The Hockey Hall of Fame needs more Non-North American players

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Should there be more Non-North American players in the Hockey Hall of Fame?

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 89.7%
  • No

    Votes: 3 10.3%

  • Total voters
    29

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,217
11,315
He isn't though, between 1992/93 season and 2001/02 season Bondra is 5th in goals behind Jagr, Selanne, Bure and Shanahan

And that range was picked to get his first 30+ goal season and and his last 35+ goal season in the range.

NHL Stats

Edit: If I extend the range one season and include 2002/03 Hull jumps both Bure and Bondra. And despite playing 150 more games than Bure he barely outscores him.

View attachment 649702
Came here to say this and in his 10 year prime he was 5th in goals but only 27th in points.

Also his SHG and SHGA numbers don't seem to add up but maybe he was the most opportunist SH goal scorer ever as Hockey reference has him scoring 5 SHG in 97-98 while being on the ice for only 9 SHGA.

Either way the 3 seasons that I was referring to he had lines like this

69-24-19-23
66-31-24-55
62--21-17-38.

Like I said upthread if those 3 seasons he only scores say 80 or 90% of the average of his other 7 years in that 10 year prime his case would be substantially stronger but the playoff resume is like yikes.

Find me any other player that was Top 2 in goals over any 10 year span in league history that isn't in the HHOF, I'll wait.
Ilya Kovalchuk was first in goals from 02-03 to 12-13.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,217
11,315
I agree with the others, but foh with that Mogilny and Kamensky talk. Those dudes can buy a ticket to get into the hall.
I agree with you 100% here but I also think that if the Iron Curtain stayed up it's very likely that both of theses guys would be in the HHOF.

Mogliny is the real enigma here as he often in the NHL looked like what people thought about when viewing him in his early Russian days but then would often just seem to float around and be much less than expected.

Kamensky often "looked" like aHHOF type of player but then injuries really threw his career off course and his early Russian days are interpreted by the HHOF crowd as less than it should be.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
I agree with you 100% here but I also think that if the Iron Curtain stayed up it's very likely that both of theses guys would be in the HHOF.

Mogliny is the real enigma here as he often in the NHL looked like what people thought about when viewing him in his early Russian days but then would often just seem to float around and be much less than expected.

Kamensky often "looked" like aHHOF type of player but then injuries really threw his career off course and his early Russian days are interpreted by the HHOF crowd as less than it should be.

Now, that is a fresh and spicy perspective.

I've got no clue if you're right or not, but you very well may be. Mogilny and Kamensky, if brutally pressed into a Soviet system and forced to play something resembling team hockey, might have been amazing players.

But that didn't happen and they weren't. Thankfully, they can afford tickets.

edit: I do think that the first wave of European "hockey migration" (not counting Borje, et. al.) to North America created quite a few victims...players who might have been something more, but struggled to fit into and even understand their coaching. Val and AlMo may be two of those guys.
 
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GRob83

Registered User
Feb 3, 2010
572
391
Came here to say this and in his 10 year prime he was 5th in goals but only 27th in points.

Also his SHG and SHGA numbers don't seem to add up but maybe he was the most opportunist SH goal scorer ever as Hockey reference has him scoring 5 SHG in 97-98 while being on the ice for only 9 SHGA.

Either way the 3 seasons that I was referring to he had lines like this

69-24-19-23
66-31-24-55
62--21-17-38.

Like I said upthread if those 3 seasons he only scores say 80 or 90% of the average of his other 7 years in that 10 year prime his case would be substantially stronger but the playoff resume is like yikes.


Ilya Kovalchuk was first in goals from 02-03 to 12-13.
He isn't eligible for the HHOF yet.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,767
2,289
He isn't eligible for the HHOF yet.
As I wrote earlier, Lorne Carr was second (first even, I believe) in goals for the league over a ten year span. He’s been retired for a while now, so I think he fits the bill.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
14,362
19,649
Las Vegas
Thinking on it, I know its called the Hockey Hall of Fame, but I think you need to have done something of significance in the NHL to get it. Obvious exception being a Red Curtain situation where it wasn't their choice.

The generic "Hockey" part of it comes in when looking at the totality of your accomplishments on the international stage, but making an impact in the NHL is and should be a pre-requisite.
 

GRob83

Registered User
Feb 3, 2010
572
391
As I wrote earlier, Lorne Carr was second (first even, I believe) in goals for the league over a ten year span. He’s been retired for a while now, so I think he fits the bill.
He should probably be in the HHOF then. Clearly there is a lack of Canadian players. In all seriousness though, he never led the league in goals and scored 204 in his career. His closest career similarity score is Adam Henrique :laugh:
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
14,362
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Las Vegas
I was born 50 years after his career started, it's all I have to go by :laugh:

Looking at his page, he looks like a good player who took advantage of the war years to post seasons above his level.

Only 2x Top 5 in goals or points (both happening in war years) and only 2x AS-1 for personal accolades, which also came in the war years. He was a mid 30 pt guy who spiked with 60 and 74 those 2 seasons.

