The Core Has To Go

[Bourne Endeavor]

Not really, pretty weird take.
They were asked two totally different questions.

For me it was less the questions and more Marner being dismissive while Leon focusing more on the team. To be fair, the interview with Leon is a lot more than just that question.

 

[leafs in five]

Mitch Marner after being asked about his performance in game 3 and the criticism levied at him and the team:

"We don't care what you guys say, we don't listen to you guys outside of this locker room. We're just focused on ourselves."

Leon Draisaitl after losing game 1 despite scoring four goals and being asked if he took some personal enjoyment out of that:

"No. Nope. We lost."

Says a lot, doesn't it?

nope not really

 

[m1ker]

It’s going to be sad watching Nylander play his natural center position on another team

 

[Leafsfan74]

I would empty to the bare walls. It's time to reinvent the Toronto Maples Leafs. They are getting dangerously close to people wanting a second GTA team. I am leaning that way, the organization is a zombie.

Toronto has wanted a second team for decades but the Leafs will just block it due to territory rights.

i'm sure people better appreciate now why so many held the 92-93 Leafs in such high esteem. The had only one line and all heart, came one game away from the Finals against the Habs. 30 Years later and they haven't come as close.

The problem is that the Clubhouse attitude/environment is never far away. The only way this would change is corporations stop sponsoring the team and that won't happen

If they pull of the miracle it would dramatically alter their reputation. Dubas did all he could this deadline. He will still get axed and he probably knows it.

If they make it 3-2 in the series they wll start to believe and the Panthers will start to really worry.

Good luck.

 

[horner]

There have been plenty tea leaves to be read on Matthew's pending UFA mindset for years now. He's been very careful not to mention how much he loves playing here, or wanting to be a Leaf for life. The usual tropes from star players looking for a new contract with their current team - you just don't get anything of that from him.

My theory, while wild, is that he's been pulling up this year - I personally don't believe he is happy to be in Toronto (the City) not the organization. As someone who has lived and loves the LA life (and not even as a filthy rich 20-something) I can fully understand why he'd prefer to be elsewhere and I bet heavy that's where he'll ultimately end up.

Folks - he's American with Mexican roots. He played his junior years in Switzerland rather than in Canada where the undisputed best programs exist for young hockey talent. That alone should have raised some eyebrows that this cat is different.

Leafs legacy is about all I can see as a draw to stay here, for someone like him.

Time will tell.

He played in Switzerland for money.
He would have learned how to play hockey in junior.
He wasn't prepared to be in the NHL chl hit and toughen you up .
He probably never was hit in the swiz league.
Marner on the other hand was.

 

[myleafs]

So shot attempts, slot shots, scoring chances and expected goals are all up over the first series, and all but scoring chances are up over the regular season.

The only thing that's actually down is actual goals.

Was watching the sdp and they were talking about how these stats are made and for example last game it said that Marner had no giveaways which is totally wrong and there were other examples of things that were wrong so the idea is if the way stats are noted is wrong then the whole winometer etc is wrong

Is it the pressure of this market?

Is it partly the way society raises its children today, I mean there isn't one guy on the team under 26 that has any real snarl in their game. That includes most of the fanbase especially the ones that freaked out about Kadri taking care of business, because no one else would.

Is it the touchy feely nonsense that surrounds the team that doesn't allow them to let the animal out?

I have no idea what the answers are, would they respond to a guy like Keenan who wanted all players to be killers?

LOL I would pay to watch that....

 

[myleafs]

Toronto has wanted a second team for decades but the Leafs will just block it due to territory rights.

i'm sure people better appreciate now why so many held the 92-93 Leafs in such high esteem. The had only one line and all heart, came one game away from the Finals against the Habs. 30 Years later and they haven't come as close.

The problem is that the Clubhouse attitude/environment is never far away. The only way this would change is corporations stop sponsoring the team and that won't happen

If they pull of the miracle it would dramatically alter their reputation. Dubas did all he could this deadline. He will still get axed and he probably knows it.

If they make it 3-2 in the series they wll start to believe and the Panthers will start to really worry.

