Post-Game Talk: The biggest game of the McDrai era

[guymez]

Ekholm is steadier than Nurse. Also, a more mature Bouchard is better than any D partner Nurse has had...ever perhaps?

Also, we all know that Nurse isn't worth his salary. That's just beating a dead horse at this point, nobody is even arguing this.
I'm just disputing the claims that he's not a top pairing Dman and giving reasons why I think he makes mistakes as often as he does.

On the other hand, I feel he's undervalued around here for two reasons, because folks attach him to $9.25m and hold him to that standard and nothing less and because, two, the focus is much more on his mistakes as opposed to what he does well.
Perfect example.... Hardly a word muttered about him after the first 3 games outside of the one critical mistake he made in OT when he played very well for the majority of those games yet he's all over the headline when he made some mistakes in the 1st period in particular yesterday.

I think for me I have trouble figuring out exactly what Nurse is in terms of a ranking.

Thats why I posted the question about carrying lesser dmen.
I mean I would be comfortable putting virtually any dman on the team beside Ekholm and I am absolutely not comfortable doing that with Nurse.

Nurse simply doesnt own a refined enough game for him to be able to take that on and be successful. Thats been proven time and time again over the last few years.
So IMO that suggests that he definitely isnt a #1 dman because that is a quality that a #1 dman has.
I think that Nurse is a #2/#3 dman. No shame in that except that he is grossly overpaid for that role.

The only reason IMO why Nurse got the contract he did was because the team simply didnt have another dman that was better. Nurse was the best dman on the team.
That more than anything was an indictment on the quality of the defence.
As the team moves forward (and improves the defence) its going to be harder to justify Nurse and his contract.

 

[OiledUp]

He's such a ridiculous playoff performer. Incredible. Even last year on one leg he was a beast.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Anyone else feel nauseous like all week ? Man these playoffs sure wreck havoc on my stomach and central nervous system.

This series has been so close the whole time it’s been ridiculous. We haven’t had a relaxing period of hockey yet.

 

[guymez]

Yeah, I've been pretty vocal in my disdain for Campbell and harping on him for owing us at least 16 goals based off his GSAA. But it's a way better story if Campbell actually takes this and runs with it. Imagine him returning even half of those 16 goals over a playoff run. He'd become a folk hero. History shows him to be somewhat streaky, so it could happen. But we also had several examples this year where we thought he was about to turn it around only to see it fall apart soon after with the exception of the short stretch when Skinner was unavailble.

My brain says Skinner without any doubt, but the gut is saying Campbell could run with this. Looking forward to Woody's decision, whichever it is, becomes the correct one.

I tend to agree with you.

Honestly though....it would sure be nice to have better options than an inexperienced rookie and a inconsistent streaky veteran.

This is IMO Hollands only major failure this season. These shouldnt be the only 2 options for a team that (in every other aspect) is a legit contender.

 

[Mav3rick07]

This series has been so close the whole time it’s been ridiculous. We haven’t had a relaxing period of hockey yet.

Good point. Every game has been either tied going into the third or tied going into over-time.

 

[Frank the Tank]

I actually don't think its a really obvious penalty myself. I likely wouldn't have called it if I was the ref, and even on replay I'm not sure that I do (even though it might technically be a penalty).

Why even entertain the premise? ONE borderline call goes against the Kings and now reffing is a problem in their minds?

1) The Oilers experienced the same thing multiply times in Games 1-3
2) The other team receiving two PPs shouldn't result in two goals against in a single period and a blown 3 goal lead.

 

[CupofOil]

I think for me I have trouble figuring out exactly what Nurse is in terms of a ranking.

Thats why I posted the question about carrying lesser dmen.
I mean I would be comfortable putting virtually any damn on the team beside Ekholm and I am absolutely not comfortable doing that with Nurse.

