The Case for Tyler Bozak: All Tyler Bozak Discussion Here

[The Winter Soldier]

Precisely my point about cherry-picking stats. Literally a few posts ago in this thread you dismissively invite me to "post all the Corsi stats want", and now you come back with faceoff percentage?

They aren't important? What cherry picking are you referring to. They are a direct correlation to winning cups and successful teams.

If not prove this wrong. You are free to post your sample of Cup winners, I bet you will find the majority of winning teams were successful on the dot.

Go ahead, do some work, look it up.

 

[leafs in five]

They are a direct correlation to winning cups

can't argue with the facts, nice one

 

[King85Kong]

Uhh yeah no, doesn't work like that.

I already posted the previous playoff FO% numbers, and in the last 3 years, there's been 2 centers who have been top 10 in faceoffs those playoffs. Once again, faceoffs are not NEARLY as important as you are trying to make them out to be. Correlation does not equal causation.

I've also seen you trying to refute Corsi in the past when it starts going against your agenda, guess what else those 3 teams have in common??? You'll grasp at anything with remote relevance to support your agenda.

Faceoffs are overrated for the most part. Does it help, sure, but there not series deciders, like some claim them to be. If you win the faceoff, then do nothing with it and turn it over, then the faceoff win was meaningless. If you lose the draw but get it back and proceed to control the play, even better. Being good with the puck is more important.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Uhh yeah no, doesn't work like that.

I already posted the previous playoff FO% numbers, and in the last 3 years, there's been 2 centers who have been top 10 in faceoffs those playoffs. Once again, faceoffs are not NEARLY as important as you are trying to make them out to be. Correlation does not equal causation.

I've also seen you trying to refute Corsi in the past when it starts going against your agenda, guess what else those 3 teams have in common??? You'll grasp at anything with remote relevance to support your agenda.

Yes it does, these are factual stats of cup winning Centers seasonal face off %, they are very accurate and it is based on a large sample of draws the season they won the cup.

You cannot disprove the value of faceoffs.

Further what are you trying to say here, faceoffs is not an important function for Centers? Obcourse they are. You know this, we all know this. Give it up.

 

[King85Kong]

2012 playoffs:Travis Zajac 54.2 15th in league Adam Henrique 43.6 37th in league, LAK centers: Kopitar 48.6 on faceoffs 29th on league, Jarret Stoll (who's definitely not one of LA's best players) was 21st in the league at 51.8

2013 playoffs: Toews with 53.1 and Handuz with 46.4, 17th and 37th in the league, Bergeron 1st in the league with 61.5% (Alas career faceoff god tops the list, shocker), Krecji was 39th with 45.2%.

2014 playoffs: Jarret Stoll (Maybe he is one of LA's top players ) with 8th int he league at 56.7 and Kopitar 19th with 53.7%. For the NYR: top player in the league Dominic Moore led faceoffs for them at 54.5% good for 13th in the league, their top line center was 42.2% on draws (Stepan).

So teams that are historically cup winners have their top guys winning faceoffs eh? The faceoff totals fluctuate greatly from year to year, and considering that there's usually only 45-50 centers in the playoffs, top 10 should be the deciding territory, there is only two examples of players from those cup teams being in the top 10, and Jarret Stoll isn't a top-6 center (like your argument said that top players win the faceoffs). Completely refuted. It's obvious what you're doing, you try and make faceoffs sound way more important and super-awesome than they actually are just so you can buff up Bozak to be support your own agenda.

You try and get off saying that Bozak had a better game than Kadri even though he did diddly squat and you try and justify it by bringing with faceoffs and zone starts even though Kadri was clearly better. Do you realize how incredibly weak these arguments are? No matter how many times your arguments get refuted and beaten you always come back with the same stuff.

To me, it looks like faceoffs don't have nearly the impact on series that you're trying to make it sound like. You don't need to be good at faceoffs to be a top center, I've debunked that several times now.

On topic, do you really think Bozak had the better game? He isn't even half of the player that you always try and make him out to be, no matter how much you want to believe it. .

Great post, and shows their actual playoff faceoff numbers. Guess faceoffs don't decide series. Lucky for those teams.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Faceoffs are overrated for the most part. Does it help, sure, but there not series deciders, like some claim them to be. If you win the faceoff, then do nothing with it and turn it over, then the faceoff win was meaningless. If you lose the draw but get it back and proceed to control the play, even better. Being good with the puck is more important.

