The Battle for USA-CAN Dual Citizen Players

[Harbourmouth]

The notion that US/European Hockey players will always go back to where they are from and Canadians won't is not true at all. It has nothing to do with origins and nationalities. Its everything to do with the fact that players are going to stay where the best chance is for them to do something with themselves after their playing career is over. Most cases, that is right where they played the majority of their NHL career. That's where they are famous, that's where they are recognized, and that's where all their connections and "in's" are.

The reason it's more obvious with Canadians is that A) They make up a large majority of the league and B) There's way more American franchises for them to lay their roots in. Off the top of my head alone I can think of at least a dozen US/European hockey players just here in Calgary that now permanently call the city home. A lot of long time Flames that have been traded over the past few years also have kept their residence and fully intend on returning. Even Kipper who was notorious for going back to Finland within minutes of the season ending continues to live in raise his family in Calgary.

 

[New User Name]

The notion that US/European Hockey players will always go back to where they are from and Canadians won't is not true at all. It has nothing to do with origins and nationalities. Its everything to do with the fact that players are going to stay where the best chance is for them to do something with themselves after their playing career is over. Most cases, that is right where they played the majority of their NHL career. That's where they are famous, that's where they are recognized, and that's where all their connections and "in's" are.

The reason it's more obvious with Canadians is that A) They make up a large majority of the league and B) There's way more American franchises for them to lay their roots in. Off the top of my head alone I can think of at least a dozen US/European hockey players just here in Calgary that now permanently call the city home. A lot of long time Flames that have been traded over the past few years also have kept their residence and fully intend on returning. Even Kipper who was notorious for going back to Finland within minutes of the season ending continues to live in raise his family in Calgary.

Love to hear who they are.

 

[chunkylover53]

Love to hear who they are.

Somewhat offtopic, but I found interesting that recent duals like Dylan Olsen, Tyler Meyers, and Brandon Kozun were born in America but moved to Calgary and represented Canada subsequently.

 

[Xokkeu]

I certainly don't begrudge him his choice. He grew up as an American - it would be weird if he chose to play for Canada.

However, I do wonder if part of why Canadians don't generally care about this sort of thing (i.e. someone like Parise playing for America) is because we have more than enough top-notch hockey players whereas, if more and more top-notch hockey players were of other nationalities and there were fewer Canadian superstars, maybe we would resent it more when someone has a choice between Canada and another country and chooses the other country. Or maybe Canadians just don't care as much because Canada isn't really a nationalistic country (patriotic, yes; nationalistic, no), so Canadians are perhaps not that offended when someone chooses another country over Canada. I'm not saying any of these theories are right though - just throwing some speculation out there.



Yeah, I do admit that this kind of thing bothers me a bit. It's one thing to choose the country where you grew up and developed over the country where you were born but didn't spend much time in and have no emotional ties to, but a whole other thing to ditch the country that you grew up and developed in and that gave you all the opportunities you've had in your lifetime for some other country that you have nothing but a nominal tie to.

I understand why athletes do it (for example, a chance to go to the Olympics that you otherwise would not have) but I have to say that it always makes me think less of the athletes who do it (not that they care what I think, heh). This isn't because I have a problem with multiple citizenships and using a certain citizenship that you have to get you ahead in life (I don't have a problem with this at all in ordinary circumstances for regular people trying to get a job or something that is not related to national identity), but because these athletes are putting on a national team uniform and representing a country, I tend to believe that there should be some sense of connection and loyalty to the country that they're suiting up for.

That said, if an athlete chooses a country other than the one that they have real emotional ties to, at the very least, I think they should stick with it no matter what and not jump ship when a "better" opportunity presents itself.



I 100% agree. If you're going to actively pick a national team to be a part of, you should stick with it!

Well Owen Hargreaves is the most hated man in Canadian soccer. Jonathan de Guzman isn't too popular either, although I think because of recent results I think most Canadian soccer fans can't really blame De Guzman for jumping ship at this point.

 

[Xokkeu]

I don't believe that the IIHF does a particularly good job of ensuring that players represent the nation that developed them. This is particularly true for lower level nations in Europe who will sometimes use a North American player who played in their domestic league for years. I have no idea why citizenship should even be connected to hockey.