Nurse simply doesnt own a refined enough game for him to be able to take that on and be successful. Thats been proven time and time again over the last few years.
So IMO that suggests that he definitely isnt a #1 dman because that is a quality that a #1 dman has.
I think that Nurse is a #2/#3 dman. No shame in that except that he is grossly overpaid for that role.

The only reason IMO why Nurse got the contract he did was because the team simply didnt have another dman that was better. Nurse was the best dman on the team.
That more than anything was an indictment on the quality of the defence.
As the team moves forward (and improves the defence) its going to be harder to justify Nurse and his contract.

Nurse is overpaid as has been well documented but he's been successful in his role especially at even strength despite the mistakes he makes. The PK is where I'd like to see his minutes scaled down, his lack of anticipation really gets exposed on the PK.

 

[bone]

He's such a ridiculous playoff performer. Incredible. Even last year on one leg he was a beast.

Number 2 all time in point per game in playoff games. Granted he only has 41 games, but at this point it would take quite a slump to fall out of the top 10. If he went pointless in his next 14 games he'd still be number 10 (unless Rantanen's production increased)

NHL & WHA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Points Per Game | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (1.837), 2. Leon Draisaitl (1.661), 3. Connor McDavid (1.643), 4. Mario Lemieux (1.607), 5. Barry Pederson (1.529), 6. Nathan MacKinnon (1.318), 7. Mikko Rantanen (1.269), 8. Mark Messier (1.250), 9. Bobby Orr (1.243), 10. Mike Bossy (1.240)

www.hockey-reference.com

I tend to agree with you.

Honestly though....it would sure be nice to have better options than an inexperienced rookie and a inconsistent streaky veteran.

This is IMO Hollands only major failure this season. These shouldnt be the only 2 options for a team that (in every other aspect) is a legit contender.

Well it's not uncommon that a team only has 2 real options for goaltending in the playoffs. The issue is that the money was spent on the inconsistent streaky veteran.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The question for me though....why is it that a dman of Ekholms caliber can carry an inexperienced (or lesser) player and Nurse cant?
Shouldnt there be an expectation of that from Nurse considering his pay grade?

We've seen two examples of new veteran d-men, Keith and Ekholm being able to positively influence and stabilize a green banana d-partner, ironically the same play in Bouchard. There are probably several reasons for this including a calming, credible voice of experience able to guide and mentor but I think also a consistent game in which a young player has some certainty in where his partner will be and how they will approach a variety of situations on the ice. This latter element is effective management of the chaos factor within a game built upon it due to the speed and complexity involved. Keith and Ekholm through all of these elements help to minimize chaos and uncertainty while helping stabilizing through their wisdom, extremely high processing skills, and consistency in their game.

Nurse is a wild horse who is not easy to read for his d-partners. Unfortunately he often brings more chaos and uncertainty with inconsistent own zone play. His instinct is to play highly aggressively but his ability to read the play is not at the level of Keith or Ekholm. He is an absolute elite athlete who can skate forever with an insatiable desire to win and try to carry this team through his play. Unfortunately that leads still to poor decision making at time which, as last line of defense, can wind up in the Oilers net. Because of this, I don't think Nurse is an easy d-partner to play with and to react to a guy who will over play aggressively leaving home base unattended to chase down a forward with the puck looking to transition the team to offence.

Personally, I always thought Nurse was going to grow into a physical beast shutdown defender with a solid two way game driven by his great skating ability. However when the game evolved into a faster puck movement style Nurse adapted his training to become a leaner, lighter player to focus on puck transporting, offensive rush support, and a less physical, position based style of defending. Never thought I'd see Nurse lose physical battles but that happens a fair bit and has hurt his game, imo.

Lots to like about Nurse. However I've felt for a long while that he needs a higher end, stabilizing d-pair to help his game and team. I still like Nurse a fair bit but there are holes in his game that can undue at times all the very good play he delivers.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Good point. Every game has been either tied going into the third or tied going into over-time.

If a game wasn't tied but was going into overtime, there might be a few questions asked and eyebrows raised .

