Proposal: TBL-BUF (Off-Season, Pre-Draft)

[DFC]

This makes no sense, Tampa will clear capspace regardless, the question is if you want the asset or not. If you don't want Miller, someone else will guaranteed. If no one wants Callahan we'll buy him out, Point gets resigned in any scenario, not sure how that was even in question.

This. We're gonna clear the space one way or another. If teams don't want to benefit from it, that's on them. We're basically having a giveaway party, and we have people saying, "Well, I'd rather not take advantage of your assets, because I don't want to be the team helping you, even though somebody's obviously going to do it."

Whoever wants to benefit in this is going to benefit. It's not like TB can't clear its problems without Buffalo. It's only a matter of if Buffalo wants to be the team to take advantage of the free 60 point player we're giving away.

 

[DFC]

I just don't think he'd have that type of production here...unless he's on Eichels line and i think we can put almost anyone opposite of Eichel-Skinner and have them be productive.

It's more of a personal preference sort of thing. Im looking at that 1st more as currency to buy something that fits better than use the pick...either a D or winger in a different mold.

Miller's production has come from a bottom-six role and alternating between PP units. He will definitely produce on another team, where he'll be getting bigger minutes.

 

[AndreRoy]

Lets find a way to include Foote in this deal...

Let’s not.

 

[CupsOverCash]

This. We're gonna clear the space one way or another. If teams don't want to benefit from it, that's on them. We're basically having a giveaway party, and we have people saying, "Well, I'd rather not take advantage of your assets, because I don't want to be the team helping you, even though somebody's obviously going to do it."

Whoever wants to benefit in this is going to benefit. It's not like TB can't clear its problems without Buffalo. It's only a matter of if Buffalo wants to be the team to take advantage of the free 60 point player we're giving away.

I think both Callahan and Miller will be gone from TB next year. Buffalo fans shouldnt be surprised if Callahan is on their roster next year. I heard something about him wanting to go there as a UFA a few years back before he signed in TB. So you gotta think they are on his list. Also even if TB buys him out wouldnt be surprised to see him go to Buffalo either way. Miller is a different guy. Unless we trade him with a player like Callahan to Buffalo, I dont see us trading Miller alone to a division rival like that.
He would definitely help Buffalo's depth. Young player like that would be a big help to their core. Would probably send him out west.

 

[DFC]

I think both Callahan and Miller will be gone from TB next year. Buffalo fans shouldnt be surprised if Callahan is on their roster next year. I heard something about him wanting to go there as a UFA a few years back before he signed in TB. So you gotta think they are on his list. Also even if TB buys him out wouldnt be surprised to see him go to Buffalo either way. Miller is a different guy. Unless we trade him with a player like Callahan to Buffalo, I dont see us trading Miller alone to a division rival like that.
He would definitely help Buffalo's depth. Young player like that would be a big help to their core. Would probably send him out west.

I would give a discount to any team willing to take Callahan though, for sure, so yeah, I think you might be right that the reason for this to work is that Buffalo is likely on Callahan's list.

The rumors you're remembering were that Buffalo was considered our biggest competition when signing Callahan. It's assumed NY area teams would be on Callahan's list, but nobody knows for sure.

But yeah, not sure I'd deal Miller on his own to Buffalo, I guess. Maybe if their offer blew away any western team's.

 

[Snippit]

I'd be interested in Miller...just don't want Callahan involved

 

[AndreRoy]

Lmao, no. Scoring depth can be acquired in various ways. Trading away 1st rounders isn't the only way, we literally were in this position in 2015 and did exactly what you said. Traded 1sts and prospects for NOW players like ROR, Kane, Bogo and Lehner, look where that brought us. Keeping your picks, drafting, developing, having a constant flow of cheap ELC's coming into the line up is how you secure long term contention.

Why am I explaining this to a Tampa fan? This is literally your model. Buffalo isn't a piece away, they aren't even 2 pieces away. They need to be patient. JT Miller is good, but those picks offer an opportunity to have another wave of high end young talent enterring the league while Eichel, Reinhart, Skinner , Risto and Dahlin are earning big bucks.

Scoring depth and additional forwards in the middle six don't cost 1st round picks, even if they're late. We can get Brassard, we can try for guys like Pageau or Tierney, we could use our deeper pool of prospects as currency along with other, later picks like we did in the Skinner deal. There are options and the ones that involve Buffalo keeping their 1st round draft picks is the one I want to go with.

