The Battle for USA-CAN Dual Citizen Players

[Bjorn Le]

No actually that's the complete opposite of what the article says what you're spouting off is your own conspiracy theory.

You can't just "use" one of your passports and pretend that's enough. Just this past season a kid on the Great Britain U20 team was deemed ineligible when they found out he held both a Canadian & British passport. It ended with their team being relegated. Ironically they were also the country to propose the rule change from 12+2 years to 10+2 years so the player that caused the problems is probably eligible now.

If Galchenyuk didn't forfeit his Russian passport, don't you think the Russians would have something to say about this? They'd be proving he still held a Russian passport which would result in USA being relegated at every level he represented USA at (U20 & Senior Men's World Championships).

Did you even read my post? Or the article? Do I have to spell it out for you?

Giving up your passport is NOT renouncing citizenship. That's ludicrous. The article speculates the IIHF bases nationality on what passport is getting stamped but there's no fact to that. Unless Galchenyuk says he's renouced his Russian citizenship, he's still a Russian citizen and therefore should be ineligible to play for the US but for some reason the IIHF doesn't view his case as such.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Has there been a case opposite of Hull, Pominville, Deadmarsh?

Where their fathers were American hockey players/figures and they were born and raised in America but played for Canada (dual because of Canadian mother).

Nope

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Did you even read my post? Or the article? Do I have to spell it out for you?

Giving up your passport is NOT renouncing citizenship. That's ludicrous. The article speculates the IIHF bases nationality on what passport is getting stamped but there's no fact to that. Unless Galchenyuk says he's renouced his Russian citizenship, he's still a Russian citizen and therefore should be ineligible to play for the US but for some reason the IIHF doesn't view his case as such.

On the other hand, he played for a team in a league that has teams in both Canada and the US. So playing in the OHL could count towards playing in the US.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

Did you even read my post? Or the article? Do I have to spell it out for you?

Giving up your passport is NOT renouncing citizenship. That's ludicrous. The article speculates the IIHF bases nationality on what passport is getting stamped but there's no fact to that. Unless Galchenyuk says he's renouced his Russian citizenship, he's still a Russian citizen and therefore should be ineligible to play for the US but for some reason the IIHF doesn't view his case as such.

and like I said, if that was the case, Russia would have something to say about it.

It's a nice conspiracy theory though.

 

[Eagles MA]

iirc Mathieu Schneider's son, Jordan, is Canadian, but he hasn't represented his country internationally

 

[Bjorn Le]

and like I said, if that was the case, Russia would have something to say about it.

It's a nice conspiracy theory though.

Who says they didn't? Not everything is going to end up in the public eye.

On the other hand, he played for a team in a league that has teams in both Canada and the US. So playing in the OHL could count towards playing in the US.

Could be but that further demonstrates my point about the vagueness and lack of consistency in the rule.

 

[AtNightWeFly]

and like I said, if that was the case, Russia would have something to say about it.

It's a nice conspiracy theory though.

Or maybe they don't care? He was born in Wisconsin for crying out loud. They didn't raise that kid, they don't have an attachment to him. Are they're supposed to claim him because he speaks with a familiar accent?

As for the US/Canadian debate, I feel like it doesn't matter where you were born. You should play for the team that feels more like home.

 

[SenzZen]

iirc Mathieu Schneider's son, Jordan, is Canadian, but he hasn't represented his country internationally

And something tells me that his case won't settle this discussion- since he's unlikely to get a chance to represent either.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

Who says they didn't? Not everything is going to end up in the public eye.

If IIHF was doing something wrong that was this significant, it would have been played out publicly.

It doesn't seem like Russia had much issue with it so I'm pretty sure it was well within the rules.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think a part of this is if the kid shows up in the CHL to many north of the border this debate would immediately end. What constitutes developing the talent, how slippery do you want that slope to be?

Parise is the kid of a legend and I understand that angle but he played his entire life basically in the United States and that is who he identifies with.