 

[Forgot About Drai]

We've seen two examples of new veteran d-men, Keith and Ekholm being able to positively influence and stabilize a green banana d-partner, ironically the same play in Bouchard. There are probably several reasons for this including a calming, credible voice of experience able to guide and mentor but I think also a consistent game in which a young player has some certainty in where his partner will be and how they will approach a variety of situations on the ice. This latter element is effective management of the chaos factor within a game built upon it due to the speed and complexity involved. Keith and Ekholm through all of these elements help to minimize chaos and uncertainty while helping stabilizing through their wisdom, extremely high processing skills, and consistency in their game.

Nurse is a wild horse who is not easy to read for his d-partners. Unfortunately he often brings more chaos and uncertainty with inconsistent own zone play. His instinct is to play highly aggressively but his ability to read the play is not at the level of Keith or Ekholm. He is an absolute elite athlete who can skate forever with an insatiable desire to win and try to carry this team through his play. Unfortunately that leads still to poor decision making at time which, as last line of defense, can wind up in the Oilers net. Because of this, I don't think Nurse is an easy d-partner to play with and to react to a guy who will over play aggressively leaving home base unattended to chase down a forward with the puck looking to transition the team to offence.

Personally, I always thought Nurse was going to grow into a physical beast shutdown defender with a solid two way game driven by his great skating ability. However when the game evolved into a faster puck movement style Nurse adapted his training to become a leaner, lighter player to focus on puck transporting, offensive rush support, and a less physical, position based style of defending. Never thought I'd see Nurse lose physical battles but that happens a fair bit and has hurt his game, imo.

Lots to like about Nurse. However I've felt for a long while that he needs a higher end, stabilizing d-pair to help his game and team. I still like Nurse a fair bit but there are holes in his game that can undue at times all the very good play he delivers.

Good post + analysis.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Number 2 all time in point per game in playoff games. Granted he only has 41 games, but at this point it would take quite a slump to fall out of the top 10. If he went pointless in his next 14 games he'd still be number 10 (unless Rantanen's production increased)

NHL & WHA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Points Per Game | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (1.837), 2. Leon Draisaitl (1.661), 3. Connor McDavid (1.643), 4. Mario Lemieux (1.607), 5. Barry Pederson (1.529), 6. Nathan MacKinnon (1.318), 7. Mikko Rantanen (1.269), 8. Mark Messier (1.250), 9. Bobby Orr (1.243), 10. Mike Bossy (1.240)

www.hockey-reference.com

Well it's not uncommon that a team only has 2 real options for goaltending in the playoffs. The issue is that the money was spent on the inconsistent streaky veteran.

Within that it needs to be considered that Drai is playing tougher clubs in playoffs, and within a capped league where parity is more the thing. NHL for awhile was 16/21 teams making the playoffs and not all of those teams were good. So that the Oilers type teams of the day were loading up goals. 8-10 goal scores were routine. In playoffs.

Drai is doing this under much harder circumstance against better teams. it isn't 1 vs 16 anymore. (out of 21 NHL clubs.) To even make the playoffs now you have to be median or better team. That was never the case in the past. To make playoffs you had to just avoid being one of the worst teams in league.

 

[guymez]

Nurse is overpaid as has been well documented but he's been successful in his role especially at even strength despite the mistakes he makes. The PK is where I'd like to see his minutes scaled down, his lack of anticipation really gets exposed on the PK.

I agree...especially the bolded. It may have something to do with his processor as well.

I guess my previous post was more about why I dont see Nurse as a #1 dman and that his contract has potentially thrown off the salary structure of the defence moving forward.

We've seen two examples of new veteran d-men, Keith and Ekholm being able to positively influence and stabilize a green banana d-partner, ironically the same play in Bouchard. There are probably several reasons for this including a calming, credible voice of experience able to guide and mentor but I think also a consistent game in which a young player has some certainty in where his partner will be and how they will approach a variety of situations on the ice. This latter element is effective management of the chaos factor within a game built upon it due to the speed and complexity involved. Keith and Ekholm through all of these elements help to minimize chaos and uncertainty while helping stabilizing through their wisdom, extremely high processing skills, and consistency in their game.

