The Bobby Orr Trophy (Why not?)

[snowkiddin]

Love it.

 

[snowkiddin]

Honestly, I don’t really see a point. I think it would make voters feel obligated to vote for different players for the Norris. Karlsson has clearly been the best offensive defenseman most years, but hasn’t he also been the best defenseman period?

Is the aim to never let the best offensive defenseman be considered the best all-around defenseman or to hand out 2 trophies to one guy?

I don't think Karlsson has been the best all around defensemen. If all there was too playing defense was scoring points, then yeah, sure, but there's more to D than that.

The best offensive defenseman can be the best all around defenseman, but if Karlsson is considered the best all around defenseman, I would beg to differ. He is definitely the top offensive defenseman though, IMO.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Sure why not.

It's nowhere near as ridiculous as Messier having a leadership trophy named after him.

 

[RickP]

I don't think Karlsson has been the best all around defensemen. If all there was too playing defense was scoring points, then yeah, sure, but there's more to D than that.

The best offensive defenseman can be the best all around defenseman, but if Karlsson is considered the best all around defenseman, I would beg to differ. He is definitely the top offensive defenseman though, IMO.

"best all around defenseman" is kinda tricky to define. There are offensive Dmen who are elite offensively and alright defensively, and there are defensive Dmen who are elite defensively and alright offensively. Which one is the most complete? That's kinda tough to say.

I guess at the end of the day, people vote (or should vote) for the Dman who has the biggest positive impact on the game.

 

[Scott Stevens]

Also, Bobby Orr wasn't just the highest scoring DMan, he was the best in the game.

This was what I wanted to say here, so thank you for saving me the time and effort. An offensive defenseman award named after Bobby Orr would be minimizing him and his all around greatness.

 

[neXis]

Yeah this isn't even your original idea. The idea of an Art-Ross like award for defenseman with the most points named after Orr has been discussed before.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/bobby-orr-trophy.2054941/

 

[Barnum]

Orr wasn't the best 2way defence man in the league.

Say what? Orr’s defense was a leg hair’s thickness less than his offense. He was simply the best defenseman on both sides of the puck in the history of hockey.

 

[maacoshark]

Say what? Orr’s defense was a leg hair’s thickness less than his offense. He was simply the best defenseman on both sides of the puck in the history of hockey.

Did you watch him play? He wasnt a shut down dman.

 

[Barnum]

Did you watch him play? He wasnt a shut down dman.

Lol, the bigger question is, did you? Yes, I watched him play, and sometimes live in person too but from your statement, you didn’t see him play or your memory is very foggy.

Dude, he is considered one of the best and fastest skaters to lace them up and there is no question he was the best and fastest skater during his era. So, now, you want to say his defense was okay or something? Not according to the people who played against him, they all say he was as good defensively as offensively. Not only did he just keep the puck away from everyone but he killed off penalties like no one else ever nor will ever do by going up and down the ice with the puck. I suggest, watching some videos or reading some books about his defense because they all say how great his defense was.

Only the younger folk and haters say his defense was not that good.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Interesting discussion.

For those old and lucky enough to see Orr play in his prime. There will simply never be another player like him. He is my pick for greatest hockey player to ever lace it up.

There should be an award with his name on it, that symbolizes his brilliance.

For me the only 2 trophies that would meet this criteria and do him and the award justice is renaming the Hart or Norris trophy the Bobby Orr trophy.

I would be on board for this. Any player winning a trophy with Bobby Orr on it would be ticked pink I surmise.

 

[daver]

Either rename the trophies or stop trying to intro new ones.

The Art Ross to the Wayne Gretzky
The Hart to the Howe
The Norris to the Orr

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Either rename the trophies or stop trying to intro new ones.

The Art Ross to the Wayne Gretzky
The Hart to the Howe
The Norris to the Orr

I would be on board with this.

Now we just have to find an appropriate trophy for Mario. He deserves an award to his name.

 

[ThatGuy22]

It be for it. It would have changed a lot of Norris Trophies lately I think. My thought experiment on probable changes since last lockout is below.

2012-2013:Norris = Suter; Orr= Subban. This was an extremely close vote, 30 points seperating Subban and Suter. If Subban wins Orr trophy, enough votes probably shift to Suter winning him the Norris.

2013-2014: Norris = Keith, Orr = Karlsson. No change to Norris, vote was a blowout. Karlsson wins Orr.

2014-2015:Norris = Doughty; Orr= Karlsson. Another close vote, Doughty actually had most first place votes. Karlsson wasn't quite as ridiculous offensively. Doughty probably wins Norris.

2015-2016:Norris = Karlsson; Orr= Karlsson. This is where it gets interesting. I think Doughty won this one as a bit of "he's due/rectify last year's wrong". If Doughty wins 14/15 he has a Norris and Karlsson's ridiculous offense that season has him win both.

2015-2016:Norris = Karlsson; Orr= Burns. This one is a bit tough, and maybe most controversial. If there is a point award, does Hedman get enough of a bump to get closer into the Norris race? Maybe, but this one is the least clear cut to me.