USA benefits most from the situation, and presumably always will, but I'm not sure how many players they can keep from Europe. Many European players seem to return home to Europe and players like Tikhonov or Nylander seem to want to represent their father's nation. I suspect that European players put fr more emphasis on retaining their culture in the United States than do Canadian players.



I suspect that patriotism is the primary reason that many American players return. I highly doubt that the quality of life for a millionaire is significantly different in Vancouver than in St. Louis or wherever else. I can't think of anything else.

In the past, the players had to return and work after their NHL careers. It helped to go back somewhere where you had built in roots, and also where being a former hockey player afforded you a certain level of fame. Now, if a Canadian player retires in the United States, has an American wife and American kids, there really isn't any need to go back to Canada if they are already happy.

We really are talking about just a handful of USA hockey players who grew up almost entirely in Canada. Jason Pominville, Brett Hull and Adam Deadmarsch are the ones off the top of my head. Only Hull or Deadmarsch ever made it to an Olympic squad.

Guys like Foligno and Wilson are a debatable case since they mostly grew up in Canada but played for the NDTP system.

 

[Xokkeu]

Has there been a case opposite of Hull, Pominville, Deadmarsh?

Where their fathers were American hockey players/figures and they were born and raised in America but played for Canada (dual because of Canadian mother).

Up until the 1980s there were hardly any Americans in the NHL. So the likelihood of all those genetic and logistical factors jumping together is pretty much zero.

 

[JackSlater]

We really are talking about just a handful of USA hockey players who grew up almost entirely in Canada. Jason Pominville, Brett Hull and Adam Deadmarsch are the ones off the top of my head. Only Hull or Deadmarsch ever made it to an Olympic squad.

Guys like Foligno and Wilson are a debatable case since they mostly grew up in Canada but played for the NDTP system.

Considering Canada as of yet has not had this situation happen, and considering that Hull switching basically swung a best on best tournament result, I would say that USA has done exceptionally well in this regard. I also don't consider Foligno or Wilson debatable. It's going to happen soon with Canada though (unfortunately) but as you say up to this point the opportunity for Canada to have this situation has thus far been limited.

 

[Xokkeu]

Considering Canada as of yet has not had this situation happen, and considering that Hull switching basically swung a best on best tournament result, I would say that USA has done exceptionally well in this regard. I also don't consider Foligno or Wilson debatable. It's going to happen soon with Canada though (unfortunately) but as you say up to this point the opportunity for Canada to have this situation has thus far been limited.

Chychrun looks like he's going to break the mold

Fair point on Hull. Without him the US doesn't win the World Cup.

 

[IHaveNoCreativity]

Campoli and Kyrs are big losses.

 

[Xokkeu]

Campoli and Kyrs are big losses.

Are they losses? Krys spent his entire lives in the US for the most part. Same reason Tyler Myers isn't a loss to the US

 

[Leafidelity]

I don't think it's ever really bothered me too much other than Brett Hull. That decision was more about a bruised ego than American patriotism. I think it may be more about the integration styles between Canada and the US. America is well known as the big melting pot. Ask a Canadian where his family is from and he'll default to the country his family immigrated from. An Irish Canadian, or Scottish Canadian, ect.

For me, the interesting cases are the second generation Europeans we're starting to see. The guys like William Nylander and Kasperi Kapanen. Guys who grew up in Canada or the US for their formative years, yet still identify with their parents roots. I can't till we see a few "ov' last names playing for Canada, or a John Smith playing for Russia.

 

[JackSlater]

Chychrun looks like he's going to break the mold

Fair point on Hull. Without him the US doesn't win the World Cup.

Yeah Chychrun looks inclined to play for Canada, for whatever reason. Does anyone actually know why he actually wants to play for Canada? My only thought is that he was angry about not being granted the option of playing in the USHL at a younger age than allowable.

 

[Xokkeu]

Yeah Chychrun looks inclined to play for Canada, for whatever reason. Does anyone actually know why he actually wants to play for Canada? My only thought is that he was angry about not being granted the option of playing in the USHL at a younger age than allowable.