Nurse is a wild horse who is not easy to read for his d-partners. Unfortunately he often brings more chaos and uncertainty with inconsistent own zone play. His instinct is to play highly aggressively but his ability to read the play is not at the level of Keith or Ekholm. He is an absolute elite athlete who can skate forever with an insatiable desire to win and try to carry this team through his play. Unfortunately that leads still to poor decision making at time which, as last line of defense, can wind up in the Oilers net. Because of this, I don't think Nurse is an easy d-partner to play with and to react to a guy who will over play aggressively leaving home base unattended to chase down a forward with the puck looking to transition the team to offence.

Personally, I always thought Nurse was going to grow into a physical beast shutdown defender with a solid two way game driven by his great skating ability. However when the game evolved into a faster puck movement style Nurse adapted his training to become a leaner, lighter player to focus on puck transporting, offensive rush support, and a less physical, position based style of defending. Never thought I'd see Nurse lose physical battles but that happens a fair bit and has hurt his game, imo.

Lots to like about Nurse. However I've felt for a long while that he needs a higher end, stabilizing d-pair to help his game and team. I still like Nurse a fair bit but there are holes in his game that can undue at times all the very good play he delivers.

Excellent post.

Couldnt agree more.

 

[Mr Sakich]

I was just cruising the Dallas Minnie playoff thread. Last 4 or 5 pages are nothing but ref bashing. Funny thing, there wasn't an issue till the last game. I wonder what changed?

 

[bellagiobob]

I don't think its a tough call at all myself, although I appear to be in the minority on this. Skinner has been the better goalie ALL YEAR, and it hasn't been close at all. A small 4 game sample in his first playoffs doesn't change that. He is, as you say, a fundamentally better goalie, and again its by a very large margin. Campbell had a good save% but was still his normal "I don't seem to know where the puck is half the time" shitshow in his crease. He could be great, but he is just as likely to be absolute hot garbage. Skinner, even when he is kinda off (as he admittedly has been the last few games), isn't nearly as bas as Campbell is when he is off. Campbell is one of the worst goalies in the league on expected goals above average, and 1 "good game" (where he still LOOKED bad) isn't going to change that. Skinner is the goalie you go back to, no question in my mind at all.

Who’s been better all year is really irrelevant at this stage of the game. It boils down to which goalie the coach feels gives the team the best chance to win the game tomorrow. Skinner has been the second best goalie all series, and Campbell was by far the best goalie last night. Having said that, it doesn’t mean it’s obviously Campbell for the next game, but it’s worthy of a lengthy discussion by the coaches. Hope they make the right choice!

 

[ujju2]

This series has been so close the whole time it’s been ridiculous. We haven’t had a relaxing period of hockey yet.

First period of game 1 was relaxing enough. Game 2 as well, but we all had the memory of game 1 still.

 

[Mez]

McDavid hopping up and down after the Hyman OVERTIME WINNER yesterday was so cute

 

[Oilers in NS]

Reading lots of comments from our fans on Sportsnet
Most common one is about Yamamoto. He is being gifted minutes , losing puck battles, losing his coverage, can’t score. Kostin is sitting on the bench. Some say if Janmark was not injured, Yamamoto would be scratch. Would it be worth taking a chance on Holloway?

Anyone know how long Janmark out for? Might be back next series?

 

[Mez]

Reading lots of comments from our fans on Sportsnet
Most common one is about Yamamoto. He is being gifted minutes , losing puck battles, losing his coverage, can’t score. Kostin is sitting on the bench. Some say if Janmark was not injured, Yamamoto would be scratch. Would it be worth taking a chance on Holloway?