How do you have possession when your Center or Centers lose draws? You keep harping on the importance of CF%. Then your statement of Faceoffs being overrated is quite hypocritical isn't it? If you lose the faceoff, you lose possession.

Further, You are on the PP, you lose the draw, how does this help the PP? Want to answer that, that's 20 secs killed already on the PP without even touching the puck.

 

[Purity*]

Yes it does, these are factual stats of cup winning Centers seasonal face off %, they are very accurate and it is based on a large sample of draws the season they won the cup.

You cannot disprove the value of faceoffs.

Further what are you trying to say here, faceoffs is not an important function for Centers? Obcourse they are. You know this, we all know this. Give it up.

I already have. They aren't nearly as important as you try and make them out to be. This is a broken record.

Nor did I say that faceoffs aren't an important function of centers, that is a strawman (just so you know since you've been throwing that fallacy around erratically and incorrectly nowadays). Are they as important as you're trying to make them out to be? NOPE. It's you vs the world right now.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I already have. They aren't nearly as important as you try and make them out to be. This is a broken record.

Nor did I say that faceoffs aren't an important function of centers, that is a strawman (just so you know since you've been throwing that fallacy around erratically and incorrectly nowadays). Are they as important as you're trying to make them out to be? NOPE. It's you vs the world right now.

Look at the Cup winners I posted. And when you claim they are not again, look again.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Leafs rely on a defensive system when protecting the lead that creates incredibly flawed corsi stats. They allow perimeter, low-potential shots that have the effect of boosting corsi for the opposing team despite not actually creating significant risk of being scored on.

Corsi doesn't differentiate between shots from inside the blue paint and shots from centre ice. They're all the same "possession" markers.

I don't want to open the floor to debate the system but I will say I don't agree that Bozak was "outshot" 2:1 in the sense you're trying to portray.

He did his job defensively, relied on a system the coach instituted which the coach believes will win games despite having bad fancy stats, and against the Hawks it worked.

Not sure how this would mean he played poorly.

And against Boston in the playoffs when it mattered most it clearly didn't. Any shot can be dangerous regardless of where it's taken, one small tip and the puck goes into the net. Not to mention how tiring it must be defending like that. Bozak gets beaten to loose pucks and loses board battles far to often, if he was better at it we'd be able to clear the zone much easier.

Bozak is used against the top lines because Randy won't trust the line that's been consistently the best at maintaining possession this season, the Santa line for whatever reason, granted he did have that line out in the last min.

 

[Purity*]

Look at the Cup winners I posted. And when you claim they are not again, look again.

Yup. You posted them with zero context whatsoever. Thankfully I posted the context in the previous post and it turns out it didn't apply whatsoever. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

They aren't important? What cherry picking are you referring to. They are a direct correlation to winning cups and successful teams.

It's cherry-picking because you only showed their faceoff stats for one season when some of them have been up and down over their career in that regard (Handzus 55% in 2012-13, but 49.6 in 2013-14, etc.), and because you were selective about whose stats you posted to begin with (Andrew Shaw was 43.3% on the draw last season, funny you wouldn't mention that).

Can you demonstrate how faceoffs were a significant determining factor in their playoff success? If not, then you may as well be calling for the Leafs to switch to black jerseys because LA won a Cup wearing them. Anybody can sit there and draw correlations. Watch: Malkin was 42.4% on the draw the year the Penguins won the Cup and he took home the Conn Smythe. Jordan Staal was 47.0%. So what?

What exactly is your point re: faceoffs anyway? That Bozak is a 'championship player' because he's good at faceoffs and Kadri isn't?

 

[Menzinger]

I'd never say faceoffs absolutely didn't matter, but aren't anywhere near as important as zone exists/entries - what matters is, after that faceoff, can you keep the puck in or get it out.

 

[King85Kong]

How do you have possession when your Center or Centers lose draws? You keep harping on the importance of CF%. Then your statement of Faceoffs being overrated is quite hypocritical isn't it? If you lose the faceoff, you lose possession.

Further, You are on the PP, you lose the draw, how does this help the PP? Want to answer that, that's 20 secs killed already on the PP without even touching the puck.

