The Great Dale Weise Debate (& other ex-Hawks) volume 3

[TQE]

Bickell's contract would have been fine if he didn't have MS, and if the Hawks had figured that out instead of Carolina, TT would have been here still. **** happens. Move on.
Johns is a bottom pairing D. Nothing special. Something the Hawks have an abundance of.

FYI, last few times I've caught the end of a Stars game, Johns has been on the ice at crunch time. I seriously doubt Hitch would be running him out there, with them in the playoff chase and all, if his play wasn't warranting it.

Don't kid yourself, we could certainly use him about now. Is he a revelation? No. But, he's certainly better than alot (most) of the options we currently have.

 

[LDF]

FYI, last few times I've caught the end of a Stars game, Johns has been on the ice at crunch time. I seriously doubt Hitch would be running him out there, with them in the playoff chase and all, if his play wasn't warranting it.

Don't kid yourself, we could certainly use him about now. Is he a revelation? No. But, he's certainly better than alot (most) of the options we currently have.

not only him, how bout TT who was traded .....

Blackhawks trade Bickell, Teravainen to Hurricanes - Sportsnet.ca

 

[LDF]

Johns didn't matter several years ago either. Not at all, honestly.

And.. no, you're wrong about Bickell.
2010-2011 - 37 points, 17 goals 20 assists
2011-2012 - 24 points, 9 goals, 15 assists - Missing 11 games to injury, and I believe playing injured for a chunk of the season.
2012-2013 - 23 points in 48 games - He was on pace to finish with 40+ points(lockout shortened season), and he had a dominant playoffs where he had 9 goals and 8 assists for 17 points.
2013-2014 - 15 points, 11 goals, 4 assists - He only played 59 games. He had knee injuries all season, and missed a ton of games due to them.
2014-2015 - 28 points, 14 goals, 14 assists - He played ok, but you could tell something was wrong with him already, or his injured knees from the year prior were still an issue. He wore knee braces every time he was on the ice.
2015-2016 - played 25 games for the Hawks. Was very obvious something was wrong with him. He would be diagnosed with MS less than 6 months after the end of the 2015-2016 season.

So no, you're wrong about Bickell. He was a solid player, and if he hadn't fallen off a cliff due to his MS(diagnosed in November of 2016), but likely affecting him for at least one season, but probably the two prior, his contract is slightly overpaid, but still movable, and it doesn't cost TT.

bickell until that playoff series had a rep of under performing .....

 

[TQE]

Well, no doubt we could use Teuvo at the rate he's producing now. Have to remember though that he could be quite frustrating and did not show any progression that last year he was here. No guarantee he would be having the success he's having in Carolina had he remained here.

I wish he was still here to find out though.

 

[ChiHawks10]

bickell until that playoff series had a rep of under performing .....

I literally just posted the stats for you. And you are just making something up to try and back up your point. That's not how this works. Find me some evidence/proof that he had a "rep of under performing". The stats say otherwise. I'd love to see it. Because your assertions about Bickell are just made-up revisionist history at this point. If not for MS, he's likely a perennial 30-40 point guy for most of his career. Which isn't bad. By any means.

 

[ChiHawks10]

FYI, last few times I've caught the end of a Stars game, Johns has been on the ice at crunch time. I seriously doubt Hitch would be running him out there, with them in the playoff chase and all, if his play wasn't warranting it.

Don't kid yourself, we could certainly use him about now. Is he a revelation? No. But, he's certainly better than alot (most) of the options we currently have.

Johns is a solid defensive player. But he's a 3rd pairing guy, at best.. I never said he wouldn't be better than someone like Gustafsson. But he's nothing special, which was my only point. People point to losing him like we lost the second coming of Keith or some shit. When it's not even remotely close to that. I'm more irritated losing Kempny, due to Q, than I am losing Johns years ago.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Johns is better than Kempny.

 

[LDF]

I literally just posted the stats for you. And you are just making something up to try and back up your point. That's not how this works. Find me some evidence/proof that he had a "rep of under performing". The stats say otherwise. I'd love to see it. Because your assertions about Bickell are just made-up revisionist history at this point. If not for MS, he's likely a perennial 30-40 point guy for most of his career. Which isn't bad. By any means.

the point is, most defenses are to post the proof. well a lot of those rpts were removed or were tweets that does stay long on the internet.

that still don't mean i am wrong, btw how come you can't remember those publish rpts ??? selective memory, when i posted them before, how come you and a select few don't remember when i did post those snippets.

 

[LDF]

Well, no doubt we could use Teuvo at the rate he's producing now. Have to remember though that he could be quite frustrating and did not show any progression that last year he was here. No guarantee he would be having the success he's having in Carolina had he remained here.