 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,217
11,315
I was born 50 years after his career started, it's all I have to go by :laugh:
There were less teams in the league but Carr still had 4 top 10 point finishes (including 3rd overall in , Bondra's best was like 18th.

I'm not saying that Carr should be a HHOF guy or not but his resume certainly doesn't look any worse than the one Bondra brings.
 

GRob83

Registered User
Feb 3, 2010
572
391
There were less teams in the league but Carr still had 4 top 10 point finishes (including 3rd overall in , Bondra's best was like 18th.

I'm not saying that Carr should be a HHOF guy or not but his resume certainly doesn't look any worse than the one Bondra brings.
Bondra scored over 500 goals being centered by Michal Pivonka, Andrei Nikolishin and Jan Bulis for most of his career. Compare the quality of linemates to other 500 goal scorers and tell me how he was able to do that.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,217
11,315
Bondra scored over 500 goals being centered by Michal Pivonka, Andrei Nikolishin and Jan Bulis for most of his career. Compare the quality of linemates to other 500 goal scorers and tell me how he was able to do that.
As outlined earlier he did take a few SOG and Pivonka was a decent playmaker and he also played more with Adam Oates than the other 2 guys.

The attempt to imply that Bondra would have been better on a different team really doesn't hold water.
 

GRob83

Registered User
Feb 3, 2010
572
391
As outlined earlier he did take a few SOG and Pivonka was a decent playmaker and he also played more with Adam Oates than the other 2 guys.

The attempt to imply that Bondra would have been better on a different team really doesn't hold water.
He played with Oates on the powerplay more than at even strength, for whatever reason the coaching staff played them on separate lines especially after the run to the finals in 98.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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2,289
He should probably be in the HHOF then. Clearly there is a lack of Canadian players. In all seriousness though, he never led the league in goals and scored 204 in his career. His closest career similarity score is Adam Henrique :laugh:
He belongs no where near the Hall, and neither does Bondra, which is the point- leading or coming in second in goals over a ten year period shouldn't be enough to punch your ticket.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,217
11,315
Meh...probably not. Like someone mentioned, it looks like Carr was a war product primarily...regardless, the metric doesn't have much value anyhow...
Kovo is the better example either way and it's highly unlikely that he makes the HHOF despite being a better goal scorer in isolation
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
51,263
17,103
...How exactly Valery Kamensky has made it in this thread?
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
31,703
4,156
There is an absolutely huge discrepancy in representation at the Hockey Hall of Fame with the majority of players being born or raised in Canada. It makes me wonder if there should be a separate entity of the Hall of Fame that celebrates the careers of players not born and raised in North America and induct 10 or so players that haven't been elected yet to balance things out a bit more. I was born in 83 but I feel like Alex Mogilny, Peter Bondra, Sergei Gonchar, Tomas Vokoun, Pavol Demitra, Jere Lehtinen, Arturs Irbe, Ziggy Palffy and of course some others are absolutely among the best players ever from their respective countries. Canada seems over represented while other countries lack of inductees and in some cases no inductees at all appears to be an oversight.

There is a lot of low cards in that deck. I don't think just because a player is from a weaker hockey country and he is perhaps the best to come from there that it should be a reason to induct him.

I voted yes in this poll because I can think of at least a couple that probably should be in. Boris Mikhailov comes to mind.

Palffy, Irbe, Lehtinen, Demitra and Vokoun for sure no.

That leaves Bondra, Mogilny and Gonchar. I say no to Bondra, although he has a minority of supporters. I just don't see it. He barely cracked 500 goals, and he really was the definition of a one-trick pony.

Mogilny is a guy who for whatever reason people have forgotten his career, and the perception he had during it. He had a lot of lousy seasons in a row, and his great ones were too far apart and too few. He probably should have been better, more consistent. But it almost seemed as if he coasted and had a "meh" attitude about being elite. I swear it seemed like every time Mogilny was on a rush he was going to score. You felt that way at least. But he didn't and left you wanting more. Mogilny in what should have been his prime was anything but a player at his best.

That leaves the guy who is the closest chance in my opinion and that's Gonchar. I can't put him ahead of Zubov. And Zubov barely squeaked in and was a supreme playoff performer too. Gonchar was good in the playoffs as well, but then again, what did he do that Zubov didn't? I just don't think he had enough great years. He was as 2nd team all-star twice. That's it. And these were some weak years too. It was the years Lidstrom was winning the Norris over and over. There should have been some better Norris finishes for him. I love the fact that when he did well his team went far in the playoffs (1998, 2008, 2009) and that even Crosby and Malkin looked lost early in the 2008-'09 season when he was hurt most of the year. But a HHOFer?
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,929
3,823
Should the best hockey player ever from Nigeria, Tanzania, and Zaire be inducted as well?

Or should we leave geography out of the equation when evaluating the merits of a player's place in the HHOF?

In fact, now that I think about it, there is a huge discrepancy between the number of Europeans and Africans being inducted
 

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