Good luck.

maybe we should just so what Seattle has done...taken a bunch of mid tier players...guys who are scrapping to stay in the nhl and build from there and if you can land a star with some jam you do but not unless they have that go to war for your linemates mentality.

 

[myleafs]

He played in Switzerland for money.
He would have learned how to play hockey in junior.
He wasn't prepared to be in the NHL chl hit and toughen you up .
He probably never was hit in the swiz league.
Marner on the other hand was.

Kyper was asking if anyone has ever taught Matthews how to hit

 

[horner]

Kyper was asking if anyone has ever taught Matthews how to hit

Yep same with Nylander and Marner
It's almost like the 3 of them are still in junior.

 

[pcruz]

It's inexplicable to me at this point. I just can't figure it out.

I remember somebody on one of the Leafs podcasts saying you can't just tape grit onto the hockey team with depth acquisitions, it has to come from your core guys.

And there's maybe some truth to that. Marner, Nylander, and Matthews, and to some extent Tavares, are all extremely talented, but there's something missing in each of them. It's fine to have one or two guys like that, but our "core" all seem to share a common trait of not playing their best hockey when the moment calls on them. Call it nerves, call it a lack of killer instinct, whatever it is, it's a problem.

Then you look across the ice at the Florida Panthers, who won the president's trophy last year (great regular season) only to get schooled by the Lightning in the second round. They immediately move out a skill guy in Huberdeau, pick up a jar of piss and vinegar in Tkachuk, and look like a worse regular season team and a better playoff team. They changed their identity and found a guy who wants to play in big games. And you can see how it rubs off on guys like Duclair and Reinhart.

Pieces of this core may be fine, but collectively, they're somehow less than the sum of their parts.

Again, Leafs fans with the memory ND attention span of a squirrel.

Tkachuk is a bona-fide performer with piss and vinegar.

Maybe someone should ask Calgary Flames fans what their opinion of his playoffs last year was.

Tkachuk, the piss and vinegar forward, has a total of 8 more hits than the big softie Matthews, in 1 extra game played.

Tkachuk has doubled his playoff scoring record these playoffs alone.

He's been in the league for what, 6 or 7 years now.


Some of the takes are just completely devoid of truth or logic that they are absolute gibberish.

People out here forgetting that Matthews, Marner and Nylander, as rookies, took a team that ended the season dead last into the playoffs and then went 6 games against the team who would go on to winning the Cup the following year. Essentially the same team.

Do you guys see the other superstar players dragging their last placed teams to the playoffs in their rookie seasons?

How many times did Edmonton miss the playoffs since they drafted McDavid, years after drafting Draisaitl and 3 straight 1st overall players?

It's like I've said previously, this fanbase has been so spoiled (somehow, I'm not even sure how) that they firmly believe all other teams are shit and Toronto should just coast to a Cup win every year.

You people sound like English football fans. Devoid of reason.

Enjoy what you have.

Criticize the effort, always when it's below expectations.
Criticize the team's performance when they don't win.

But stop swinging from "The Leafs and Oilers are favourites to play for the cup" to "fire everyone and trade all the players, sell the team to an owner who cares, etc".

It's pathetic and immature.


Be better than that.

 

[Menzinger]

A guy like Matthews can’t have a “pull up” gear without real reputational damage. You can’t go Vince Carter in this sport, go chase glory somewhere else without that long shadow hanging over your career. The best case scenario is it’s a down year. He recommits and a revamped program gets him back on track to that 1st overall to cup storyline.

Yep. Of the core Matthews is the one with the biggest amount of reputational/career risk getting moved out, especially on bad terms.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

My worry is that they'll only trade Marner (or maybe even keep Marner and only trade Nylander).

Don't think that's enough, you have to actually move out multiple guys not just one or two and that possibly includes Matthews too especially if he doesn't sign an extension or something.

 

[Menzinger]

My worry is that they'll only trade Marner (or maybe even keep Marner and only trade Nylander).

Don't think that's enough, you have to actually move out multiple guys not just one or two and that possibly includes Matthews too especially if he doesn't sign an extension or something.

