Proposal: TBL-BUF (Off-Season, Pre-Draft)

[howkie]

A cap dump which some fans have suggested that we retain 50% of Callahan not to mention that if it was done in the summer he will have a year left. Not as bad as some people are making it out to be.

Do you think Buffalo will help you resign Point with a fair deal? Doubt it, if you want a fair deal, you have to look out west….

I suggest, offer that package to Arizona for Crouse, they will take it asap

 

[Leonardo87]

Buffalo is on Callahan's list. Hopefully Buffalo can give him more ice time than 12 mins and include some PP time. Could easily see him produce around a .50 clip again. Tampa's depth has pushed him into a limited shutdown role not really his play. Still his production has been pretty good given his role and has been excellent on the PK and defense. He should get one more run at the cup in Tampa this year, and then next year, can go to a contender, and Buffalo would be a good fit. If Tampa retains some of his salary it would be an excellent deal for Buffalo and help both teams, and be a win for the player as well, since he has residence there.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

They take a capdump and give up what Millers is worth at maximum, so yeah, not enough

Did we add his NTC kicks in next summer aswell?

Only 8 teams, but still it is a value decrese..

Here is the thing. Callahan right now is effective. Probably the best he's played in years. I don't actually want to let him go, he's been great this season on the bottom line. Is he overpaid by a country mile? Hell yes. But just because he's overpaid, doesn't make him useless. I guess that's where the difference is any trade we make with Callahan, we see some base value in him but we can't afford to retain salary to move him.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

So the question is, is JT Miller @5.2 -4 years worth a late 1st and a 3 million dollar cap dump for 1 year. I may be goofy, but I think it's pretty close. Is Miller not as good as I think or something? Maybe Tampa throws in a draft pick?

Miller is that good. But it's people who want to low ball it because of Callahan being attached. People think Callahan = trash because of salary and our situation. He isn't trash, he's playing the best he has in years since the hip surgeries, he's just overpaid.

 

[BFLO]

Miller fills a huge hole in Buffalos middle 6, which is also the Sabres major weakness this season. I think most Buffalo fans are gun-shy on pulling the trigger on a "speed up the rebuild" trade like this after the Murray fiasco. But... this could really speed things up.

 

[Leonardo87]

Miller is that good. But it's people who want to low ball it because of Callahan being attached. People think Callahan = trash because of salary and our situation. He isn't trash, he's playing the best he has in years since the hip surgeries, he's just overpaid.

People call Callahan trash, destined to the LTIR, a POS as of recently, an albatross, and etc. No he is still a very effective player, excellent on the PK and defense, but is overpaid for his current role. A team with not as much depth as Tampa can easily give him a few more mins a game, and he would be even more productive. I just don't understand why people think Tampa needs to add the kitchen sink just to move him. Heck, think he has more value than Val Filppula had when they moved him.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

Thing is, if Tampa gets capspace, they can resign Point easier, why should Buffalo do that, they win more by having Tampa not be able to resign Point

Yeah but if it's not Buffalo, it will probably be someone. Miller's a good player and someone will give a first for him, might as well be us and make Buffalo better. Of course if Tampa calls, I'd try and get the best deal possible. If they called with this trade, I'd ask for thier 2nd round pick, and settle for their 3rd if possible.

 

[DFC]

TB would clear, at minimum, $7.35m in cap space for next season (and still have the ability to squeeze a bit more in cap savings via buy out, assignment to the AHL or retention in a trade) in the scenarios I presented.

Sure, it's not the $11m that could be gained by trading Miller and Callahan separately and not taking any salary back or retaining any money but how realistic is that? If you're already thinking, as I do, that moving Callahan means some amount of retention and/or a contract coming back, then there's really little difference to justify a preference one way or the other.