Different sport but I am pretty sure Canadians would love people to point out Wiggins father is American that played parts of 6 seasons in the NBA if the kid actually makes it in the NBA in the way many of us expect. Now certainly Parise's father was a bigger deal but how far do many of you want to qualify this?

 

[ricky0034]

personally i've always been of the opinion that people should just play for whatever country they were born in

would make things less confusing and just feels "right" to me

 

[chupanibre]

Sean Couturier is Canadian but was born in Phoenix AZ as his dad played there with the Roadrunners.

I disagree with the "play where you were born" philosophy. Being born somewhere and living there until you're 8 months old doesn't really give you very strong ties.

 

[JackSlater]

I think a part of this is if the kid shows up in the CHL to many north of the border this debate would immediately end. What constitutes developing the talent, how slippery do you want that slope to be?

Parise is the kid of a legend and I understand that angle but he played his entire life basically in the United States and that is who he identifies with.

Different sport but I am pretty sure Canadians would love people to point out Wiggins father is American that played parts of 6 seasons in the NBA if the kid actually makes it in the NBA in the way many of us expect. Now certainly Parise's father was a bigger deal but how far do many of you want to qualify this?

I don't think that many in Canada begrudge Parise for playing for USA. As you say, he was raised there. Some people may wish that J.P. Parise had returned home and raised his son, but that isn't what happened. The bigger issue for people is when a player was trained primarily in one country, and then represents another.

 

[JayKing]

The only problem I have with this situation is when players try for one team, get cut then decide to go play for the other team. I have no problem with them choosing but once you do, at least commit all the way through.

 

[orangeandblack]

I don't think that many in Canada begrudge Parise for playing for USA. As you say, he was raised there. Some people may wish that J.P. Parise had returned home and raised his son, but that isn't what happened. The bigger issue for people is when a player was trained primarily in one country, and then represents another.

How many Canadian hockey professionals that actually spend several years playing in the US and make a significant amount of money return to live full-time in Canada? If you accumulated assets in the US, its much more favorable to stay in a more capitalistic country. Not to mention if your wife is American. I can tell you as an American, non of us are beating down the door to live in Canada.

Id have to guess that out of the English speaking Canadians that fit that criteria, 65-70% will stay in the US.

 

[JackSlater]

How many Canadian hockey professionals that actually spend several years playing in the US and make a significant amount of money return to live full-time in Canada? If you accumulated assets in the US, its much more favorable to stay in a more capitalistic country. Not to mention if your wife is American. I can tell you as an American, non of us are beating down the door to live in Canada.

Id have to guess that out of the English speaking Canadians that fit that criteria, 65-70% will stay in the US.

Not many do go back to Canada, and it isn't a legitimate expectation to expect someone to return just because that is where they came from originally.

 

[cagney]

I don't think that many in Canada begrudge Parise for playing for USA. As you say, he was raised there. Some people may wish that J.P. Parise had returned home and raised his son, but that isn't what happened. The bigger issue for people is when a player was trained primarily in one country, and then represents another.

The important thing is that the IIHF rules regarding dual-citizens are set up to make your last sentence the priority. They want national teams to reflect the development program of the country they represent.

Obviously the US has benefited heavily from recruiting Canadian trained players but they've historically managed to retain dual-citizens who've been raised in the US as well. It seems there's an emerging trend of US raised and developed duals who are interested in playing for Canada. It's a recruiting battle the US could end up losing if that trend continues as Canada can absorb losses better than the US can.

It should be noted that with the globalization of the NHL over the past 25 years there are likely to be more and more dual-citizens from European countries who could end up playing for the US. We've already seen it to a limited degree but in the upcoming years there are already a number of Swedish and Russian duals who could end up representing the US.

