The Case For Bringing Back The Core

[Notsince67]

I hear that and maybe that might be part of it

But

And it's a big BUT

do you actually think if Nylanders job was to burn into the ozone on a ring around and crush the Dman on retrieval, he'd do it? He'd be able to do it? Matthews? Marner? Anybody? I'll guarantee all of them could as they're all strong guys, but because they wouldn't nobody else did

Cookie, Laffs, ZAR for sure but that was it, they weren't the teams' leaders though

you won't ever get the party going if you can't get anyone dancing.

You don't need everyone doing that all the time. Other than some cheap shots, you rarely see a Kucherov doing such things as an example.
But there is an issue about turning up the aggression a bit among the stars. Willy is big bodied but rarely ever finishes a check. You think it is defiance or there is something to coaching direction?

 

[Martin Skoula]

I just recently figured out Brendan Shanahan making $7M salary, well, how many your guys making quarter million yearly?

That’s a huge discount for everything he does for the team, we’re so lucky he decided to take such a team friendly amount.

 

[steam whistle]

That’s a huge discount for everything he does for the team, we’re so lucky he decided to take such a team friendly amount.

My point is if the president made $7 M/year, and GM is making way less salary, and often to be scapegoat, what the hell? I wasn't surprised Kyle wanna be the guy sitting on the throne.

 

[steam whistle]

That’s a huge discount for everything he does for the team, we’re so lucky he decided to take such a team friendly amount.

So true,,

 

[Gaberd2608]

My point is if the president made $7 M/year, and GM is making way less salary, and often to be scapegoat, what the hell? I wasn't surprised Kyle wanna be the guy sitting on the throne.

Who is Dubas to be asking for a multi million dollar deal. He has no experience or pedigree. He owes his career to Shanny. There is a fine line between being reasonable and being a pig. In a negotiation a person needs to know the person they are negotiating with. Dubas vs MSLE is not a battle Dubas is going to come out on top on.

Dubas will be just fine and will end up with anothet team eventually but none as lucrative or prestigious as Toronto imo

 

[Donnie740]

Who is Dubas to be asking for a multi million dollar deal. He has no experience or pedigree. He owes his career to Shanny. There is a fine line between being reasonable and being a pig. In a negotiation a person needs to know the person they are negotiating with. Dubas vs MSLE is not a battle Dubas is going to come out on top on.

Dubas will be just fine and will end up with anothet team eventually but none as lucrative or prestigious as Toronto imo

The incompetence of Dubas is going to get badly exposed if and when anyone hires him as a GM.

The unlimited resources of MLSE covered up a lot of his disastrous mismanagement.

Please Fenway Sports, PLEASE give Dubas the GM job in Pittsburgh.

 

[ToneDog]

The incompetence of Dubas is going to get badly exposed if and when anyone hires him as a GM.

The unlimited resources of MLSE covered up a lot of his disastrous mismanagement.

Please Fenway Sports, PLEASE give Dubas the GM job in Pittsburgh.

According to Rossi he might get Director of player OPs job.

 

[Donnie740]

According to Rossi he might get Director of player OPs job.

And then hire Bozo the Keefe to be his GM?

 

[ORRFForever]

The 4 will stay because :

1) You will never get what they are worth in a trade;
2) They need each other - especially Matthews and Marner;
3) No GM's gonna have the courage to break it up;
4) You don't get 4 players like this very often - you can't just throw them away;
5) In the back of everyone's mind, management / fans think "Maybe Next Year is the Year when We Catch Lightning In A Bottle and win the Cup".

The Leafs will sink or swim with this group - like it or not.

 

[ToneDog]

And then hire Bozo the Keefe to be his GM?

Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe Sullivan gets promoted to GM and they hire Keefe to coach. What could go wrong ??

The 4 will stay because :

1) You will never get what they are worth in a trade;
2) They need each other - especially Matthews and Marner;
3) No GM's gonna have the courage to break it up;
4) You don't get 4 players like this very often - you can't just throw them away;
5) In the back of everyone's mind, management / fans think "Maybe Next Year is the Year when We Catch Lightning In A Bottle and win the Cup".

