The Hockey Hall of Fame needs more Non-North American players

[crobro]

Ivan Hlinka

 

[Boxscore]

Yeah- I keep worrying that they'll cough one up like Håkan Loob... and say "here, look at us!"

My not-entirely merit-based wish-list re: Hall of Fame inductions for future years:


1) Immediately: Starshinov (age 82) & Holecek (turns 79 next month).
2) Next: Pospisil (turns 79 in 2 months) and Mikhailov (turned 78 2 months ago).
3) After that, Maltsev (turns 74 in 2 months) & Martinec (turned 73 2 months ago).

Let's get some of these greats into the Hall, before they die on us. Then, we can avoid graceless ex lax smooth moves like not even considering Suchy- even after his death in early 2021- and instead hacking up the likes of Kevin Lowe.

Then, after we outrace grim death on that front, we can turn our attention to posthumous selections like Suchy, Firsov, Krutov, Petrov...

Why did I assume Holecek, Mikhailov and Maltsev were in?

 

[jcbio11]

Yes sir. Bondra absolutely belongs.

 

[Overrated]

Why did I assume Holecek, Mikhailov and Maltsev were in?

Even Vasiliev and Kasatonov deserve to be in. Maybe even Balderis and V.Alexandrov. Definitely Mogilny and Kamensky.

 

[wetcoast]

If you're Peter Bondra on the Capitals from the mid 90's - mid 00's who are you passing the puck to? His job was to score goals at a time when scoring was at an all-time low and did so over 500 times. He was an excellent penalty killer as well and led the league in short handed goals from 94-04. As far as 1st and 2nd team AS nods go, he lost out to hall of famers every year at a stacked RW position (Jagr, Neely, Selanne, Bure, Hull, Iginla, St. Louis, Alfredsson) or guys that had great individual seasons but not the consistency (Guerin, Bertuzzi, Heatley). He should absolutely be in the conversation. I wonder if Brodeur, Hasek and Roy think he should be in the Hall of Fame.

You are way off base with Bondra as was pointed out above he was really a one trick pony, sort of a poor mans Pavel Bure or a more healthy Marian Gaborik.

the 2 years he led the league in goals he was a distant 4th in all star voting among NHL RWers and his playoff resume is really meh as well.

Bondra also hurts his chances with having 3 quite poor seasons in his best 10 year run, heck if he is even 90% of his normal self in those 3 years he probably would be a HHOF player but he didn't and he isn't.

 

[GRob83]

You are way off base with Bondra as was pointed out above he was really a one trick pony, sort of a poor mans Pavel Bure or a more healthy Marian Gaborik.

the 2 years he led the league in goals he was a distant 4th in all star voting among NHL RWers and his playoff resume is really meh as well.

Bondra also hurts his chances with having 3 quite poor seasons in his best 10 year run, heck if he is even 90% of his normal self in those 3 years he probably would be a HHOF player but he didn't and he isn't.

Sorry, but a one trick pony doesn't lead the league in SHG over a 10 year span while being an excellent penalty killer. In 1995 when he led the league in goals he was on a 60 goal pace over a full season, the following year he scored 52 goals and 28 assists in just 67 games which is a 64 goal/98 point pace. His 2 best seasons in terms of goal scoring pace were incomplete due to lockout or injury. And yet with 3 "quite poor seasons" in that 10 years only Jagr had more goals. Yea, what a bum. Find me any other player that was Top 2 in goals over any 10 year span in league history that isn't in the HHOF, I'll wait.

 

[rmartin65]

Sorry, but a one trick pony doesn't lead the league in SHG over a 10 year span while being an excellent penalty killer. In 1995 when he led the league in goals he was on a 60 goal pace over a full season, the following year he scored 52 goals and 28 assists in just 67 games which is a 64 goal/98 point pace. His 2 best seasons in terms of goal scoring pace were incomplete due to lockout or injury. And yet with 3 "quite poor seasons" in that 10 years only Jagr had more goals. Yea, what a bum. Find me any other player that was Top 2 in goals over any 10 year span in league history that isn't in the HHOF, I'll wait.

Lorne Carr?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Sorry, but a one trick pony doesn't lead the league in SHG over a 10 year span while being an excellent penalty killer. In 1995 when he led the league in goals he was on a 60 goal pace over a full season, the following year he scored 52 goals and 28 assists in just 67 games which is a 64 goal/98 point pace. His 2 best seasons in terms of goal scoring pace were incomplete due to lockout or injury. And yet with 3 "quite poor seasons" in that 10 years only Jagr had more goals. Yea, what a bum. Find me any other player that was Top 2 in goals over any 10 year span in league history that isn't in the HHOF, I'll wait.

He isn't though, between 1992/93 season and 2001/02 season Bondra is 5th in goals behind Jagr, Selanne, Bure and Shanahan

And that range was picked to get his first 30+ goal season and and his last 35+ goal season in the range.

NHL Stats

Edit: If I extend the range one season and include 2002/03 Hull jumps both Bure and Bondra. And despite playing 150 more games than Bure he barely outscores him.

