The Core Has To Go

[666]

Why would I post in the trades forum? You go ahead if you want.

I'm not blaming one guy for the teams issues.

Never trade "a Marner" away - way too dogmatic IMO. Music to his agents ears though I'm sure.

I'm not the one that wants Marner gone or have you flip flopped again?

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm not the one that wants Marner gone or have you flip flopped again?

You're either have trouble understanding what you're reading, or you're trying to stir up shit for no reason - I never said I "want Marner gone".

You're the one who wanted me to start a discussion in the trade forum. You want a discussion, start it yourself.

The Marner talk I don’t think anyone is basing this only on just game 3 but over the 7 years in the playoffs where he has struggled at important times.

I think the pressure of playing in Toronto and the past gets to Marner.

Exactly.

 

[666]

You're either have trouble understanding what you're reading, or you're trying to stir up shit for no reason - I never said I "want Marner gone".

You're the one who wanted me to start a discussion in the trade forum. You want a discussion, start it yourself.

Sounds like we are in agreement. We both want to keep Marner and re-sign him as soon as possible.

 

[Stephen]

Everyone's complaining about JT and how we shouldn't have signed him as we should have known he'd be declining and so on. So I guess we should be worrying about signing M&M as well as they'll be around the same age as JT was when their new contracts kick in. If signing JT has "doomed" this franchise until that contract ends, what does resigning both M&M do? Is there such a thing as doubledoom?

No doubt you’re trying to make some kind of point here, but the reality is that any kind of extension on any 27-28 year old superstar in the NHL will carry some kind of decline risk in the price tag. The rules of aging will apply to Matthews and Marner on some level and won’t be known until you know.

 

[Thornbury]

Well I think so too, but since we've already established these guys will chase every last dollar, I don't think it's crazy to think that some team will knock his socks off with an offer like that. Don't forget that the Leafs don't have to only match an offer for it to make after-tax sense for the player, they need to offer as much as 30% more than some teams that reside in states without state tax.

But how about Canadian players who live in Canada in the off season, who get paid in US dollars. That's a 30% premium for them, to offset the higher tax rate.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sounds like we are in agreement. We both want to keep Marner and re-sign him as soon as possible.

Sounds more like your reading comprehension issues are unresolved.

No doubt you’re trying to make some kind of point here, but the reality is that any kind of extension on any 27-28 year old superstar in the NHL will carry some kind of decline risk in the price tag. The rules of aging will apply to Matthews and Marner on some level and won’t be known until you know.

I think some effort should be put into predicting how much decline there will be before signing guys to pricey long term deals.

When Dubas opened up the vault, I started thinking about this. The people who were justifying Marner's contract for example were arguing that players reach their prime earlier, that these were prime years so they're worth a lot and so on. So what happens when it comes time to resign them when they are about to become UFA's? I doubt the players will be willing to sign for less because their prime years are almost over and they're about to start declining.

Basically Dubas agreed to pay Marner top dollar for most of his career, instead of getting him cheaper for a number of years, big mistake in my opinion.

 

[seventieslord]

But how about Canadian players who live in Canada in the off season, who get paid in US dollars. That's a 30% premium for them, to offset the higher tax rate.

How do you figure? You think they can buy 30% more stuff in Canada with the same amount of American dollars everyone else has? Don't think that's how it works.

 

[666]

Sounds more like your reading comprehension issues are unresolved.

Why don't you just tell us what you think that the Leafs should so with Marner then. I think they should re-sign him as soon as possible (next summer I believe) and make him a Leaf for life and end up in the HOF. What do you think?

 

[The Apologist]

Yeah, there's nothing new here.

The "depending on the return" BS is nonsense. I would challenge you to try to come up with a reasonable Marner trade that would make the Leafs better in the big 4 window and post it on the Trades forum. You don't blame one guy for the teams issues and you never trade a Marner away.

I disagree. If a Seguin or an Eichel can be traded a Marner certainly can.