I think you can turn the core 4 into a core two in the long term. Matthews+ one of the wingers as long as those two players signed long term extensions at an acceptable cap hit.

Then they just ride Tavares' contract out for the next couple years.

 

[mjd1001]

maybe we should just so what Seattle has done...taken a bunch of mid tier players...guys who are scrapping to stay in the nhl and build from there and if you can land a star with some jam you do but not unless they have that go to war for your linemates mentality.

I'm not sure you go 100% in that direction, but there is a middle ground.

If this team loses this series, you pull the plug on the core. Trade 2 of them. Maybe 3. You aren't gettting 'expansion draft' player back for them though you are going to get better. And picks, and prospects.

I used Buffalo as an example when they traded Eichel. They got back Tuch (who scored over 30 goals this year and is one of the hardest forcheckers in the league). And a first rounder. And Krebs (the previous years first rounder). and a 2nd.

You should be able to get just as much for Marner, and possibly MORE for Matthews.

So Imagine this Leaf team without Matthews and Marner, but with MORE cape space to sign FA's right now. With 2-3 more first round picks to use (or deal). With a couple of very, VERY good players to replace them (maybe not as much talent on paper, but could be close to as effective on the ice). Think an Alex Tuch type forward and a D-man close to that level that can be a 20+ minute first or 2nd pair guy. Then with the money you save, or the picks you aquire, bring in a young, hard working guy who WANTS to be a maple leaf.

I don't think any of the above is impossible. And if the Leafs don't come back to win this series, doing the above might actually make a MORE likeable team next year to follow.

 

[TheShape]

Nylander being traded is a foregone conclusion, even though I don't agree with it. It's clear as day Marner needs to go too.

 

[pcruz]

It's inexplicable to me at this point. I just can't figure it out.

I remember somebody on one of the Leafs podcasts saying you can't just tape grit onto the hockey team with depth acquisitions, it has to come from your core guys.
...

He played in Switzerland for money.
He would have learned how to play hockey in junior.
He wasn't prepared to be in the NHL chl hit and toughen you up .
He probably never was hit in the swiz league.
Marner on the other hand was.

Kyper was asking if anyone has ever taught Matthews how to hit

Now we're listening to Kypreos as if he's some sort of authority?

What's next, Steve Simmons, Dave Feschuck and Damien Cox as well?


Let me put something into perspective for you all.

Over the course of the last 4 playoffs (the entirety of the last 4 playoffs), Matthews sits in 43rd amongst forwards for hits delivered.

95 hits in 28 games played. 39 blocked shots in that same period of time.

The player in 44th place for hits delivered?

McDavid with 93 hits in 33 games played, and a whopping 13 blocked shots.

How many players above them on this list with less than 30 games played?



Noel Acciari - 130
Marcus Foligno - 127
Paquette - 123
E. Kane - 112
Tanev - 103
Hathaway - 102
Aube-Kubel - 101
Helm - 98


Hell, noted softie Corey Perry has all of 3 more hits dished out than Matthews, in only 50 more games played.


Stop it with this narrative.

It's played out, it's lazy, and worst of all, it's not factual.

It's quite pathetic that people will continue to state something as fact when faced with proof of being wrong.

 

[The Management]

Again, Leafs fans with the memory ND attention span of a squirrel.

Tkachuk is a bona-fide performer with piss and vinegar.

Maybe someone should ask Calgary Flames fans what their opinion of his playoffs last year was.

Tkachuk, the piss and vinegar forward, has a total of 8 more hits than the big softie Matthews, in 1 extra game played.

Tkachuk has doubled his playoff scoring record these playoffs alone.

He's been in the league for what, 6 or 7 years now.


Some of the takes are just completely devoid of truth or logic that they are absolute gibberish.

People out here forgetting that Matthews, Marner and Nylander, as rookies, took a team that ended the season dead last into the playoffs and then went 6 games against the team who would go on to winning the Cup the following year. Essentially the same team.

Do you guys see the other superstar players dragging their last placed teams to the playoffs in their rookie seasons?

How many times did Edmonton miss the playoffs since they drafted McDavid, years after drafting Draisaitl and 3 straight 1st overall players?