This Lightning fan respects your logic. Miller is a good complementary player but his playoff resume is unimpressive and while he’s shown an ability to score on any line he’s still not the kind of guy who will really drive play for you. He’s the sort of player you look to pick up if you’re a piece away, which we all agree the Sabres are not at this point. But he’s not the sort of player you look to build around. And from our perspective as has been discussed in previous threads we can probably get more for Miller from another team, even if the Sabres were interested in him. So I agree we don’t make great trading partners regarding Miller.

As far as Callahan is concerned he’s a fine bottom six player and penalty killer who is drastically overpaid. With 50% retention he arguably has positive value but at full price he’s going to require an incentive to move. If Buffalo isn’t planning to compete for a Cup next season it obviously makes no sense for them to take him on without at least some incentive, but if they have the cap and roster space to spare it wouldn’t be the worst idea in the world for them to add some leadership for a season and get something out of it in the process - the same reason you don’t want to give up a first for Miller also argues for adding a future or two at zero asset cost if practical to do so. The question (assuming Buffalo has the cap and roster space to even consider the idea) is whether or not there is a level of retention and incentive that would work for both teams, and at this point neither side has sufficient information to make that evaluation (for instance we won’t know how much if any of Cally’s salary we’ll need to clear until we see what Point wants.)

There’s also the argument of not wanting to help a divisional rival clear cap space, but considering Callahan will be off our books completely in a year anyway and that he won’t be the difference between us signing Point or not IMO the benefit in adding a future or two (while subtracting the same from Tampa) outweighs the short term help you’d be giving us. Is it really worth turning down a piece or two that could potentially help you for years against every team just to stick us with a minor annoyance in a year you’re not seriously planning to compete anyway? I’m not sure it is. But of course if you don’t have the cap space or have plans for that roster spot then it doesn’t make sense for you.

 

[lifeisruff]

I'm intrigued. I'll have to think about this a little bit more later on.

Callahan comes off the books at the same time Reinhart is going to get a raise. And a year before Mittlestadt and Dahlin's second contract right?

The deal would probably need to be contingent on Buffalo getting out from underneath Berglund's contract too.

 

[Aavvaa]

You know how many first round picks the Lightning have made in the last 10 years that are still on the team? Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy, Koekkoek, and Foote. We have had 11 picks in the first round in the last 10 years and retained less than half. Koekkoek is probably on his way out this year too. We have traded down first round picks to pick up other picks during the drafts also. Tampa has built their team on late picks, undrafted signings, and timely trades for young players who are just about to hit their stride. Turning down Miller because he doesn't "fit" Buffalo is strange, considering he is exactly the right age, right type of player, in a favourable position for Buffalo, and gives them flexibility in the top 6.

This isn't my point again, you guys are focusing on the wrong parts of my argument.

The Sabres aren't in a position to move draft picks for players, especially a player like Miller who imo is no more than a complimentary piece.

At this point, the Sabres have their Stamkos and Hedman (Eichel, Dahlin) what they need is to continue to develop and draft more players that can come in on cheap contracts and contribute, like the Lightning have had. Tampa has only made a move involving trading draft capital for a helpful player now, when they were competitive and had a wealth of younger players contributing.

The McDonagh trade, the Coburn trade. Those deals were made when Tampa had an argument to be genuine cup contenders. Buffalo is not that, at least not yet. Miller would be a perfect fit NOW, and would be a great player to add. But the Sabres simply aren't in that position, at least IMO.

They need to see what they have in Rochester first and foremost (Smith, Goalofsson, Asplund, Nylander, etc..) and they have more picks to keep adding to that. In two or three years, maybe the Sabres could be in a position to move future assets for an improvement now.

Unless Buffalo can get a young NHL player that will be a core piece, then I don't see them moving their 1sts. Miller is nice, but at the end of the day, he would just be a good complimentary piece. I'd rather take our chances with the picks and see if we can strike gold, or just simply add productive players on ELC deals. I trust this scouting staff to be able to add really good players with those picks, and we can solve the hole Miller would fill without giving up a 1st and taking on Callahan, that's all my argument is.

 

[DJN21]

Let’s not.

okay then....I wasn't talking to you lol.

Miller isn't a big enough upgrade for the Sabres to push them into contention and while I'd love to add Cally for personal reasons lets be honest here...hes not a plus in any trade and the Sabres don't need to help tampa by any means. Its a pure hypothetical deal here and we know it. If the Sabres want Foote back how does that alter this deal?

Callahan, Miller, Foote
for
a first, guhle, ?? to make cap work?

 

[CupsOverCash]

okay then....I wasn't talking to you lol.

Miller isn't a big enough upgrade for the Sabres to push them into contention and while I'd love to add Cally for personal reasons lets be honest here...hes not a plus in any trade and the Sabres don't need to help tampa by any means. Its a pure hypothetical deal here and we know it. If the Sabres want Foote back how does that alter this deal?

