The Core Has To Go

[thusk]

Once again that doesn’t tell the whole story yes nylander is the weakest defensively of the four but he’s been improving his game defensively the captain doesnt drive play 5 on 5 and he’s still prone to errors just obviously more defensively sound that being said one is one the incline the other is on the decline even marner who’s all world couldn’t drive play in the playoffs with the captain and getting secondary matchups and I know it doesn’t mean much but he was arguably our best forward game four and five

Nylander its not about being weak defensivly... hes not as bad... its just.lack of work

Nylander skill is higher than tavares. Every one would be agree with it and if hh would have the same work ethic than JT, he would probably be as good than David Pastrnak... but he dont have any work ethic, so because of it... hes probably closer of Mike Hoffman than Pastrnak in term of quality of player

 

[arso40]

Nylander its not about being weak defensivly... hes not as bad... its just.lack of work

Nylander skill is higher than tavares. Every one would be agree with it and if hh would have the same work ethic than JT, he would probably be as good than David Pastrnak... but he dont have any work ethic, so because of it... hes probably closer of Mike Hoffman than Pastrnak in term of quality of player

Haha I get what ur saying he has lapses of effort for sure but I feel like he’s turned a corner cause as good as he’s been he never really showed that kind of effort in the playoffs to me too little too late but I believe the fact he’s paid way less and doesn’t get to wear a letter regardless of who’s out I think he feels like he can pull da chute from time to time

 

[thusk]

Haha I get what ur saying he has lapses of effort for sure but I feel like he’s turned a corner cause as good as he’s been he never really showed that kind of effort in the playoffs to me too little too late but I believe the fact he’s paid way less and doesn’t get to wear a letter regardless of who’s out I think he feels like he can pull da chute from time to time

But the reason why hes paid more less than the rest of core and didn't get a letter is exactly for the same exact reason

 

[steam whistle]

Tampa trading away McDonagh? Tampa's current GM neither traded for the player nor did he sign him to his current contract (which included the NTC). McDonagh also is from Minnesota and was not Tampa's captain. Vastly different circumstances and situations involved.

I should probably just halt this bit of diversion here. Cheers!

Ryan was new York Rangers captain before he was traded to Tampa Bay. Go to ask google


McDonagh, Miller traded to Lightning by Rangers


keep me posted for your feedback please, I felt need a drink now for my 15+ yrs hockey knowledge

 

[arso40]

But the reason why hes paid more less than the rest of core and didn't get a letter is exactly for the same exact reason

Chiccen or the egg right ?

 

[notDatsyuk]

But like i saif MOST of the time its free pts but yes sometime its great play...

3 pts he had gm 4 is vs tampa is a great exemple... both matthews goal he just watching marner pass to matthews and kerfoot goal when he just watching kerfoot deflected gio shot...

0 26 goal/ 60 and 0.56 primary assist is nylander stats at 5v5 last 2 post season...

Just as exemple
Matthews 1.17 g/60 ans 0.37 a1/60
Marner 0.84g and 1.41 A1/60
Tavares 1.2 g and 0.24 A1

You have a very weird idea of 'just watching'. Willy was instrumental in at least two of those three goals.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Staying or Going? Remaking the Maple Leafs' Core After Playoff Exit

It's never not dramatic in Toronto when it involves the Maple Leafs. The Leafs were eliminated by the Florida Panthers 3-2 in overtime of Game 5 on Friday…

bleacherreport.com

Staying or Going? Remaking the Maple Leafs' Core After Playoff Exit

JOE YERDON

MAY 13, 2023

It's never not dramatic in Toronto when it involves the Maple Leafs.

The Leafs were eliminated by the Florida Panthers 3-2 in overtime of Game 5 on Friday night, ushering in an offseason ripe for change. It's another year without a Stanley Cup, and while it was finally a season in which Toronto escaped the first round of the playoffs (for the first time since 2004), it bowed out quickly in the second round.

"We lose the series in the first three games," Maple Leafs coach Sheldon Keefe said. "I thought we played well enough to win the game [Friday night], but the first three games, we're in similar positions we were in Games 4 and 5, and we didn't handle the situations well and didn't capitalize on our chances. The margin for error is basically none because of our results in the first three games, so that's where we lose the series."

Losing in the playoffs has become all too common for the Maple Leafs, and they're in a precarious position. This is the fifth straight year they've tried to win a Cup with Kyle Dubas as the general manager as well as the core four of Auston Matthews, John Tavares, William Nylander and Mitchell Marner. It's the fourth straight season that's ended in disappointment with Keefe behind the bench.

