say “debatable 1D” to feel better then go ahead.

Werenski is a 1D. The organization thinks they have a 1C on the way with either Sillinger or Johnson, and we’ll see with the goalie. And honestly, having a solid stable of 2C’s can pass without a 1C.

Show me a cup champion without a 1C.

Recent Cup winning D:
Makar
Hedman
Hedman
Pietrangelo
Carlson
Letang (hurt)
Letang
Keith
Doughty
Keith
Doughty
Chara

Who you taking Werenski over? He’s a great player, but like Morgan Reilly, if he is your 1D you’re going to have a tough time going far.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Current 1D
Makar
Hedman
McAvoy
Fox
Josi
Heiskanen
Pietrangelo
Sieder
Ekblad

Borderline 1D
Slavin
Theodore
Letang
Toews
Jones
Hughes


Top Pair D
Faulk
Doughty
Rielly
Dahlin
Werenski
Weeger
Chabot
Trouba
Byram (yes hot take)
Hamilton

Bolded I take over Werenski “easily”

 

[tunnelvision]

I don’t hate Jarmo, but people around here treat him like he’s some amazing GM.

I don't get that impression by reading the last three pages of this thread. GM with an overall grade of B or C doesn't sound "amazing" to me.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

That is because the bar to being considered a 1G is much lower than where it is for a 1D. Werenski no doubt has had a better NHL career. However, you can win a cup with a Crawford, Kuemper, Bennington; you do not need a Price/Vasilevski.

If you want to say “debatable 1D” to feel better then go ahead.

Show me a cup champion without a 1C.

Recent Cup winning D:
Makar
Hedman
Hedman
Pietrangelo
Carlson
Letang (hurt)
Letang
Keith
Doughty
Keith
Doughty
Chara

Who you taking Werenski over? He’s a great player, but like Morgan Reilly, if he is your 1D you’re going to have a tough time going far.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Current 1D
Makar
Hedman
McAvoy
Fox
Josi
Heiskanen
Pietrangelo
Sieder
Ekblad

Borderline 1D
Slavin
Theodore
Letang
Toews
Jones
Hughes


Top Pair D
Faulk
Doughty
Rielly
Dahlin
Werenski
Weeger
Chabot
Trouba
Byram (yes hot take)
Hamilton

Bolded I take over Werenski “easily”

Werenski is about where John Carlson is. Carlson might have had a higher offensive production season, but Werenski is better defensively (which isn’t saying much with Carlson). You can win with Werenski as a 1D.

 

[cslebn]

That is because the bar to being considered a 1G is much lower than where it is for a 1D. Werenski no doubt has had a better NHL career. However, you can win a cup with a Crawford, Kuemper, Bennington; you do not need a Price/Vasilevski.

If you want to say “debatable 1D” to feel better then go ahead.

Show me a cup champion without a 1C.

Recent Cup winning D:
Makar
Hedman
Hedman
Pietrangelo
Carlson
Letang (hurt)
Letang
Keith
Doughty
Keith
Doughty
Chara

Who you taking Werenski over? He’s a great player, but like Morgan Reilly, if he is your 1D you’re going to have a tough time going far.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Current 1D
Makar
Hedman
McAvoy
Fox
Josi
Heiskanen
Pietrangelo
Sieder
Ekblad

Borderline 1D
Slavin
Theodore
Letang
Toews
Jones
Hughes


Top Pair D
Faulk
Doughty
Rielly
Dahlin
Werenski
Weeger
Chabot
Trouba
Byram (yes hot take)
Hamilton

Bolded I take over Werenski “easily”

Slavin still being underrated. Dude is one the best D in the league.

 

[koteka]

Current 1D
Makar
Hedman
McAvoy
Fox
Josi
Heiskanen
Pietrangelo
Sieder
Ekblad

Borderline 1D
Slavin
Theodore
Letang
Toews
Jones
Hughes


Top Pair D
Faulk
Doughty
Rielly
Dahlin
Werenski
Weeger
Chabot
Trouba
Byram (yes hot take)
Hamilton

Bolded I take over Werenski “easily”

That Pelech/Pullock pair looks pretty good when healthy. I agree that Slavin is underrated.