I wish he was still here to find out though.

ref to TT, you are correct he might have developed in something else, no one can say. however TT was in his 2nd full season with the Bhawks and at an age 21 yrs of age. the following yr in Car, he what he did was pretty close to what he did the yr before with the Bhawks.

Teuvo Teravainen Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[LDF]

Johns is a solid defensive player. But he's a 3rd pairing guy, at best.. I never said he wouldn't be better than someone like Gustafsson. But he's nothing special, which was my only point. People point to losing him like we lost the second coming of Keith or some ****. When it's not even remotely close to that. I'm more irritated losing Kempny, due to Q, than I am losing Johns years ago.

he is now a 3rd pairing and this was after the fact. he was projected to be maybe a 2nd pairing and at worst a 3rd pairing, which he is now. however what was the team's defensive situation and salary cap when the team traded his and who else to Dal ??

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Johns didn't matter several years ago either. Not at all, honestly.

And.. no, you're wrong about Bickell.
2010-2011 - 37 points, 17 goals 20 assists
2011-2012 - 24 points, 9 goals, 15 assists - Missing 11 games to injury, and I believe playing injured for a chunk of the season.
2012-2013 - 23 points in 48 games - He was on pace to finish with 40+ points(lockout shortened season), and he had a dominant playoffs where he had 9 goals and 8 assists for 17 points.
2013-2014 - 15 points, 11 goals, 4 assists - He only played 59 games. He had knee injuries all season, and missed a ton of games due to them.
2014-2015 - 28 points, 14 goals, 14 assists - He played ok, but you could tell something was wrong with him already, or his injured knees from the year prior were still an issue. He wore knee braces every time he was on the ice.
2015-2016 - played 25 games for the Hawks. Was very obvious something was wrong with him. He would be diagnosed with MS less than 6 months after the end of the 2015-2016 season.

So no, you're wrong about Bickell. He was a solid player, and if he hadn't fallen off a cliff due to his MS(diagnosed in November of 2016), but likely affecting him for at least one season, but probably the two prior, his contract is slightly overpaid, but still movable, and it doesn't cost TT.

Sorry but Bickell was far from a solid player

His entire professional career was of horrendous inconsistency year to year

 

[Hawkaholic]

Sorry but Bickell was far from a solid player

His entire professional career was of horrendous inconsistency year to year

Define solid.
He provided physicality, goals, and was a reliable player. He was inconsistent, most bottom 6 guys are. If he could have been a 35-40pt player, we definitely wouldn't have had to dump TT to get rid of him.

 

[TQE]

ref to TT, you are correct he might have developed in something else, no one can say. however TT was in his 2nd full season with the Bhawks and at an age 21 yrs of age. the following yr in Car, he what he did was pretty close to what he did the yr before with the Bhawks.

Teuvo Teravainen Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

I guess it could be chalked up to the age/maturation process -- as simple as that.

I do think moving to somewhere like Carolina gave him alot more room to grow and come into his own. I had the impression, especially at the end of that last season, that he was stifled for whatever reason. Whether it was his unassuming and shy nature or he was kept at a distance by the core, or whatever.

 

[clydesdale line]

Bickell did not bring it every night and had a questionable desire and inconsistency issues since his Ottawa 67 days (with his size, shot, etc should've definitely been a much better player). People reaching for the MS disease because of it later on in his career is being disingenuous. With that said, he was a decent player before that. People harp on Q a bit with getting the most out of certain players but I believe he got the most out of what he could with Bicks.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Sorry but Bickell was far from a solid player

His entire professional career was of horrendous inconsistency year to year

Not really. He was a solid 3rd/4th line player. The only two years his points were inconsistent, he was injured. The rest of the time he was basically a 30+ point guy who brought some physicality. But all 3rd and 4th line players are somewhat inconsistent. He was solid in his role, in my opinion.

And clydesdale, no one is reaching for the MS excuse. I didn't use it at all except for his final couple seasons, where it was obvious something was wrong with him to anyone with eyes.

 

[ChiHawks10]

the point is, most defenses are to post the proof. well a lot of those rpts were removed or were tweets that does stay long on the internet.

that still don't mean i am wrong, btw how come you can't remember those publish rpts ??? selective memory, when i posted them before, how come you and a select few don't remember when i did post those snippets.

Cop-out excuse. You can find anything on the internet. Pretty much nothing goes away once it's on the internet. I can go find articles about the hawks from 10+ years ago. And uhhhh... You weren't posting here until 2 months before Bickell was diagnosed with MS. You joined in september of 2016. Bickell was already traded to Carolina when you started posting here. Bickell was diagnosed with MS in November of 2016. You didn't post any reports of anything for anyone to "selectively remember". Nice try though. Find your evidence. When you make a statement like "There were reports of him blah blah blah" the onus is on you to provide evidence to back it up.