 

[chunkylover53]

personally i've always been of the opinion that people should just play for whatever country they were born in

would make things less confusing and just feels "right" to me

That doesn't make sense really. Sean Day was born in Belgium to Canadian parents who traveled for business a lot, but he doesn't even have Belgium citizenship due to their rules. You have similar situations with other players. For some players it not even about identity, in the case of Hull and Pominville who simply wanted a chance to play.

 

[New User Name]

Not many do go back to Canada, and it isn't a legitimate expectation to expect someone to return just because that is where they came from originally.

Then why do American players go back?

When players were paid next to nothing most returned home after retiring.
Today with million dollar contracts most stay in the US.

 

[JackSlater]

The important thing is that the IIHF rules regarding dual-citizens are set up to make your last sentence the priority. They want national teams to reflect the development program of the country they represent.

Obviously the US has benefited heavily from recruiting Canadian trained players but they've historically managed to retain dual-citizens who've been raised in the US as well. It seems there's an emerging trend of US raised and developed duals who are interested in playing for Canada. It's a recruiting battle the US could end up losing if that trend continues as Canada can absorb losses better than the US can.

It should be noted that with the globalization of the NHL over the past 25 years there are likely to be more and more dual-citizens from European countries who could end up playing for the US. We've already seen it to a limited degree but in the upcoming years there are already a number of Swedish and Russian duals who could end up representing the US.

I don't believe that the IIHF does a particularly good job of ensuring that players represent the nation that developed them. This is particularly true for lower level nations in Europe who will sometimes use a North American player who played in their domestic league for years. I have no idea why citizenship should even be connected to hockey.

USA benefits most from the situation, and presumably always will, but I'm not sure how many players they can keep from Europe. Many European players seem to return home to Europe and players like Tikhonov or Nylander seem to want to represent their father's nation. I suspect that European players put fr more emphasis on retaining their culture in the United States than do Canadian players.

Then why do American players go back?

When players were paid next to nothing most returned home after retiring.
Today with million dollar contracts most stay in the US.

I suspect that patriotism is the primary reason that many American players return. I highly doubt that the quality of life for a millionaire is significantly different in Vancouver than in St. Louis or wherever else. I can't think of anything else.

In the past, the players had to return and work after their NHL careers. It helped to go back somewhere where you had built in roots, and also where being a former hockey player afforded you a certain level of fame. Now, if a Canadian player retires in the United States, has an American wife and American kids, there really isn't any need to go back to Canada if they are already happy.

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

How many Canadian hockey professionals that actually spend several years playing in the US and make a significant amount of money return to live full-time in Canada? If you accumulated assets in the US, its much more favorable to stay in a more capitalistic country. Not to mention if your wife is American. I can tell you as an American, non of us are beating down the door to live in Canada.

Id have to guess that out of the English speaking Canadians that fit that criteria, 65-70% will stay in the US.

Actually Canada has been voted to be more economically freer than the USA

http://capitalistcreations.com/when-it-comes-to-being-entrepreneur-friendly-canada-whoops-the-us/
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=2147483734

 

[Samsquanch]

Kessel lives in the US during the off season. I think most American players playing in Canada do.

I think most American NBA, MLB and CFL and NHL players have a temporary home in Canada and permanent one in the US.

Contrast that to Canadian players in the US, permanent in the US and some have a temporary one in Canada.

We all know what Antonio Davis, the former Raptor said about his kids going to school in Canada. Then there was Steve Francis of the Vancouver Grizzlies who refused to play in Canada.

Americans are far more patriotic than Canadians. It's starts in kindergarten with the pledge of allegiance. American history is prominent in US schools. The good, well behaved, morally right Patriots vs the Big bad British
Drive down any street in the US, chances are you'll see American flags galore, especially in middle class areas. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT before someone accuses me of being anti-American.
Drive down any street in Canada chances are you won't see a Canadian flag.

I remember reading about an American player playing for Edmonton who sent his wife home when she was due so the baby would be born in the states. Not sure if true or BS.