Anyone know how long Janmark out for? Might be back next series?

No, we don't need more rookie mistakes. You only play Holloway in an emergency imo. I miss Janmark....wtf happened to him...Gregor sources right for once.

 

[bellagiobob]

 

[bone]

Within that it needs to be considered that Drai is playing tougher clubs in playoffs, and within a capped league where parity is more the thing. NHL for awhile was 16/21 teams making the playoffs and not all of those teams were good. So that the Oilers type teams of the day were loading up goals. 8-10 goal scores were routine. In playoffs.

Drai is doing this under much harder circumstance against better teams. it isn't 1 vs 16 anymore. (out of 21 NHL clubs.) To even make the playoffs now you have to be median or better team. That was never the case in the past. To make playoffs you had to just avoid being one of the worst teams in league.

Definitely, though all the other top ten except McDavid and Pedersen have won cups (some of them multiple) so they would have also had a decent amount of games against the best of the best (well maybe not the Norris teams for Gretzky and Messier, but the Division Final often featured 2 of the top 5 teams in the league in their era). Whereas Drais only had 4 games outside the second round. Those teams also often swept teams meaning only 3 or 4 games instead of 6 or 7 games.

I don't say this to minimize his achievements just throwing a counterpoint for consideration, but he's been an amazing playoff performer.

No, we don't need more rookie mistakes. You only play Holloway in an emergency imo. I miss Janmark....wtf happened to him...Gregor sources right for once.

Agreed. Holloway only plays if there's injuries. As much as Yamo isn't accomplishing much offensively he doesn't make a lot of mistakes that turn directly into goals against or chances against. Holloway's been guilty of several this year.

The push for Holloway in the top six starts next year.

 

[bone]

No, we don't need more rookie mistakes. You only play Holloway in an emergency imo. I miss Janmark....wtf happened to him...Gregor sources right for once.

I think the sources were his eyes. Between those shots taken on the side of the foot and the look of despair with looking down at his hand after another block makes it look likely one of those shots broke something.

 

[Frank the Tank]

No, we don't need more rookie mistakes. You only play Holloway in an emergency imo. I miss Janmark....wtf happened to him...Gregor sources right for once.

ESPN showed a close-up of Janmark on the bench icing his hand after blocking a shot on the PK. Gregor claims it was a blocked shot that hit the inside of his foot (with accompanying video footage) and Janmark was limping after the game. Either way he seems to be out for the near future (Gregor claimed done for the series).

 

[joestevens29]

Definitely, though all the other top ten except McDavid and Pedersen have won cups (some of them multiple) so they would have also had a decent amount of games against the best of the best (well maybe not the Norris teams for Gretzky and Messier, but the Division Final often featured 2 of the top 5 teams in the league in their era). Whereas Drais only had 4 games outside the second round. Those teams also often swept teams meaning only 3 or 4 games instead of 6 or 7 games.

I don't say this to minimize his achievements just throwing a counterpoint for consideration, but he's been an amazing playoff performer.


Agreed. Holloway only plays if there's injuries. As much as Yamo isn't accomplishing much offensively he doesn't make a lot of mistakes that turn directly into goals against or chances against. Holloway's been guilty of several this year.

The push for Holloway in the top six starts next year.

Yamo needs to stop standing around watching the puck in our own end. That set play that LA scored on he literally just stopped skating. If he would've kept skating maybe he ties up a stick or makes it a little more difficult to score.

Couple times when there was a scramble he's just watching the puck and I wonder why. It's not like he's doing anything with his back to the other players so get in there and help dig.

Team as a whole though has a lot of that. Almost afraid to get caught out of position, but standing watching the puck does nothing. LA seems to do very well in front of their net and our net, always seem to have one more guy than we do in there.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

No, we don't need more rookie mistakes. You only play Holloway in an emergency imo. I miss Janmark....wtf happened to him...Gregor sources right for once.

I agree. The Kings would be relentless on him.