It's like I've said previously, this fanbase has been so spoiled (somehow, I'm not even sure how) that they firmly believe all other teams are shit and Toronto should just coast to a Cup win every year.

You people sound like English football fans. Devoid of reason.

Enjoy what you have.

Criticize the effort, always when it's below expectations.
Criticize the team's performance when they don't win.

But stop swinging from "The Leafs and Oilers are favourites to play for the cup" to "fire everyone and trade all the players, sell the team to an owner who cares, etc".

It's pathetic and immature.


Be better than that.

Wow. This is quite the rant in response to my post, and one that resorts to ad hominem attacks and insults in substitution of actually making an intelligible point.

I've been a fan of this team since I was a kid, and I've stuck by them through a lot of good and a lot of terrible hockey. I was patient during the rebuild and I've always taken the view that it's tough to build a winner and it's even tougher to actually win. I'm usually pretty positive. So before you go rambling on, making assumptions about other fans who you know nothing about, consider that we've all put in our licks along the way and we all have a right to express disappointment.

I started my post by saying I don't have the answers. I didn't suggest firing everyone in the front office or trading everyone in the core. My criticism is that for reasons I cannot understand, some of these guys don't put it in that extra gear when it is needed. I don't think that's a particularly controversial opinion.

Babbling on about people being entitled, spoiled, pathetic, immature, devoid of reason... what a sanctimonious load of bunk.

 

[Stephen]

Yep. Of the core Matthews is the one with the biggest amount of reputational/career risk getting moved out, especially on bad terms.

Right. It’s literally his program.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I swear the Leafs' motto is "Cleared but not out".

 

[ULF_55]

Woll part of the core?

 

[WillyC]

This thread could go either way for the folks who’ve invested their time in how they would break up the core in trading Matthews, Marner, or Nylander… better hope Woll doesn’t win the next 3 games and go to the Conference Finals.

 

[pcruz]

Woll part of the core?

Woll is a future top end goalie.

Injuries are the only reason we even went for Murray.
He should have been vying for back-up minutes last year, but was injured.

 

[Bomber0104]

Woll part of the core?

At his salary, why not?

Virtually no downside as a 2nd/3rd option.

 

[Cowumbus]

As an outsider I don’t see why you would break up the core at all. Marner Matthews Nylander need to stay.

 

[pcruz]

Wow. This is quite the rant in response to my post, and one that resorts to ad hominem attacks and insults in substitution of actually making an intelligible point.

I've been a fan of this team since I was a kid, and I've stuck by them through a lot of good and a lot of terrible hockey. I was patient during the rebuild and I've always taken the view that it's tough to build a winner and it's even tougher to actually win. I'm usually pretty positive. So before you go rambling on, making assumptions about other fans who you know nothing about, consider that we've all put in our licks along the way and we all have a right to express disappointment.

I started my post by saying I don't have the answers. I didn't suggest firing everyone in the front office or trading everyone in the core. My criticism is that for reasons I cannot understand, some of these guys don't put it in that extra gear when it is needed. I don't think that's a particularly controversial opinion.

Babbling on about people being entitled, spoiled, pathetic, immature, devoid of reason... what a sanctimonious load of bunk.

Call it sanctimonious if you want, but I bet you're too young to remember the Sundin shit on the radio and the newspapers.

The "fans" of this franchise are always so reactionarily vocal and clamour for changes whenever they don't like something.
And then, immediately after the changes are made, they lament that the players they would "kill for" aren't around.

Well, they're very often the players the "fans" wanted to get rid of.

And then they have the gall to get upset when people tell them to step back and appreciate what they have.

I wonder how great it must be for Sabres fans, or Canucks, or Senators, or Islanders.

Teams that after having really rough periods of time look to be on the way up only to crash and burn again and again.

Toronto bottomed out for all of 2 years and haven't missed a playoff since.

One of the players they won with that is the reigning Hart+Lindsay winner and 2 time Rocket Richard.
One of the player they won with that is 3 time 94+ points and top 3 for the Selke this year.


And people here want to give them away?

Stupid!