Everyone thought something had to give when the Leafs lost to the Tampa Bay Lightning in seven games last year, but they ran it back. That doesn't seem likely now, and there are questions to ask regarding who's staying and who's going, so let's get right to it.

Going: Kyle Dubas

Going: Sheldon Keefe

Staying: John Tavares

Staying: Auston Matthews

Going: Mitchell Marner

Staying: William Nylander

 

[Throw More Waffles]

In response to Oilers being too much of a top heavy team for the playoffs, Gretzky says “Why Edmonton? Toronto has players on milk cartons”.

Imagine being the core 4 and having THE GREAT ONE say that about you.

They should be embarrassed. But I doubt they are. Matthews probably saw that, laughed, and lit a $200 cigar with a burning $100 bill.

 

[leafs in five]

yeah that's probably exactly what Matthews did

 

[Tak7]

In response to Oilers being too much of a top heavy team for the playoffs, Gretzky says “Why Edmonton? Toronto has players on milk cartons”.

Imagine being the core 4 and having THE GREAT ONE say that about you.

They should be embarrassed. But I doubt they are. Matthews probably saw that, laughed, and lit a $200 cigar with a burning $100 bill.

One of the greatest players to ever play the game, on a national broadcast, calling you that, is the sort of embarrassment that I'd be seething about.

As I mentioned in the post-season pressers thread, I never doubt these guy's ability to care. But they don't hate losing enough to be successful as a collective. I highly doubt any of them will have heard that and felt the sting of it.

 

[Dayjobdave]

I got home late and found myself watching the second and third OT of the Panther Carolina game. I don’t think we could have scored against either of those D s with how hard they were playing and what was permitted.

Also, make no mistake they are good teams. We are both not good enough or hard working enough to think we should be favoured against either team.

 

[justashadowof]

The knee-jerk reaction is to cry out "clear them all out!" But I can remember back as recently as 2016-17 and how players like Bozak, JVR and Kadri instantly became much more effective after the influx of enthusiastic talented youth. Not everyone has to go. I do think the ideal situation is going younger. Swap 2 of the 4 big ticket forwards for robust up and comers.

Since none are actually the disruptive types of personalities, it's only practicalities that should influence the decisions of who to deal:

1. Could a trade to another NHL organization work for John Tavares and the Leafs? If yes, that would be the first possible move to consider.
2. Who is going to be difficult to re-sign?
3. Is there a player who would fit better or worse under the new management philosophy?

 

[thusk]

You have a very weird idea of 'just watching'. Willy was instrumental in at least two of those three goals.

Yep maybe matthews pp goal but anyway my point is nylander is nothing else than a pp specialist who having a negative impact at 5v5

1st matthews goal is one of his 5v5 point. This play happened because marner worked hard in neutral to bring back the puck... nylander on a 2v2 tried to create himself a shooting lane but failed his play so just drop the pass... Matthees worked hard to beat perry/bellemare cover and its what who creating that goal marner/matthews work... so he get an assist to missed what he tried to do so yes no doubt for me it wqs a free pts.

Gm 2 jt goal
He skated in open space in neutral zone, gave the puck to rielly and missed the puck on tip-in. So get a pts for skating and a missed offensive play

Gm 3 vs florida was great play
But overall nylander had 1 goal 3 assist and 2 of those assist a was free pts on missed play.

Last season same story, 0 goal at 5v5 2 assist and one of those 2 assist he just push the puck from a faceoff to giordano

so last 18 playoff 1 goal 5 assist... 3 of those assist was free pts... his real contribution is 1 goal 2 assist.... knies had a higher 5v5 offensive impact in 1/3 of nylander game and by far a much higher defensive impact.

Do the leafs really need to pay 7M and probably more after next season for a pp specialist whos statistically having same kind of offensive impact at 5v5 in playoff than lafferty, kampf, acciari who cost 1.5M or less ...

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yep maybe matthews pp goal but anyway my point is nylander is nothing else than a pp specialist who having a negative impact at 5v5

1st matthews goal is one of his 5v5 point. This play happened because marner worked hard in neutral to bring back the puck... nylander on a 2v2 tried to create himself a shooting lane but failed his play so just drop the pass... Matthees worked hard to beat perry/bellemare cover and its what who creating that goal marner/matthews work... so he get an assist to missed what he tried to do so yes no doubt for me it wqs a free pts.

Gm 2 jt goal
He skated in open space in neutral zone, gave the puck to rielly and missed the puck on tip-in. So get a pts for skating and a missed offensive play

Gm 3 vs florida was great play
But overall nylander had 1 goal 3 assist and 2 of those assist a was free pts on missed play.