Callahan, Miller, Foote
for
a first, guhle, ?? to make cap work?

Hes right though. We wouldnt put Foote in a deal for McDonagh or Karlsson we wont just to get rid of Callahan.

 

[DFC]

This isn't my point again, you guys are focusing on the wrong parts of my argument.

The Sabres aren't in a position to move draft picks for players, especially a player like Miller who imo is no more than a complimentary piece.

At this point, the Sabres have their Stamkos and Hedman (Eichel, Dahlin) what they need is to continue to develop and draft more players that can come in on cheap contracts and contribute, like the Lightning have had. Tampa has only made a move involving trading draft capital for a helpful player now, when they were competitive and had a wealth of younger players contributing.

The McDonagh trade, the Coburn trade. Those deals were made when Tampa had an argument to be genuine cup contenders. Buffalo is not that, at least not yet. Miller would be a perfect fit NOW, and would be a great player to add. But the Sabres simply aren't in that position, at least IMO.

They need to see what they have in Rochester first and foremost (Smith, Goalofsson, Asplund, Nylander, etc..) and they have more picks to keep adding to that. In two or three years, maybe the Sabres could be in a position to move future assets for an improvement now.

Unless Buffalo can get a young NHL player that will be a core piece, then I don't see them moving their 1sts. Miller is nice, but at the end of the day, he would just be a good complimentary piece. I'd rather take our chances with the picks and see if we can strike gold, or just simply add productive players on ELC deals. I trust this scouting staff to be able to add really good players with those picks, and we can solve the hole Miller would fill without giving up a 1st and taking on Callahan, that's all my argument is.

There also weren't a whole lot of 60 point 26 year-olds with good term on the market basically for free though. Don't think for a second we wouldn't have cashed in on that if it had been available. Our position in 2015 is very similar to what yours is going to be next season.

 

[DFC]

okay then....I wasn't talking to you lol.

Miller isn't a big enough upgrade for the Sabres to push them into contention and while I'd love to add Cally for personal reasons lets be honest here...hes not a plus in any trade and the Sabres don't need to help tampa by any means. Its a pure hypothetical deal here and we know it. If the Sabres want Foote back how does that alter this deal?

Callahan, Miller, Foote
for
a first, guhle, ?? to make cap work?

Even assuming Callahan carries a negative, we wouldn't do this.

 

[Djp]

Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't see how this is that bad for Buffalo. JT Miller is a versatile 50+ point player with a decent contract, and is the right age. He'd be a nice boost to our middle six. I mean teams give 1st's for that type of player as a rental. I'd seriously think about trading our latest first for him with 4 years left. Callahans contract won't really affect us, especially if they retain half. He'll be off the books when Dahlin and Reinharts contrats are due.

here is the problem....

You do this deal they talked about Buffalo locks itself out of the UFA market in the summer.

 

[Aavvaa]

There also weren't a whole lot of 60 point 26 year-olds with good term on the market basically for free though. Don't think for a second we wouldn't have cashed in on that if it had been available. Our position in 2015 is very similar to what yours is going to be next season.

We don't know what we have in Rochester yet, and it's entirely possible some of those players end up eventually being close or even equal to Miller, and they wouldn't cost a 1st nor would they cost 5 million in cap and taking on Callahan's deal for a year. We have a lot of really good young players in Rochester, developing them and concentrating on the improvement of young players at the NHL level should be the priority.

There are plenty of other options to fix the Sabres 2nd and 3rd line scoring issues, and a lot of them don't involve trading away a 1st rounder. Some of those solutions may even be in Rochester or in juniors, we just don't know, and making this deal just kind of seems like rushing things at least from my end.

I wouldn't hate it and I'm in no way opposed to Botterill moving picks for the right players, like he did with Skinner. I just do't think Miller is the right guy to target, especially if Cally is attached.

 

[Djp]

Buffalo gets 2 players that upgrade their team? TB gets cap relief for next offseason.

No it doesn't....

It would upgrade the team if it was Miller and Callahan for a 3rd....its not.

The 1st will likely be a better player than Miller given the cost control this player would give later when you have Dalin, Eichel, Reinhart, and Skinner on high contracts,

Miller isn't that special. Buffalo has Nylander (top 10 pick) and Ollafsson in the minors + others that can play winger in middle sick and likely score.