Like I said, are faceoffs important, sure, but are they series deciders, no. The quote below shows this, with factual playoff faceoff numbers.
I would personally take a center who is a little weaker on the draw, but great with the puck and better at generating offense, then another center who is a little better on the draw, but weaker with the puck and doesn't create as much offense.

Wrong post quoted. Proper quote below.

 

[King85Kong]

This was the quote that clearly shows it.

2012 playoffs:Travis Zajac 54.2 15th in league Adam Henrique 43.6 37th in league, LAK centers: Kopitar 48.6 on faceoffs 29th on league, Jarret Stoll (who's definitely not one of LA's best players) was 21st in the league at 51.8

2013 playoffs: Toews with 53.1 and Handuz with 46.4, 17th and 37th in the league, Bergeron 1st in the league with 61.5% (Alas career faceoff god tops the list, shocker), Krecji was 39th with 45.2%.

2014 playoffs: Jarret Stoll (Maybe he is one of LA's top players ) with 8th int he league at 56.7 and Kopitar 19th with 53.7%. For the NYR: top player in the league Dominic Moore led faceoffs for them at 54.5% good for 13th in the league, their top line center was 42.2% on draws (Stepan).

So teams that are historically cup winners have their top guys winning faceoffs eh? The faceoff totals fluctuate greatly from year to year, and considering that there's usually only 45-50 centers in the playoffs, top 10 should be the deciding territory, there is only two examples of players from those cup teams being in the top 10, and Jarret Stoll isn't a top-6 center (like your argument said that top players win the faceoffs). Completely refuted. It's obvious what you're doing, you try and make faceoffs sound way more important and super-awesome than they actually are just so you can buff up Bozak to be support your own agenda.

You try and get off saying that Bozak had a better game than Kadri even though he did diddly squat and you try and justify it by bringing with faceoffs and zone starts even though Kadri was clearly better. Do you realize how incredibly weak these arguments are? No matter how many times your arguments get refuted and beaten you always come back with the same stuff.

To me, it looks like faceoffs don't have nearly the impact on series that you're trying to make it sound like. You don't need to be good at faceoffs to be a top center, I've debunked that several times now.

On topic, do you really think Bozak had the better game? He isn't even half of the player that you always try and make him out to be, no matter how much you want to believe it. .

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Tyler Bozak career Faceoff stats, Fits in well with past Cup winning Centers.

Hockey facts.

Rookie Year 55.2%
Sophomore year 54.6%
3rd Year 52.7%
4th Year 52.6%
5th year 48.7%
6th year 53.6%

 

[leafers]

Tyler Bozak career Faceoff stats, Fits in well with past Cup winning Centers.

Hockey facts.

Rookie Year 55.2%
Sophomore year 54.6%
3rd Year 52.7%
4th Year 52.6%
5th year 48.7%
6th year 53.6%

Does his corsi numbers also fit in with past cup winning teams?

 

[King85Kong]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't drink it for them
There's more to being a center then just faceoffs.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

If only we kept Dave Steckel, Jerred Smithson and Mike Zigomanis to play behind the almighty Bozak. We'd be the Kings of the East right now.

 

[Purity*]

If only we kept Dave Steckel, Jerred Smithson and Mike Zigomanis to play behind the almighty Bozak. We'd be the Kings of the East right now.

Antoine Vermette is hands down a top-10 center in the league this year.

 

[ECanuck]

Tyler Bozak career Faceoff stats, Fits in well with past Cup winning Centers.

Hockey facts.

Rookie Year 55.2%
Sophomore year 54.6%
3rd Year 52.7%
4th Year 52.6%
5th year 48.7%
6th year 53.6%

You might not notice it but now you have just turned into a comedian.

 

[mikebel111*]

You might not notice it but now you have just turned into a comedian.

hey, don't you know?

Whatever Bozak does well, those are needed on great teams, and whatever Bozak is poor at, those are not needed on great teams!

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

The topic of line matching was being discussed in the Kadri thread and while it's unpopular I can't seem to find any evidence that Bozak still isn't centering the top line aside from people saying Kessel is automatically the top line.

When I look at TOI for the two lines in the last 3 games Bozak line plays more minutes, even if you subract his extra power playtime and shorthanded time he's still playing roughly the same minutes as Kadri. I really don't see evidence that doesn't point to Bozak being the center Carlyle trusts and in his mind is currently slotted ahead of Kadri.