 

[x Tame Impala]

1) Bickell had consistency issues independent of his illness

2) The Sharp trade will always be a bad one, but Johns is hardly a devastating loss. IF he would've made the Hawks a better team, I highly doubt it would be a significant improvement.

 

[Blue Liner]

Bickell had consistency issues dating back to his junior days in Ottawa. It was part of the knock on him pre-draft.

 

[BobbyJet]

1) Bickell had consistency issues independent of his illness That were highly exaggerated.

2) The Sharp trade will always be a bad one, but Johns is hardly a devastating loss. IF he would've made the Hawks a better team, I highly doubt it would be a significant improvement.

Have you seen the disaster Hawks call a defensive core lately? Johns is a bigger loss than some would like to admit and I reckon he will only get better with experience.

 

[x Tame Impala]

The lack of Stephen Johns on the roster is not the difference between the Hawks being in the gutter or a playoff team

 

[LDF]

Cop-out excuse. You can find anything on the internet. Pretty much nothing goes away once it's on the internet. I can go find articles about the hawks from 10+ years ago. And uhhhh... You weren't posting here until 2 months before Bickell was diagnosed with MS. You joined in september of 2016. Bickell was already traded to Carolina when you started posting here. Bickell was diagnosed with MS in November of 2016. You didn't post any reports of anything for anyone to "selectively remember". Nice try though. Find your evidence. When you make a statement like "There were reports of him blah blah blah" the onus is on you to provide evidence to back it up.

i found the main topic that was discussed jul 3, 2015 from another site. i also saw a rumor page that had 1 snippet but it has been removed. i also saw a mild discussion on this forum in the black hawks site with a little mention of it. btw, i saw some of the names that are still here.

so call it what you want. it has been discuss before and yet you conveniently don't recall any of those thread discussing it. even the one where i posted the link last yr, when i first joined this msg board.

ref to the bold, remember their is more than 1 msg board that talks chi sports.

 

[LDF]

Not really. He was a solid 3rd/4th line player. The only two years his points were inconsistent, he was injured. The rest of the time he was basically a 30+ point guy who brought some physicality. But all 3rd and 4th line players are somewhat inconsistent. He was solid in his role, in my opinion.

And clydesdale, no one is reaching for the MS excuse. I didn't use it at all except for his final couple seasons, where it was obvious something was wrong with him to anyone with eyes.

yet several posters are posting other wise....

you are intent in another post to key on sites that i can not find, yet you can't disprove what some are posting as the truth.

the lack of trading bickell forced moving sharp and john as well as TT and bickell. that winning of that cup was the Bhawks had a real chance at the really having a chance to win another cup.

 

[Hawkaholic]

The lack of Stephen Johns on the roster is not the difference between the Hawks being in the gutter or a playoff team

Definitely not. neither is the "misuse" of Kempny.

 

[ChiHawks10]

i found the main topic that was discussed jul 3, 2015 from another site. i also saw a rumor page that had 1 snippet but it has been removed. i also saw a mild discussion on this forum in the black hawks site with a little mention of it. btw, i saw some of the names that are still here.

so call it what you want. it has been discuss before and yet you conveniently don't recall any of those thread discussing it. even the one where i posted the link last yr, when i first joined this msg board.

ref to the bold, remember their is more than 1 msg board that talks chi sports.

I'm not talking about another site. I don't use another site. I'm talking about this site. Not everyone browses other sites or message boards. And you mention July 3, 2015... are you aware Bickell very, very likely had MS as of that date? His diagnosis was a little more than a year later, and he was displaying the vertigo symptoms, balance issues, etc. all throughout that previous season.

And yes, a couple people commented on his consistency. As did I. But year to year, his consistency wasn't that bad in the NHL. As I said, with the exception of the two years he spent time hurt, his point production was fairly consistent, right around 30+ points per season.

That still does nothing to take away from the fact that if he did not have MS, the Hawks wouldn't have lost TT in trade, which was my entire point. The contract wasn't that bad. If Bickell doesn't have MS, he would be a serviceable player for an NHL team, and it wouldn't have cost this team TT to move him.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Johns is better than Kempny.

You missed the point. Johns being moved is not something that killed the team. Just like Kempny being moved isn't something that killed the team. I was just pointing out that being furious about Johns being traded years ago is ridiculous. It's not like the Hawks lost a top pairing D for nothing. They lost a 3rd pairing guy, of which there are plenty in the system/around the league that can be had.