 

[Bladerunner]

I would be on board with this.

Now we just have to find an appropriate trophy for Mario. He deserves an award to his name.

The trophy renames are very sensible. However not likely based on NHL precedence. Renaming trophies has it's own issues.

Hadn't M Richard passed before they created the trophy that bears his name? Anyway it's not some "diss" to name a trophy for the highest scoring dman after Orr. Fans can debate how great he was in his own end, but only a troll would suggest that Orr shouldn't have win all those Norris's

 

[Bladerunner]

It be for it. It would have changed a lot of Norris Trophies lately I think. My thought experiment on probable changes since last lockout is below.

2012-2013:Norris = Suter; Orr= Subban. This was an extremely close vote, 30 points seperating Subban and Suter. If Subban wins Orr trophy, enough votes probably shift to Suter winning him the Norris.

2013-2014: Norris = Keith, Orr = Karlsson. No change to Norris, vote was a blowout. Karlsson wins Orr.

2014-2015:Norris = Doughty; Orr= Karlsson. Another close vote, Doughty actually had most first place votes. Karlsson wasn't quite as ridiculous offensively. Doughty probably wins Norris.

2015-2016:Norris = Karlsson; Orr= Karlsson. This is where it gets interesting. I think Doughty won this one as a bit of "he's due/rectify last year's wrong". If Doughty wins 14/15 he has a Norris and Karlsson's ridiculous offense that season has him win both.

2015-2016:Norris = Karlsson; Orr= Burns. This one is a bit tough, and maybe most controversial. If there is a point award, does Hedman get enough of a bump to get closer into the Norris race? Maybe, but this one is the least clear cut to me.

In your recent sample of 5 seasons only once did the Norris & Orr go to the same player.

Don't understand why some are saying it would (usually) go to the same player. It's as if they don't realize that having an Orr trophy will give great defenders that aren't near the top in scoring a chance to win the Norris !

 

[snowkiddin]

"best all around defenseman" is kinda tricky to define. There are offensive Dmen who are elite offensively and alright defensively, and there are defensive Dmen who are elite defensively and alright offensively. Which one is the most complete? That's kinda tough to say.

I guess at the end of the day, people vote (or should vote) for the Dman who has the biggest positive impact on the game.

Very good point. Personally, I prefer a sound defensive defenseman over a good offensive defenseman, but it also depends on the makeup of my team. Personal preferences shouldn't have an impact on who wins the Norris trophy though.

And it just seems like to me that the past few years the Norris trophy has gone to (one of) the highest scoring defensemen, when I don't think that's what the Norris trophy is for, personally.

 

[bukwas]

Did you watch him play? He wasnt a shut down dman.

I did and yes he was, in addition to being incredible on offense.

Oh, and BTW, tough as nails too.

 

[Channelcat]

Its been discussed before. I think the main argument against, is that its relatively easy to get points as a D if you don't play any defense. Zone entries are easy as a D, if you don't mind all the goals against.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

In your recent sample of 5 seasons only once did the Norris & Orr go to the same player.

Don't understand why some are saying it would (usually) go to the same player. It's as if they don't realize that having an Orr trophy will give great defenders that aren't near the top in scoring a chance to win the Norris !

I think aside from the alternative history it would actually set up the conversation in a different light as well, so who knows if all five are different if the voters start approaching the award as if they're not compelled to give it simply for overwhelming offensive numbers?

 

[Dod93Cityt]

They already do, its called the James Norris Trophy

 

[Nosferatu]

Good idea. I'd rather name it after some older player because it would be unfair for Gordie Wayne etc because they dont have any trophies named after them.

 

[Appleyard]

Good idea. I'd rather name it after some older player because it would be unfair for Gordie Wayne etc because they dont have any trophies named after them.

Probably have to call it the King Clancy then (he would have got ~5 of them)... which might be problematic!

Though Eddie Shore, Bill Gadsby and Doug Harvey all won a fair few, cannot be bothered to go and count, but all for sure had 4+.

 

[Nosferatu]

Probably have to call it the King Clancy then (he would have got ~5 of them)... which might be problematic!

Though Eddie Shore, Bill Gadsby and Doug Harvey all won a fair few, cannot be bothered to go and count, but all for sure had 4+.

King Clancy sounds nice. That would be a good name for the trophy.

 

[SotasicA]

Sorry if it's been mentioned, but this thread reminds me of the one of the greatest HF Boards threads ever:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/the-paul-coffey-memorial-trophy.1857391/

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I like history, but I also like change that reflects the game today. A lot of kids who follow the game now probably have never heard of James Norris.

I think the Bobby Orr trophy would be a perfect update in renaming the Norris Trophy, It could not be a better fit in describing the best defenceman in the NHL than to name it after the best defenceman that has ever played the game.

I would not be against renaming the Hart the Wayne Gretzky Trophy and the Bill Masterton the Mario Lemieux Trophy either to reflect a modern image.