You take these two contracts you are blocking them next season

 

[DFC]

It's insane that we're at a point in history where teams don't want a free 60 point player.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I wouldn't do it for Tampa. Miller is worth more than a late 1st and taking on Hunwick or Sobotka defeats the purpose of moving out Callahan. Miller will most likely hit 20 goals for the 4th straight season and over 50 points for the 3rd, he's only 26 and signed to a good deal for 4 more years. It would have to be a 1st + for him. Retaining on Callahan just to take Hunwick who would then be a 7th D making over 3.5 a bad idea. I'd also rather Callahan at 5.8 then Sobotka at 3.5 as well. Callahan will be easy to move in the off-season, will cost a 3rd at most and we take back a contract. Something like Callahan + 3rd for Beleksey + 5th from the Rangers.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

This isn't my point again, you guys are focusing on the wrong parts of my argument.

The Sabres aren't in a position to move draft picks for players, especially a player like Miller who imo is no more than a complimentary piece.

At this point, the Sabres have their Stamkos and Hedman (Eichel, Dahlin) what they need is to continue to develop and draft more players that can come in on cheap contracts and contribute, like the Lightning have had. Tampa has only made a move involving trading draft capital for a helpful player now, when they were competitive and had a wealth of younger players contributing.

The McDonagh trade, the Coburn trade. Those deals were made when Tampa had an argument to be genuine cup contenders. Buffalo is not that, at least not yet. Miller would be a perfect fit NOW, and would be a great player to add. But the Sabres simply aren't in that position, at least IMO.

They need to see what they have in Rochester first and foremost (Smith, Goalofsson, Asplund, Nylander, etc..) and they have more picks to keep adding to that. In two or three years, maybe the Sabres could be in a position to move future assets for an improvement now.

Unless Buffalo can get a young NHL player that will be a core piece, then I don't see them moving their 1sts. Miller is nice, but at the end of the day, he would just be a good complimentary piece. I'd rather take our chances with the picks and see if we can strike gold, or just simply add productive players on ELC deals. I trust this scouting staff to be able to add really good players with those picks, and we can solve the hole Miller would fill without giving up a 1st and taking on Callahan, that's all my argument is.

Doesn't Buffalo have 3 Firsts this year? Why not trade the lowest of the 3?

 

[DistantThunderRep]

No it doesn't....

It would upgrade the team if it was Miller and Callahan for a 3rd....its not.

The 1st will likely be a better player than Miller given the cost control this player would give later when you have Dalin, Eichel, Reinhart, and Skinner on high contracts,

Miller isn't that special. Buffalo has Nylander (top 10 pick) and Ollafsson in the minors + others that can play winger in middle sick and likely score.

You take these two contracts you are blocking them next season

You hope one of your 1sts end up a player like Miller. This is a proven consistent 50 point player, 20 goal scorer, who is signed for his prime. You would hope your lottery ticket ends up being that. Especially by the look of it, 2 of your 3 first round picks will be in the 20's.

This kind of HF circle jerk of all first round picks are a golden ticket needs to die. You know how hard it is to find a consistent 20 goal scorer in the league? Are you just so used to the top 10 "guaranteed" top prospect that you forget you guys might end up with a low pick because you guys are doing good this year?

Tampa is only trying to recoup a pick we traded to NYR, and with that pick hopefully we get a player like Miller or a competent NHL player.

 

[Beerz]

It's insane that we're at a point in history where teams don't want a free 60 point player.

But its not free.

And He isn't exactly a 60 point player either

 

[DistantThunderRep]

But its not free.

And He isn't exactly a 60 point player either

But he is a 20 Goal scorer that gets right up to 60 points. He hasn't broke it yet. He was at 58 last season and 56 the season before.

 

[tsujimoto74]

It's insane that we're at a point in history where teams don't want a free 60 point player.

Since when is giving up a 1st and taking on a cap dump "free"? Buffalo would be both giving substantial value and taking on a substantial negative asset. Also, Miller has never scored 60 points.

 

[AndreRoy]

okay then....I wasn't talking to you lol.

Miller isn't a big enough upgrade for the Sabres to push them into contention and while I'd love to add Cally for personal reasons lets be honest here...hes not a plus in any trade and the Sabres don't need to help tampa by any means. Its a pure hypothetical deal here and we know it. If the Sabres want Foote back how does that alter this deal?

Callahan, Miller, Foote
for
a first, guhle, ?? to make cap work?

We aren’t trading Foote just to move Callahan. Don’t be absurd.

 

[Sky04]

I just don't think he'd have that type of production here...unless he's on Eichels line and i think we can put almost anyone opposite of Eichel-Skinner and have them be productive.

It's more of a personal preference sort of thing. Im looking at that 1st more as currency to buy something that fits better than use the pick...either a D or winger in a different mold.

Miller is not playing on either of the 2 top lines, he's been producing by himself on the bottom 9 like he was in New York, when he was with Kucherov and Stamkos he was a PPG player but his utility is better suited giving us more depth.