The Leafs will sink or swim with this group - like it or not.

 

[therealkoho]

Crunch? trade 90+ point players for some people who score 50 points but have a few extra body checks. I don't care if they are the reincarnation of Darcy Tucker. I'll take the 60 goal scorer and 2x First Team All star.

Why on earth would I watch the Panthers vs Canes. Might be the worst ECF of all time.

Now I know you must be trolling

 

[therealkoho]

You don't need everyone doing that all the time. Other than some cheap shots, you rarely see a Kucherov doing such things as an example.
But there is an issue about turning up the aggression a bit among the stars. Willy is big bodied but rarely ever finishes a check. You think it is defiance or there is something to coaching direction?

No but you need the threat that it might happen, and the only way to make that threat work is having the Leafs practising it. Which they don't so there's no threat, and why everyone says that the Leafs are soft. The star gets punched in the face a few times but nobody jumps in to stick up for him, and it's happened more than once. Maybe that's what Eliote was saying about some really frank but rough exit interviews.

The 4 will stay because :

1) You will never get what they are worth in a trade;
2) They need each other - especially Matthews and Marner;
3) No GM's gonna have the courage to break it up;
4) You don't get 4 players like this very often - you can't just throw them away;
5) In the back of everyone's mind, management / fans think "Maybe Next Year is the Year when We Catch Lightning In A Bottle and win the Cup".

The Leafs will sink or swim with this group - like it or not.

Hmmm?

Not that it matters, but Tim Peel tweeted that the Leafs will never win as long as Matthews plays as soft as he usually does in the playoffs. Sure he's a disgraced referee of sorts for getting caught saying the silent part out loud, but I'm sure he knows a bit about the game and what it takes.

If you're not winning with that lineup, why are you icing that lineup?

Are the teams goals to finish in the money, yes and they should be, unless tanking of course.

So let's go back to the first bit why aren't you changing a winning lineup? What because you won't get a Matthews back, but what you might get back is a couple of talented pieces that can get you 20 goals apiece, and hit just enough to open up ice for other guys, hit enough that the other guys follow them into the breech. You might get some picks with which to draft the kind of players who aren't 5'8" but 6'2" and will do whatever it takes to win, and maybe win enough during the regular season to make the post season and turn it on to win it all.

So would they have still lost the trade?

 

[ORRFForever]

No but you need the threat that it might happen, and the only way to make that threat work is having the Leafs practising it. Which they don't so there's no threat, and why everyone says that the Leafs are soft. The star gets punched in the face a few times but nobody jumps in to stick up for him, and it's happened more than once. Maybe that's what Eliote was saying about some really frank but rough exit interviews.


Hmmm?

Not that it matters, but Tim Peel tweeted that the Leafs will never win as long as Matthews plays as soft as he usually does in the playoffs. Sure he's a disgraced referee of sorts for getting caught saying the silent part out loud, but I'm sure he knows a bit about the game and what it takes.

If you're not winning with that lineup, why are you icing that lineup?

Are the teams goals to finish in the money, yes and they should be, unless tanking of course.

So let's go back to the first bit why aren't you changing a winning lineup? What because you won't get a Matthews back, but what you might get back is a couple of talented pieces that can get you 20 goals apiece, and hit just enough to open up ice for other guys, hit enough that the other guys follow them into the breech. You might get some picks with which to draft the kind of players who aren't 5'8" but 6'2" and will do whatever it takes to win, and maybe win enough during the regular season to make the post season and turn it on to win it all.

So would they have still lose the trade?

With the current lineup, the Leafs are guaranteed to make the playoffs for the next half decade. Maybe they're not willing to risk that - even if they die in the early rounds of the playoffs.

 

[Boxscore]

The only case that could be made for bringing back the core is: regular season excitement.

There's a large enough sample size to realize this core, as constructed, does not have the heart, guts, versatility, and attitude necessary to win anything significant. They have proven that.