Buf
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
5:13 0:11 18:04 Bozak
4:51 1:30 19:02 JVR
3:26 0:11 18:06 Clarkson

3:26 0:00 17:36 Kadri
5:36 0:00 18:44 Kessel
0:00 1:28 13:07 Winnik

CBJ
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
1:15 0:55 20:46 Bozak
1:15 1:30 19:46 JVR
1:19 0:00 19:02 Clarkson

1:05 0:22 13:02 Kadri
1:01 0:00 12:39 Kessel
0:00 4:58 18:03 Winnik

Chi
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
2:35 1:03 20:45 Bozak
3:14 0:55 21:24 JVR
1:38 0:00 15:06 Clarkson

2:17 0:19 18:00 Kadri
2:35 0:00 19:39 Kessel
0:07 3:22 19:51 Winnik

*It looked a hell of a lot nicer when I wrote it out why did all the formatting vanish?*

 

[The Apologist]

The topic of line matching was being discussed in the Kadri thread and while it's unpopular I can't seem to find any evidence that Bozak still isn't centering the top line aside from people saying Kessel is automatically the top line.

When I look at TOI for the two lines in the last 3 games Bozak line plays more minutes, even if you subract his extra power playtime and shorthanded time he's still playing roughly the same minutes as Kadri. I really don't see evidence that doesn't point to Bozak being the center Carlyle trusts and in his mind is currently slotted ahead of Kadri.

Buf
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
5:13 0:11 18:04 Bozak
4:51 1:30 19:02 JVR
3:26 0:11 18:06 Clarkson

3:26 0:00 17:36 Kadri
5:36 0:00 18:44 Kessel
0:00 1:28 13:07 Winnik

CBJ
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
1:15 0:55 20:46 Bozak
1:15 1:30 19:46 JVR
1:19 0:00 19:02 Clarkson

1:05 0:22 13:02 Kadri
1:01 0:00 12:39 Kessel
0:00 4:58 18:03 Winnik

Chi
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
2:35 1:03 20:45 Bozak
3:14 0:55 21:24 JVR
1:38 0:00 15:06 Clarkson

2:17 0:19 18:00 Kadri
2:35 0:00 19:39 Kessel
0:07 3:22 19:51 Winnik

*It looked a hell of a lot nicer when I wrote it out why did all the formatting vanish?*

shhhhhhh, facts have no place here.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

The topic of line matching was being discussed in the Kadri thread and while it's unpopular I can't seem to find any evidence that Bozak still isn't centering the top line aside from people saying Kessel is automatically the top line.

When I look at TOI for the two lines in the last 3 games Bozak line plays more minutes, even if you subract his extra power playtime and shorthanded time he's still playing roughly the same minutes as Kadri. I really don't see evidence that doesn't point to Bozak being the center Carlyle trusts and in his mind is currently slotted ahead of Kadri.

Buf
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
5:13 0:11 18:04 Bozak
4:51 1:30 19:02 JVR
3:26 0:11 18:06 Clarkson

3:26 0:00 17:36 Kadri
5:36 0:00 18:44 Kessel
0:00 1:28 13:07 Winnik

CBJ
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
1:15 0:55 20:46 Bozak
1:15 1:30 19:46 JVR
1:19 0:00 19:02 Clarkson

1:05 0:22 13:02 Kadri
1:01 0:00 12:39 Kessel
0:00 4:58 18:03 Winnik

Chi
PP TOI SH TOI TOI Player
2:35 1:03 20:45 Bozak
3:14 0:55 21:24 JVR
1:38 0:00 15:06 Clarkson

2:17 0:19 18:00 Kadri
2:35 0:00 19:39 Kessel
0:07 3:22 19:51 Winnik

*It looked a hell of a lot nicer when I wrote it out why did all the formatting vanish?*

That has a lot to do with JVR IMO. He could end up becoming our most important forward. Seeing Clarkson on his line has made him a lot more motivated and is a lot more likely to drive plays on his own. In other words, he can be what Evander Kane was supposed to be but rather more of a playmaker-finisher ( vs PWF-finisher).

 

[Duke Silver]

How do you have possession when your Center or Centers lose draws? You keep harping on the importance of CF%. Then your statement of Faceoffs being overrated is quite hypocritical isn't it? If you lose the faceoff, you lose possession.

Then how can you explain Kadri having better possession numbers than Bozak despite losing all these additional faceoffs?