Finding similar value would be near impossible but it's not always about similar value, it's always about improving your team.

 

[666]

I disagree. If a Seguin or an Eichel can be traded a Marner certainly can.

Finding similar value would be near impossible but it's not always about similar value, it's always about improving your team.

Marner can easily be traded and would return a lot but the return isn't likely to make us better now. There are very few players in the entire league that would make us better now and the ones that are aren't available. Now if you want to blow it up and try to compete again in 5 years then you have many options.

 

[seventieslord]

Marner can easily be traded and would return a lot but the return isn't likely to make us better now. There are very few players in the entire league that would make us better now and the ones that are aren't available. Now if you want to blow it up and try to compete again in 5 years then you have many options.

Depends what you mean by better.

If marner gets traded for futures plus some $4M forward with some jam, and we use the other $7M in cap space to get a #1 defenseman, couldn't the team be better?

 

[666]

Depends what you mean by better.

If marner gets traded for futures plus some $4M forward with some jam, and we use the other $7M in cap space to get a #1 defenseman, couldn't the team be better?

I don't know where you get a $7M #1D. We pay Rielly more than that.
A $4M forward is what Bunting will probably get.

Here's a Marner thread posted on the Trade board a couple of days ago:

Value of: - Marner

What's your best offer for Marner?

forums.hfboards.com

Now I'm not saying that the Trade board is accurate but you can check out that shit show and get a feel for things.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Why don't you just tell us what you think that the Leafs should so with Marner then. I think they should re-sign him as soon as possible (next summer I believe) and make him a Leaf for life and end up in the HOF. What do you think?

I think it's an interesting question and there are many things to consider. I don't think you're interested in honest discussion though, all too often you attribute statements to me that I've never said, twist my around and etc. I've answered many of your questions today but I think I've had enough for now. If you want to discuss things with me in the future, I suggest you try being a bit more respectful. If you have no respect for me whatsoever that's fine, but following me around and harassing me is nothing but a waste of time for both of us.

I disagree. If a Seguin or an Eichel can be traded a Marner certainly can.

Finding similar value would be near impossible but it's not always about similar value, it's always about improving your team.

Exactly!

 

[666]

If you want to discuss things with me in the future, I suggest you try being a bit more respectful.

You're given the respect that you deserve. You can't answer simple questions and you're constantly flip flopping and getting emotional. My guess is that you bet on the Leafs.

You'll be back worshiping Marner soon enough.

Just remember, 4 games ago you created the eating crow post praising Marner's playoffs. Three games later you were hating and emotional and today you compared player evaluation to the daily fluctuation of the stock market and are whining about respect. This is not normal.

If you can't keep from getting all emotional when talking with me then block me. Problem solved.

 

[Stephen]

I disagree. If a Seguin or an Eichel can be traded a Marner certainly can.

Finding similar value would be near impossible but it's not always about similar value, it's always about improving your team.

A Marner can definitely be traded like those two players mentioned. The return is obviously important but it also doesn’t have to be superstar for a greater superstar. You can get valuable pieces by committee that give you a different look, picks and cap flexibility all at the same time and if those tools are used properly it can be positive.

Of course the greatest chance of success is to avoid a panic sell.

 

[WillyC]

Just a reminder… if Mitch Marner is a big factor in winning the next 3 games… he’s still in the running for the Conn Smythe.

 

[thewave]

A Marner can definitely be traded like those two players mentioned. The return is obviously important but it also doesn’t have to be superstar for a greater superstar. You can get valuable pieces by committee that give you a different look, picks and cap flexibility all at the same time and if those tools are used properly it can be positive.

Of course the greatest chance of success is to avoid a panic sell.

The current cap structure is pretty much all about impact per dollar spent. Marner is not getting you 11m impact as is, that's for sure. I'd say we are getting about 7-8m from Marner and about 9-10m from AM. JT is giving about 6-7m and Nylander probably the only one punching above his weight at about 8-9m

 

[Gary Nylund]

You're given the respect that you deserve. You can't answer simple questions and you're constantly flip flopping and getting emotional. My guess is that you bet on the Leafs.