However, for 82 games this core is exciting, dramatic, entertaining and fun to root for. In terms of raw talent and pure skill, it's been decades since the Leafs had an offensive core capable of wowing us offensively. They just don't have another gear physically or mentally come playoffs.

It's also likely that any trade involving the core 4 would end up being a "loss" on paper and in terms of excitement. There's no way the Leafs could parlay a Matthews or Marner into a Draisaitl, Tkachuk, McDavid, MacKinnon, Pastrnak, Bedard, etc. So any deal they make would likely be a depth deal that returns better "team players for the playoffs." But those trades don't end up being sexy unless you win a Cup.

Those in charge of the team are likely subscribing to the "bird in hand" mindset. And this core, sans Tavares at this point, are so tantalizing that people can't help but wonder, "is this finally their year?"

 

[hockeywiz542]

Leafs’ best window to change Core Four is quickly closing. Will they be forced to run it back?

The Leafs are in more jeopardy than they’ve ever been, and closer than ever to not moving an inch, at their core. And a vacant GM job isn’t helping.

www.thestar.com

Except this year, can that possibly be what you want? Any Core Four trade would be difficult, under any circumstances. John Tavares has a full no-move and will use it. Any other star trade is by definition hard: getting equal value, working under a deadline, and trying to give this team more big-game offence by trading big-time offensive players. Oh, and the Leafs don’t have a general manager to do any of this, of course.

But you can’t bring these guys back, can you? The window is tight: on July 1 Matthews and Marner get no-move clauses, and William Nylander’s trade list is reduced to 10 teams of his choosing.

Except as reported by Chris Johnston, the Core Four came away from phone calls with Shanahan after the Dubas firing thinking none of them would be moved before July 1. Maybe that was simply to calm the waters. Maybe Shanahan, who still wanted Dubas back until Thursday of last week, wasn’t in a position to say anything else.

But combined with Shanahan’s proviso in his Friday press conference — when faced with Dubas’s previous statement that everything would be on the table, Shanahan cautioned that decisions might not happen on other people’s timelines — and it seems ever more likely Toronto misses their best window to change the Core Four.

Maybe it’s just not plausible, with no GM and the current chaos. But after July 1 Matthews could walk to free agency without a deal and under a new regime, Marner and Tavares could forestall any moves, and the Leafs might only be able to explore a Nylander deal. And that would be in the final year of his contract, meaning he holds the leverage even beyond those 10 teams on his list.

Unless you believe this Core Four deserves another chance, it sure looks like this franchise meltdown happened at the worst possible time. Florida reaching the final doesn’t help because of the way the Leafs lost — kept to the perimeter too often, victims of their own worst habits in Game 1, and maybe crumpling under accumulated pressure of this franchise. Some of that, of course, is self-inflicted.

So now the pressure is on Shanahan. Former Flames GM Jim Treliving is said to be the favourite, and maybe he is. That would mean experience, a man who has worked in a Canadian market, and replacing a GM who won one first-round series in five years with a GM who won two first-round series in nine years in Calgary, and had to trade away the guy who has helped propel the Panthers to the Stanley Cup final.

Maybe it will be another GM who has to hit the ground at high speed, with 10 free agents and a lame-duck coaching staff and big questions in the air. The Leafs as we knew them are both in more jeopardy than they have ever been, and may be closer than ever to not moving an inch, at their core. And it’s hard to feel great about it.

 

[Mess]

The best timing on changing up the core would be the entry draft, with the mostly likely player traded being Nylander.

The biggest boat anchor around the Leafs competitive neck is having 3 X $11 mil players on the same team.

With now Leafs former GM Dubas painting the organization into a corner with all his NMC and no trade clauses, its more than likely the core does remain in tact for next year, particularly without a GM at present. The more likely way the core 4 might be broke up is by Matthews or Nylander leaving via free agency after the next season.

That said once the Leafs have a real and qualified GM in place I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to find more playoff success building a better team to compete for the Cup, even with the constraints of a top heavy salary cap limitations.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Why are some people so stubborn about moving a core piece? Florida moved Hub and they are in the final. I don’t get it. Sure, let’s keep them all and be a one round and done team till they all age out.