So, in summary. Most American players playing in Canada have a permanent home in the US and retire in the US.

Canadian players playing in the US have a permanent home in the states with some having temporary homes (cottages) in Canada but retire in the US.

European players playing in North America usually go back home after they retire.

This years USNTDP has I think 4 or 5 players with Canadian roots.

I recall someone saying that if you have lots of $$$ the US with their gated communities and excellent health care and private schools is the place to be. Might be true.

Maybe there's a lack of patriotism in southern ontario, but I can assure you the Canadian flag fly's proudly everywhere in my city. We're proud Canadians, and just because we might not be as "loud" as the Americans in some regards, we're equally as happy to be where we are and who we are.

And FYI, we have the Muskoka's which is possibly the most desirable cottage country in the world for the biggest celebrities. It's just a couple hours south of myself, but essentially the same terrain around here anyways. Its like this everywhere in Ontario for the most part.

If you like camping/cottages and outdoorsy stuff, then Canada is superb place to be. and I see no benefit to living in the USA in the offseason (winter is a different conversation though ).

And its not a problem that Canadians chose to live in the states afterwards, chances are it's because they have roots in whatever city it is they're settling in. Its all about what you value more. Some of us prefer a safer, slower pace of life. If that's not your bag, and you like fancy restaurants and spending money, then chances are the USA is a more desirable place to be.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

The only American players who stayed in Canada I can think of are Joel Otto and Craig Conroy

 

[londonHK]

I don't think that many in Canada begrudge Parise for playing for USA. As you say, he was raised there. Some people may wish that J.P. Parise had returned home and raised his son, but that isn't what happened.

I certainly don't begrudge him his choice. He grew up as an American - it would be weird if he chose to play for Canada.

However, I do wonder if part of why Canadians don't generally care about this sort of thing (i.e. someone like Parise playing for America) is because we have more than enough top-notch hockey players whereas, if more and more top-notch hockey players were of other nationalities and there were fewer Canadian superstars, maybe we would resent it more when someone has a choice between Canada and another country and chooses the other country. Or maybe Canadians just don't care as much because Canada isn't really a nationalistic country (patriotic, yes; nationalistic, no), so Canadians are perhaps not that offended when someone chooses another country over Canada. I'm not saying any of these theories are right though - just throwing some speculation out there.

The bigger issue for people is when a player was trained primarily in one country, and then represents another.

Yeah, I do admit that this kind of thing bothers me a bit. It's one thing to choose the country where you grew up and developed over the country where you were born but didn't spend much time in and have no emotional ties to, but a whole other thing to ditch the country that you grew up and developed in and that gave you all the opportunities you've had in your lifetime for some other country that you have nothing but a nominal tie to.

I understand why athletes do it (for example, a chance to go to the Olympics that you otherwise would not have) but I have to say that it always makes me think less of the athletes who do it (not that they care what I think, heh). This isn't because I have a problem with multiple citizenships and using a certain citizenship that you have to get you ahead in life (I don't have a problem with this at all in ordinary circumstances for regular people trying to get a job or something that is not related to national identity), but because these athletes are putting on a national team uniform and representing a country, I tend to believe that there should be some sense of connection and loyalty to the country that they're suiting up for.

That said, if an athlete chooses a country other than the one that they have real emotional ties to, at the very least, I think they should stick with it no matter what and not jump ship when a "better" opportunity presents itself.

The only problem I have with this situation is when players try for one team, get cut then decide to go play for the other team. I have no problem with them choosing but once you do, at least commit all the way through.

I 100% agree. If you're going to actively pick a national team to be a part of, you should stick with it!

 

[chunkylover53]

The only problem I have with this situation is when players try for one team, get cut then decide to go play for the other team. I have no problem with them choosing but once you do, at least commit all the way through.

What about the opposite scenario? Where they are get their chance/ are guranteed their opportunity but switch? eg. Olesiak