 

[Sturminator]

Even Vasiliev and Kasatonov deserve to be in. Maybe even Balderis and V.Alexandrov. Definitely Mogilny and Kamensky.

I agree with the others, but foh with that Mogilny and Kamensky talk. Those dudes can buy a ticket to get into the hall.

 

[ResilientBeast]

If we just look at his 4 year peak of 94/95 to 97/98 he is the top goalscorer

But if you add 98/99 he falls to 3rd

If you add 93/94 he's tied with Jagr for 1st despite playing less games.

Then add 92/93 he falls to 3rd behind Hull and Selanne.

So he led the league in goals over 5 straight seasons, still an impressive feat. In his 4 year peak despite all his goals...he's 21st in points. One. Trick. Pony

 

[GRob83]

If we just look at his 4 year peak of 94/95 to 97/98 he is the top goalscorer

But if you add 98/99 he falls to 3rd

If you add 93/94 he's tied with Jagr for 1st despite playing less games.

Then add 92/93 he falls to 3rd behind Hull and Selanne.

So he led the league in goals over 5 straight seasons, still an impressive feat. In his 4 year peak despite all his goals...he's 21st in points. One. Trick. Pony

During the seasons you reference, he had 184 goals and scored at a 56.5 goal pace over 82 games. The next highest scoring Capitals forward over that same span was Steve Konowalchuk who had a total of 61 goals and is the only other Capital to even have a 20 goal season. 21st in points is pretty impressive when the 2nd highest scorer on the team (Joe Juneau) was 80th in points. Kinda hard to get assists when you're the only player on the team that can score goals no?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

If we just look at his 4 year peak of 94/95 to 97/98 he is the top goalscorer

But if you add 98/99 he falls to 3rd

If you add 93/94 he's tied with Jagr for 1st despite playing less games.

Then add 92/93 he falls to 3rd behind Hull and Selanne.

So he led the league in goals over 5 straight seasons, still an impressive feat. In his 4 year peak despite all his goals...he's 21st in points. One. Trick. Pony

Bondra is 2nd in goals over the span of ten years (1994 to 2003). Definitely impressive. What's less impressive is he's only 27th in scoring overall (behind a bunch of non-HOF players like Fleury, Tkachuk, Turgeon, Weight, Roenick, Mogilny, Damphousse, LeClair, Yashin, Palffy and Amonte).

Other factors don't help Bondra much (never placed in the top ten in scoring, never was a year-end all-star, never came close to winning the Hart trophy, nothing special defensively, only made it out of the first round 3x and out of the second round twice on generally strong teams, etc).

I wonder how many HOF forwards peaked at 27th in scoring during their best decade (aside from defensive forwards like Gainey and Carbonneau). Even weaker and/or injured HOF'ers like Andreychuk, Duff, Gillies and Lafontaine look better (15th, 20th, 23rd and 11th respectively). Just Cam Neely, I think.

 

[GRob83]

Bondra is 2nd in goals over the span of ten years (1994 to 2003). Definitely impressive. What's less impressive is he's only 27th in scoring overall (behind a bunch of non-HOF players like Fleury, Tkachuk, Turgeon, Weight, Roenick, Mogilny, Damphousse, LeClair, Yashin, Palffy and Amonte).

Other factors don't help Bondra much (never placed in the top ten in scoring, never was a year-end all-star, never came close to winning the Hart trophy, nothing special defensively, only made it out of the first round 3x and out of the second round twice on generally strong teams, etc).

I wonder how many HOF forwards peaked at 27th in scoring during their best decade (aside from defensive forwards like Gainey and Carbonneau). Even weaker and/or injured HOF'ers like Andreychuk, Duff, Gillies and Lafontaine look better (15th, 20th, 23rd and 11th respectively). Just Cam Neely, I think.

Capitals Scoring Leaders during Bondra's tenure. 1st in Goals, Assists and Points.

From 93/94 - 00/01 he had Zero teammates with a 30 goal season.

How was this guy supposed to get assists when he was the only guy that could score?

 

[Overrated]

I agree with the others, but foh with that Mogilny and Kamensky talk. Those dudes can buy a ticket to get into the hall.

Not sure about Kamensky but Mogilny, who is in the triple gold club, had a season with 76 goals and over a 1000 points definitely deserves to be in.

 

[GRob83]

Not sure about Kamensky but Mogilny, who is in the triple gold club, had a season with 76 goals and over a 1000 points definitely deserves to be in.

He had a great season but that was the last season he played with a healthy Pat Lafontaine on the Sabres and is 21 goals and 20 points higher than any other season of his career. He scored 16% of his NHL goal total in that 1 season. He usually wasn't the best player on his team and the Sabres and Canucks both sent him packing in trades before he was even 30 years old. He played with a bunch of HOF players in his career which can't be said of some of the others.

 

[Overrated]

He had a great season but that was the last season he played with a healthy Pat Lafontaine on the Sabres and is 21 goals and 20 points higher than any other season of his career. He scored 16% of his NHL goal total in that 1 season. He usually wasn't the best player on his team and the Sabres and Canucks both sent him packing in trades before he was even 30 years old. He played with a bunch of HOF players in his career which can't be said of some of the others.