 

[Boxscore]

Why are some people so stubborn about moving a core piece? Florida moved Hub and they are in the final. I don’t get it. Sure, let’s keep them all and be a one round and done team till they all age out.

Agreed, but they didn't move Huberdeau for Johnny Gaudreau, they completely changed the heart and soul of their team by adding a unicorn in Matthew Tkachuk. This would be the equivalent of the Leafs trading Nylander or Marner for Brady Tkachuk and that deal is simply not on the table.

If the Leafs make an identity-altering trade, the names coming back will not be as sexy as Matthew Tkachuk. We're likely looking at names such as JT Miller, Travis Konecny, Ivan Provorov, Jake DeBrusk, Troy Terry, or Elias Lindholm.

If the Leafs could have traded Mitch Marner for Matthew Tkachuk last summer they would likely be in the Cup Finals right now. The ultimate question is: would they have made that trade if given the chance? With Dubas at the helm, my guess is no.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Opinion | Why Brendan Shanahan still believes in the Maple Leafs core

The Leafs president has remained steadfast in his support for the Core Four while watching the atmosphere around them grow more turbulent each season.

www.thestar.com

If it seems like Brendan Shanahan has a belief in the Maple Leafs’ core that can withstand a ground-shaking event each spring, it’s because he does.

The Leafs president has remained steadfast in his support for the Core Four while watching the atmosphere around them grow more turbulent with each passing playoff opportunity that doesn’t result in a deep run. It fits his world view and aligns with his personal experience.

Shanahan was a No. 2 pick drafted into a 21-team league who didn’t win the Stanley Cup until his 10th season. He was part of teams that won just three playoff series in those first nine years.

When he finally broke through with the Detroit Red Wings in 1997, he did so alongside a captain in Steve Yzerman who had very nearly been traded to Ottawa the year before. Yzerman had been questioned and doubted plenty over his 14 seasons in Detroit to that point and went on to help bring three championships to the city with Shanahan.

That stands as a particularly instructive piece of history with the Leafs at an inflection point and Shanahan sitting atop their hockey operations pyramid. He has started interviewing potential replacements for Kyle Dubas, cut loose as general manager last Friday, but is believed to have reiterated his support to Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, John Tavares and William Nylander in phone calls made after the front-office shakeup.

As unusual as that sounds with the GM search just beginning and the Leafs still licking their wounds following a second-round loss to Florida, it actually speaks to Shanahan’s tunnel vision. During the increasingly rare times he has publicly addressed the state of the franchise, he has never shown any hint of second thought about the foundation his roster is built on.

.............

Just days before Dubas was fired as Leafs GM, he said: “I will consider anything with our group here that would allow us a better chance to win the Stanley Cup. I would take nothing off the table at all.”

While it remains to be seen how his successor views that equation, all indications suggest Shanahan is comfortable heading into next season with $40 million (U.S.) tied up in four forwards.

The fact the NHL’s salary cap stalled these past few years was particularly punitive to the Leafs because they had been counting on those deals becoming less onerous over time. And it certainly doesn’t help that they may get burned again with the cap expected to start making significant jumps as soon as 2024, which will almost certainly impact the amount Matthews, Nylander and Marner seek on extensions. They’re each approaching a third NHL contract and have just the one playoff series victory.

While there may be more external doubt than ever about their ability to get the job done together in Toronto, those players appear to have overwhelming support from the seat that matters most. Consider what else Shanahan said about the Core Four in his 2021 end-of-season availability: “We are going to do this here in Toronto with this group. There will be changes that will be made. There will be tweaks along the way. The team will evolve. The people will evolve. But we are going to get this done.”

 

[hockeywiz542]

Opinion | Seven Musings: Another reason why the Leafs should keep the Core Four? The Atlantic is aging

With Boston and Tampa Bay rapidly approaching their best-before date, the path out of the division could be different. Easier, quite possibly.

www.thestar.com

As new Maple Leafs general manager Brad Treliving decides what’s next for his team, he’ll have this to consider: The Atlantic Division is probably the toughest in hockey.