I think the problem with Werenski is his potential partners all are not worthy of top pair minutes so his play has been hurt. If he had someone that was decent sized, played good defense, and was dependable/consistent, I think he would be a no brainer 1D. But he doesn’t have that. He probably doesn’t need a 2D. He needs a right stick 3/4 who is reliable that he trusts.

 

[Cowumbus]

k

Werenski is about where John Carlson is. Carlson might have had a higher offensive production season, but Werenski is better defensively (which isn’t saying much with Carlson). You can win with Werenski as a 1D.

Werenski is below him, especially back in 17-18 when Carlson was finishing top5 in Norris voting and running one of the best PP in the league.

If NHL players went to the Olympics this year, Carlson plays over Werenski without a doubt. He might even play over him in 2024.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

k

Werenski is below him, especially back in 17-18 when Carlson was finishing top5 in Norris voting and running one of the best PP in the league.

If NHL players went to the Olympics this year, Carlson plays over Werenski without a doubt. He might even play over him in 2024.

I do not agree. As I said, Carlson is a better offensive player, Werenski is a better defenseman.

I also have many qualms with picking Trouba, Chabot, Byram, Theodore, and maybe Jones over him. But it’s your opinion, and I’m clearly not going to change it.

I also like that Letang passes as a 1D on your list for 2017 even though he didn’t play in those finals or very much in that playoff run. But I guess Justin Schultz and Ian Cole can pass as 1D’s too.

But I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cowumbus]

I do not agree. As I said, Carlson is a better offensive player, Werenski is a better defenseman.

noooo

I also have many qualms with picking Trouba, Chabot, Byram, Theodore, and maybe Jones over him. But it’s your opinion, and I’m clearly not going to change it.

Jones? You watched Jones play and you honestly say that?

I also like that Letang passes as a 1D on your list for 2017 even though he didn’t play in those finals or very much in that playoff run. But I guess Justin Schultz and Ian Cole can pass as 1D’s too.

But I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

You continue to cherry pick when I clearly said “hurt” in that post regarding Letang. You have failed to name 1 top D from the last 12 Cup winners where Werenski is better than the top D on that team. You said he is close to Carlson.

So you are saying Werenski is 1D or debatable 1D?

We will see what your view of Jarmo is Thursday when they announce the Kane trade.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

noooo

Jones? You watched Jones play and you honestly say that?

You continue to cherry pick when I clearly said “hurt” in that post regarding Letang. You have failed to name 1 top D from the last 12 Cup winners where Werenski is better than the top D on that team. You said he is close to Carlson.



We will see what your view of Jarmo is Thursday when they announce the Kane trade.

I’m not cherry picking anything. I’m responding to what you want.

No defenseman is a “cup winning” defenseman until they do it. Until Pietrangelo, Hedman, and Chara won a cup, were they “ cup winning defenseman?” They were seen as elite pieces who could win a cup. I think Werenski is a top iairing #1 defenseman, maybe not elite like the other guys you mentioned, but if you have a solid first pairing of two guys who compliment each other well, you don’t need an elite guy. I stand by that. You have to walk before you can run, and Werenski has proven he can be a key guy to contribute on a good team. He’s being asked to do more and did fine last year. It was year 1 as “the guy”, and I’m willing to let him grow into the role.

About Kane, what?

 

[Cowumbus]

I’m not cherry picking anything. I’m responding to what you want.

No defenseman is a “cup winning” defenseman until they do it. Until Pietrangelo, Hedman, and Chara won a cup, were they “ cup winning defenseman?” They were seen as elite pieces who could win a cup. I think Werenski is a top iairing #1 defenseman, maybe not elite like the other guys you mentioned, but if you have a solid first pairing of two guys who compliment each other well, you don’t need an elite guy. I stand by that. You have to walk before you can run, and Werenski has proven he can be a key guy to contribute on a good team. He’s being asked to do more and did fine last year. It was year 1 as “the guy”, and I’m willing to let him grow into the role.

This is what I am getting at.

He is not a 1D, because he cannot “carry a pairing.”
He is absolutely a top pair defenseman. If the Jackets had a RH clone of him to play with they would be in a great spot.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Some of the guys who you listed as better than Jarmo also had that exact same benefit with far more to work with. Yet they don’t get penalized?

At some point, you are your record. A decade I think is an appropriate time. He took some gambles - notably, Panarin - and those didn't work out.