You'll be back worshiping Marner soon enough.

Just remember, 4 games ago you created the eating crow post praising Marner's playoffs. Three games later you were hating and emotional and today you compared player evaluation to the daily fluctuation of the stock market and are whining about respect. This is not normal.

If you can't keep from getting all emotional when talking with me then block me. Problem solved.

It seems that you don't understand the meaning of the following:
flip flop
emotional
worshiping
hating
whining
normal

You're mildly amusing.

BTW, you've made a number of posts in the past that were so rude that they were removed by the mods. I suggest you try harder to not let your emotions get the best of you.

Just a reminder… if Mitch Marner is a big factor in winning the next 3 games… he’s still in the running for the Conn Smythe.

Yup. Maybe we win the cup and Mitch wins the Conn Smythe or maybe he plays like crap tomorrow night and our season's over. Seems like there's at least one poster who thinks that doesn't matter because "player values don't fluctuate like the stock market". Smh.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The current cap structure is pretty much all about impact per dollar spent. Marner is not getting you 11m impact as is, that's for sure. I'd say we are getting about 7-8m from Marner and about 9-10m from AM. JT is giving about 6-7m and Nylander probably the only one punching above his weight at about 8-9m

I think your value for JT is high, but otherwise those are the same numbers I posted elsewhere.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Why don't you just tell us what you think that the Leafs should so with Marner then. I think they should re-sign him as soon as possible (next summer I believe) and make him a Leaf for life and end up in the HOF. What do you think?

Paul, is that you?

 

[Maple Leaf]

It is because he believes in the core of the team famous last words

 

[nuck]

I disagree. If a Seguin or an Eichel can be traded a Marner certainly can.

Finding similar value would be near impossible but it's not always about similar value, it's always about improving your team.

True. A "home town boy" has a mystique to fans but the club doesn't need that bit to fill the arena and its not like he took a discount to play in TO. In terms of winning the Leafs extreme top heavy lineup hasn't worked yet and of the clubs who made it to the second round only Edmonton resembles that approach. If you got the right $7M player back and did something smart with the other $4M in space the team will be just fine, plus the $7M guy obviously isn't all they would get. I had kind of assumed Willie would be the one to go because his contract is first up but I guess they don't have to wait until Mitch is re-signable if WN comes in at a better deal than expected..

No matter who you talk about trading there will always be fans who desperately want their guy to stay. I guess I am that way with Matthews because I remember the bleak years without a #1C after Sittler and seeing them try to fill the spot more recently with Bozak and a young Kadri. I will say that scoring wingers are the easiest high value position to fill almost any year so as long as AM doesn't want $14M per he is the untouchable one to me. As to Mitch or Willie, their market value and expected cost to re-sign should hopefully may it easy to decide who stays. One thing I cannot get down for is "we just need to get to the end of the JT deal and we can handle all three" so we keep dumpster diving to fill out the bottom 6 and 3rd pairing. If they aren't getting you to the SCF why struggle to keep the band together?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Habs fan here with a genuine question. Do you think there’s pressure to make a big change if you lose given some of the big 4 is UFA in a year? Is there fear of losing them?

 

[ToneDog]

Habs fan here with a genuine question. Do you think there’s pressure to make a big change if you lose given some of the big 4 is UFA in a year? Is there fear of losing them?

Some will answer yes and yes while some will say no and no.

Most think Nylander will be the fall guy if they lose to Florida. Matthews could be on the block if he hints that we wants to leave July 1, 2024.

 

[stealth1]

The point is, since it whooshed past you, is that great players often have bad games or even bad weeks. Get over it.

The difference is McDavid and Draisaitl have led the way for the majority of the playoffs. Game 3 was really their only bad game. Game 3 of this series was just another reminder of that this core doesn't have what it takes when their backs are against the wall.