Last season same story, 0 goal at 5v5 2 assist and one of those 2 assist he just push the puck from a faceoff to giordano

so last 18 playoff 1 goal 5 assist... 3 of those assist was free pts... his real contribution is 1 goal 2 assist.... knies had a higher 5v5 offensive impact in 1/3 of nylander game and by far a much higher defensive impact.

Do the leafs really need to pay 7M and probably more after next season for a pp specialist whos statistically having same kind of offensive impact at 5v5 in playoff than lafferty, kampf, acciari who cost 1.5M or less ...

You seem to be confusing Nylander with Tavares.

Last year Nylander had 31 ES goals and 7 PP. Tavares had 18 ES and 18 PP. In the playoffs, each had 6 ES points, but Willy had twice as many PP goals and points, despite only half the PP time.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Now I didn’t say all of that but he can still help a young team maybe haha I unno but I would force him to wave his Clause sit him out if you have to but he’s a hindrance


How many years is this stat line ? Tavares is the only player of the core four on a decline …..no thanks

11 games! And he omits second assists because that's the only way he can make Willy look bad.

Regular season pts/60 it was:
Marner 2.79
Matthews 2.73
Nylander 2.62
Tavares 2.09

He does have some weird obsession with pretending Willy is worse than JT.

 

[thusk]

You seem to be confusing Nylander with Tavares.

Statistically Tavares had 3 goal 2 assist ( 1 primary assist) this season and 2 goal no assist last season so 5 goal 2 assist

His secondary assist was in reality a primary tavares winning 1v1 battle and sent the puck in the slot to rielly and knies just touched it a bit

His assist on nylander goal was maybe a frew pts so 5 goal in 1 assist >>>> 1 goal 2 assist impact

 

[GoBuds14]

The disappearing act in the playoffs is so worrisome. I thought Matthews finally got over that hump with a very solid Tampa series, I think I still keep him despite the disaster in the Florida series because he did seem a little snake bit on some chances he’d normally bury (still not an excuse, you’re paid to produce and he simply did not). Nylander seems to score big goals in the playoffs, despite him appearing to coast a lot. Marner is the one I’d consider moving, which hurts me to say. He does so many great things offensively and defensively and he’s arguably our most valuable regular season player, but his game doesn’t appear suited for the playoffs and I feel the sample size is large enough to reach that conclusion.

 

[therealkoho]

I disagree. If a Seguin or an Eichel can be traded a Matthews certainly can.

Finding similar value would be near impossible but it's not always about similar value, it's always about improving your team.

Fixed it for you, yer welcome

 

[hamzarocks]

Statistically Tavares had 3 goal 2 assist ( 1 primary assist) this season and 2 goal no assist last season so 5 goal 2 assist

His secondary assist was in reality a primary tavares winning 1v1 battle and sent the puck in the slot to rielly and knies just touched it a bit

His assist on nylander goal was maybe a frew pts so 5 goal in 1 assist >>>> 1 goal 2 assist impact

Tavares is a cancer which we can't get rid of

JT didn't set up or create any chances on his own that 2nd series

Nylander set him up multiple times in game 2 and the choker missed easy taps

John tavares is jason blake without nylander of marner on his line.

1 nothing assist in 5 games is a series that should be getting him traded out from here

Terrible defensive player to, bad IQ and no speed awareness

 

[therealkoho]

After the 2012-13 CBA adjustment, the cap went up by an average of $3 million per year pre-Covid. Hard not to count on it continuing to rise.

Those raises were due mainly to the PA voting to push the cap up, income hasn't supported those raises and why the escrow is so high.

During the lockdown I don't believe they had enough income to support a 70m cap and yet there's the owners honoring all contracts that were based on an 80m cap. Which means they the players were taking a lot more than the intended 50% of HRR.

The players have not yet stopped bitching about the 15% escrow they're paying, and whom are partly responsible for because of using the escalator each and every year it was available.

 

[rumman]

After the 2012-13 CBA adjustment, the cap went up by an average of $3 million per year pre-Covid. Hard not to count on it continuing to rise.

but not impossible, I seem to remember something about counting chickens before they hatch............

 

[therealkoho]

The league was predicting the cap to go up. There were no economic indicators to suggest otherwise. TV deals were in place and new ones on the horizon. The cap had gone up 13 out of the 14 years in the cap era and the only year it didn't was due to the lock out. To suggest that it's managements fault for assuming it would go up as all teams did is just silly.