Well of course if he hit that every season he'd be in the HOF a long time ago. Pat Lafontaine also benefited from the relationship and hit his career peak there too. The point is that he had one of the greatest seasons out there. He missed a lot of games so he could not hit high numbers consistently but still managed to get a 55 goal and a 43 goal season which also came in one of the lowest scoring seasons. He also won all of the big trophies there are. He is also an over PPG player with over a 1000 points.

 

[GRob83]

Well of course if he hit that every season he'd be in the HOF a long time ago. Pat Lafontaine also benefited from the relationship and hit his career peak there too. The point is that he had one of the greatest seasons out there. He missed a lot of games so he could not hit high numbers consistently but still managed to get a 55 goal and a 43 goal season which also came in one of the lowest scoring seasons. He also won all of the big trophies there are. He is also an over PPG player with over a 1000 points.

The only individual Trophy he ever won was the Byng. He had Two second team All Star nominations in 4 years, after that he was an above average but oft-injured ordinary player that lacked consistency.

 

[Overrated]

The only individual Trophy he ever won was the Byng. He had Two second team All Star nominations in 4 years, after that he was an above average but oft-injured ordinary player that lacked consistency.

He lead the league in goal scoring in 92/93. When it comes down to the Hall of Fame I'd say team awards are at least as important if not more. Triple Gold club is a big + imo.

 

[GRob83]

He lead the league in goal scoring in 92/93. When it comes down to the Hall of Fame I'd say team awards are at least as important if not more. Triple Gold club is a big + imo.

There were no NHL players at the 1988 Olympics and the Soviets were the best team in the world. He had 5 points in the Olympics which was 9th on the team. The Soviet scoring leaders were Krutov, Larionov, Fetisov and Makarov who all had 11 or more. Don't kid yourself, the Soviets won because Mylnikov with a 7-1 record with a 1.63 GAA and the defense shut down a bunch of amateur kids on the rest of the teams.

Now let's discuss his Stanley Cup win. He was 11th on the team in playoff scoring. Martin Brodeur went 16-7 with a .927 SV% and a 1.61 GAA. I would say both of those teams would win without Mogilny.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Well...that's a lot of false info in a tight space, eh?

 

[VMBM]

There were no NHL players at the 1988 Olympics and the Soviets were the best team in the world. He had 5 points in the Olympics which was 9th on the team. The Soviet scoring leaders were Krutov, Larionov, Fetisov and Makarov who all had 11 or more. Don't kid yourself, the Soviets won because Mylnikov with a 7-1 record with a 1.63 GAA and the defense shut down a bunch of amateur kids on the rest of the teams.

Firstly, there were some NHL players plus describing the other teams as "bunch of amateur kids" is rather questionable too.

It wasn't a best-on-best tournament is probably what you wanted to say.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Capitals Scoring Leaders during Bondra's tenure. 1st in Goals, Assists and Points.

From 93/94 - 00/01 he had Zero teammates with a 30 goal season.

How was this guy supposed to get assists when he was the only guy that could score?

I watched Bondra play a lot. He was entertaining, kind of like a poor man's Pavel Bure (I mean that as a compliment). But he just wasn't wired to pass the puck. He was predictable in the sense that, if he was leading a rush, he would shoot the vast majority of the time. His wrist shot was so good that it often worked, but there were countless time when passing the puck appeared to be the better play. (I suspect this is one of the reasons he wasn't very effective in the playoffs - predictable players are easier to contain).

Even after Jagr joined the Capitals, Bondra only got 57 assists over the next two seasons (Jagr score 30+ goals both years). If Bondra was a great passer held back by weak teammates, presumably he would have been able to rack up the assists. He didn't, and it goes back to what I said - Bondra usually looked to shoot.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, this is why balanced attackers are more valuable...adaptability, versatility, balance, these are important and very underrated traits in a player. Bondra didn't go anywhere in the playoffs as the best weapon because of his limitations as a player. Once a better player (Oates) got added to the mix, Bondra was able to get out of the first round. This happens again on a different scale to the same franchise...

 

[GRob83]

Yeah, this is why balanced attackers are more valuable...adaptability, versatility, balance, these are important and very underrated traits in a player. Bondra didn't go anywhere in the playoffs as the best weapon because of his limitations as a player. Once a better player (Oates) got added to the mix, Bondra was able to get out of the first round. This happens again on a different scale to the same franchise...

It took 8 seasons for the Capitals to have a 30 goal scorer other than Bondra. Oates was already 34 years old when the Capitals traded for him. Jagr had the worst statistical seasons of his career with the Capitals. It's not like Bondra played his career surrounded by Hall of Famers in their primes. Once the team lost Ciccarelli and Khristich the next highest goal season other than Bondra was Chris Simon with 29 until Jagr came in. Bondra didn't play with Oates or Jagr very much except on the powerplay when he and Gonchar manned the point.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

It’s worth noting that the logic of “see, no other 30 goal scorers on the team, how could he have gotten assists!” can just as easily cut the other way.

How could they score more than 30 goals!?!? Peter Bondra only had a handful of assists, so clearly that means they weren’t getting the chances they needed to score more!