It has sent the Eastern Conference representative to the Stanley Cup final every year since 2019: Boston, Tampa, Tampa, Tampa, Florida.

(In one of those years, the weird COVID-shortened realigned 2020-21 season, it actually sent two, with a Montreal-Tampa final.)

It’s a tough division to get out of.

But is it changing? It’s worth considering that two playoff-hardened teams — Boston and Tampa — may be reaching their best-before date. For the Bruins, there’s no guarantee that 37-year-old Patrice Bergeron or 37-year-old David Krejci are coming back. They were both top five in Boston scoring. The Bruins are in danger — like the Penguins — of aging out of true contention.

Over in Tampa, it’s the salary cap that offers GM Julien Brisebois his biggest challenge. They have under $7 million in space, with two restricted free agents and five unrestricted, including Alex Killorn. In addition, Steve Stamkos is eligible to sign an extension this summer. They might not be able to squeeze the right support pieces around their aging core.

Meanwhile, if any of Buffalo, Detroit or Ottawa made a surge into a playoff spot or two, that would surprise precisely no one.

Imagine what that would do to the playoffs. It would be the Leafs and Panthers — whose cores are only in their mid-20s — who would be the playoff hardened teams, and, say Buffalo and Detroit in the happy-to-be-there mode and not knowing what will await them in the first round.

This would change the playoff dynamic a great deal.

It’s another argument to keep the Leafs core together. They’ll have no problem reaching the playoffs. They’ll probably face a new opponent with no playoff experience. Maybe two. The path out of the division would be — different for sure. Easier, quite possibly.

 

[Niagara Bill]

In order to be a core, you have to a leader when it counts.
Strangely M Reilly stepped up more than the 4, even JT with his age and speed limitations was more a leader than the other 3. Nylander played very good at times, the other 2 were mia.
Time to stop the core 4 bs. They are not musketeers, they do not have each other's backs, the teams back, or the fans back. 3 of the 4 are pure mercenaries.

 

[ORRFForever]

In order to be a core, you have to a leader when it counts.
Strangely M Reilly stepped up more than the 4, even JT with his age and speed limitations was more a leader than the other 3. Nylander played very good at times, the other 2 were mia.
Time to stop the core 4 bs. They are not musketeers, they do not have each other's backs, the teams back, or the fans back. 3 of the 4 are pure mercenaries.

I agree, 100%.

You'd think Matthews had won the Stanley Cup the way people are catering to him - he was invisible against Florida. Why are the Leafs sucking up to a player like that?

 

[MCR74]

Time to shake it up. The core has proven that they can't get it done. One more year won't make a difference.

 

[Tak7]

Why are some people so stubborn about moving a core piece? Florida moved Hub and they are in the final. I don’t get it. Sure, let’s keep them all and be a one round and done team till they all age out.

Last thing this team needs is change for the sake of change.

The only case for bringing the core back, should be because they exhausted all trade options and found that none of them actually improved the team.

But dumping 1 of them just for the sake of "change" doesn't actually make you better, and in fact is the sort of decision that teams almost always seem to regret.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Why are some people so stubborn about moving a core piece? Florida moved Hub and they are in the final. I don’t get it. Sure, let’s keep them all and be a one round and done team till they all age out.

I don't get it
It's the you'll never get a good return crowd or those so attached to a player, noone can even remotely criticize them.We had a GM who wouldn't even consider moving a core piece and look.where we are.
The core is soft and entitled. Out for individual success

Why are some people so stubborn about moving a core piece? Florida moved Hub and they are in the final. I don’t get it. Sure, let’s keep them all and be a one round and done team till they all age out.

I don't get it
It's the you'll never get a good return crowd or those so attached to a player, noone can even remotely criticize them.We had a GM who wouldn't even consider moving a core piece and look.where we are.
The core is soft and entitled. Out for individual success