The players voted for the escalators every year they were available, so they could negotiate against a higher number. Greed isn't only the purview of ownership.

 

[thusk]

11 games! And he omits second assists because that's the only way he can make Willy look bad.

Regular season pts/60 it was:
Marner 2.79
Matthews 2.73
Nylander 2.62
Tavares 2.09

No i didn't consider secondary assist because over 80-85% of the time player who get the second assist didn't had higher impact on the play than the rest of player on the ice

Nylander get a lot of secondary assist because his skating ability and the fact hes was playing a lot on peripheric where you will get a lot of space... so he will touch much more puck than a guy like tavares, oreilly who will drive the net and going in dirty area

But at the end skating in neutral zone with tje puck or around the board doesn't make nylander a better player

Tavares is a cancer which we can't get rid of

JT didn't set up or create any chances on his own that 2nd series

Nylander set him up multiple times in game 2 and the choker missed easy taps

John tavares is jason blake without nylander of marner on his line.

1 nothing assist in 5 games is a series that should be getting him traded out from here

Terrible defensive player to, bad IQ and no speed awareness

Yes and no

1-Im agree tavares is not kind of player you will create a lot of scoring chance by himself and its the same thing with a guy like oreilly... its kind of player who will rush the net, deflect shot, screen goalie, took rebound, and fighting in the slot... but yes hes too slow to create scoring from the rush....

2-Nylander is a most dynamic player by his skating ability and he having the puck on his stick a lot of time but at the end he dont creating more offensive opportunity come playoff time when space disappear... because he stay in peripheric and didn't work.

Number of scoring chance by both at 5v5
Tavares 41 Vs nylander 37
High danger chance
tavares 23 vs nylander 19


3- yes im also agree than jt is the worst leafs c defensivly... but nylander was by far the worst leafs player in defensive zone last 2 playoff

4-And yes hes overpay and hes not peven close to deserve 11M but leafs dont have any choice than keep him. Its a fact if we like it or not... but if we forgot the salary for a second, if i hve to choose between tavares and nylander at same salary.. i keep tavares all day long. But yes i know his salary is pretty bad

 

[therealkoho]

Same. I figured Marner for 9, 9.5 tops but I also figured on 7 years. Then it was 11, and the 6 year term was insult added to injury.

I've said it probably hundreds of times by now, I like most of what Dubas has done but he's made some mistakes and that contract was by far the most obvious one.

We can bitch and moan about what any of them signed for, but it changes nothing.

The fact is that it has become a problem moving forward and if Marner is overpaid then Matthews is as well. I would also say that Marner even though overpaid is more valuable per min of ice time then is Matthews.

The only thing that Mitch doesn't do is put the puck into the net at superstar levels, which is the only thing Matthews really does better.

When a line isn't going it's Mitch that gets the job to turn it around, not Matthews, not Will and not JT. When the PK was struggling put MM on it and suddenly a respectable Kill that's dangerous offensively, not Will, not Auston and not JT.

We didn't get bounced out of the playoffs just because MM wasn't setting up goals, we got bounced because our team got filled in

There wasn't enough pushback from the big dogs and there wasn't enough from the bottom of the lineup. The only remedy is to pick up some of those players and that requires money.

Just remember Marner can set anyone up, anyone, Bunting Jarkrok, JT, Kerfoot, Mikheyev, vanRymsdiek, Bozak, and helped turn Matthews into an MVP. Pretty good resume.

The Leafs need guys who are willing to crush people on the forecheck but they also need guys who can create offence.

You aren't trading Matthews or Will and getting Matthews and Will back, but what you can get is

2 or 3 bone crushers up front
A young grade A prospect centreman with some bite
Enough cash to sign Klingberg, and resign ROR, Acciari and Lafferty
A handful of premium picks

 

[therealkoho]

Yes the cap went up equally for everyone but it's the timing that hurt the Leafs. When the Leafs signed Matthews the cap was $81.5M and 5 years later it's $82.5M. Crosby signed 10 years ago when the cap was $64.3 and still only makes $8.7M for two more years. Contracts that long aren't allowed anymore but that sure turned out well for the Pens.

Just as we got everyone (except Reilly) signed, the cap froze. The timing is different for every team but the Leafs were very unlucky. We did probably save $1M on Rielly though.

This might actually work out for us in the future because if we were to sign Matthews this summer for the same percentage of the cap he'd only get a very small raise.

Crosby was no gamble, he had already shown them the kind of competitor he was, our guys were given money they not only hadn't earned, but did not deserve. It was a huge miscalculation by an over eager GM.