Well his dad is Canadian so who knows. Maybe it's truly as petty as the USHL issue or maybe he's like the Italian soccer player Giuseppe Rossi whose dad always pushed him towards Italy.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

All I know is that if I was some star in the NHL who played all his career in the U.S and my kid grew up to be a great hockey player he would be playing for Canada because he would have been so thoroughly brainwashed to do so long before the choice was available to him.

That would start from birth, like spartan training.It would just be automatic for the kid come decision time.

What I can't understand is why our players that stay down there don't do the same.

 

[Xokkeu]

All I know is that if I was some star in the NHL who played all his career in the U.S and my kid grew up to be a great hockey player he would be playing for Canada because he would have been so thoroughly brainwashed to do so long before the choice was available to him.

That would start from birth, like spartan training.It would just be automatic for the kid come decision time.

What I can't understand is why our players that stay down there don't do the same.

Do you have kids?

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Do you have kids?

No, but if i did my thinking would not change one iota.

 

[Xokkeu]

No, but if i did my thinking would not change one iota.

Good luck telling your kids what to do.

 

[londonHK]

Well Owen Hargreaves is the most hated man in Canadian soccer. Jonathan de Guzman isn't too popular either, although I think because of recent results I think most Canadian soccer fans can't really blame De Guzman for jumping ship at this point.

These examples would support my first theory, which is that Canadians don't care about someone like Parise playing for the US because we have more than enough top-notch hockey players, but if more and more top-notch hockey players were of other nationalities and there were fewer Canadian superstars, Canadians might resent it more when someone chooses a country other than Canada. Canada doesn't tend to produce soccer superstars, so it may be more resented when a Canadian chooses to represent a country other than Canada in international soccer. Or something like that...?

 

[canucksfan]

Well Owen Hargreaves is the most hated man in Canadian soccer. Jonathan de Guzman isn't too popular either, although I think because of recent results I think most Canadian soccer fans can't really blame De Guzman for jumping ship at this point.

Neither one should get criticized. Soccer Canada is a complete joke.

 

[JackSlater]

All I know is that if I was some star in the NHL who played all his career in the U.S and my kid grew up to be a great hockey player he would be playing for Canada because he would have been so thoroughly brainwashed to do so long before the choice was available to him.

That would start from birth, like spartan training.It would just be automatic for the kid come decision time.

What I can't understand is why our players that stay down there don't do the same.

Most of them probably put more thought into the millions of more significant parenting issues.

These examples would support my first theory, which is that Canadians don't care about someone like Parise playing for the US because we have more than enough top-notch hockey players, but if more and more top-notch hockey players were of other nationalities and there were fewer Canadian superstars, Canadians might resent it more when someone chooses a country other than Canada. Canada doesn't tend to produce soccer superstars, so it may be more resented when a Canadian chooses to represent a country other than Canada in international soccer. Or something like that...?

It probably helps that it's easy to replace those players, but honestly I've never heard someone complain about Parise playing for USA. He is an American player. It would be ridiculous if he played for Canada just because his father did.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

I can't till we see a few "ov' last names playing for Canada

Is a Musil close enough?

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Neither one should get criticized. Soccer Canada is a complete joke.

The joke are FIFA's rules which allow you to represent a country you've never played the sport in

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Good luck telling your kids what to do.

Oh, they wouldn't even know what was happening to them.

Late saturday nights with ice cream floats and bags of potato chips while watching videos of the 72 summit series and other various glorious Canadian hockey victories all the while whispering to them tales of what it was like and what it all means to Canadians and how they really are Canadians.

It would be in the bag, tatooed into their conscience with borg like precision until it just became natural by age 10 at the latest.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Most of them probably put more thought into the millions of more significant parenting issues.



It probably helps that it's easy to replace those players, but honestly I've never heard someone complain about Parise playing for USA. He is an American player. It would be ridiculous if he played for Canada just because his father did.

What could be more significant then that?

 

[cagney]

Yeah Chychrun looks inclined to play for Canada, for whatever reason. Does anyone actually know why he actually wants to play for Canada? My only thought is that he was angry about not being granted the option of playing in the USHL at a younger age than allowable.

I've gotten the impression that he and a number of other duals from the '98 birth year who live in the US were influenced by Canada's 2010 Olympic victory.