It depends on whether or not we could pay an even bigger premium to get somebody to take his whole contract. It's only one year, and we have to weigh it against buying him out. The difference between 7.35 and 11 could easily be the difference between keeping and losing Anton Stralman, or some other key player. So I think the priority has to be moving Callahan's entire year's salary, even if it means we have to pay a big price. Because if we're retaining, or taking a contract back, does that have much benefit over buying him out? Considering we'd keep the asset required to move him.

Like I said, I do think the value is good here, but I think it should be a last resort. I'd rather explore separate moves. If nobody's willing to take Callahan's salary for the year, with whatever pick/prospect we can offer, then yeah, Option B becomes "move as much of his salary as possible."

Miller should be easier, I think. It's not often a team more/less gives away a 25 year-old 60ish point player signed throguh his prime. I don't think we'd have to take anybody back for him. It would be similar to a team acquiring a UFA, but on a better contract, with a somewhat minor asset (low 1st, at best, I'm thinking) going the other way.

 

[is the answer jesus]

I think Callahan is still a servicable 3rd liner, but 5.8 million for that? Terrible. That's why no one is taking that contract on without a significant asset coming along with him.

 

[DFC]

People call Callahan trash, destined to the LTIR, a POS as of recently, an albatross, and etc. No he is still a very effective player, excellent on the PK and defense, but is overpaid for his current role. A team with not as much depth as Tampa can easily give him a few more mins a game, and he would be even more productive. I just don't understand why people think Tampa needs to add the kitchen sink just to move him. Heck, think he has more value than Val Filppula had when they moved him.

Probably depends how heavily a team is scouting us. Filppula had some decent numbers even if his play was not good (although it should be noted that Flip was in the midst of a bounce-back year, even if that only meant, "yeah, he's kind of useful now.").

There are a lot more risks involved in acquiring Callahan though. While Callahan's positives are pretty much a lock--defense and PK--his negatives are a much bigger risk. Mainly, that by November his season will be over because he needs another shoulder surgery or a brand new hip or something.

Still, a young team could do a lot worst than adding Callahan's influence. I just think we'll have to pay a bit to move the money.

 

[Rschmitz]

People act like they are killing themselves by adding 1 year of Callahan.

 

[DFC]

Yeah but if it's not Buffalo, it will probably be someone. Miller's a good player and someone will give a first for him, might as well be us and make Buffalo better. Of course if Tampa calls, I'd try and get the best deal possible. If they called with this trade, I'd ask for thier 2nd round pick, and settle for their 3rd if possible.

Agreed, although I don't think a mid-to-low 2nd is going to win out. Miller has no protection here, so you have to think a lot of rebuilding teams are going to like his age and his contract. So Miller should acquire us at least a high second.

Honestly, I think he goes to the highest bidder, whatever that is. Buffalo likely has the trade chips to get it done if they want him though.

One note: If Miller has a strong post-season, this could all be re-evaluated. We might see if we can get somebody to waive a NTC in that case. But, as of now, he clearly seems to be the guy on his way out.

 

[Aavvaa]

I really don't want to trade any of those 1st rounders, but JT Miller would be such a beautiful fit and would be a perfect upgrade to our middle six situation.

Not huge on Callahan, but eh. I think what's stopping me is Tim Murray PTSD and helping TB with a cap crunch. I don't know if we're getting enough back to justify basically lobbing them the room to re-sign Point. This is a good proposal because I'm completely torn.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

I think Callahan is still a servicable 3rd liner, but 5.8 million for that? Terrible. That's why no one is taking that contract on without a significant asset coming along with him.

But it would be 2.9 million for one year. Buffalo could absorb that, have Miller, and still sign Skinner and whoever else they want to. Miller would help out our secondary scoring problem. But as I said earlier, Berglund would have to be off the books.

 

[Beerz]

No thanks. I wouldn't want to pay a 1st for Miller straight up

 

[Sky04]

I really don't want to trade any of those 1st rounders, but JT Miller would be such a beautiful fit and would be a perfect upgrade to our middle six situation.

Not huge on Callahan, but eh. I think what's stopping me is Tim Murray PTSD and helping TB with a cap crunch. I don't know if we're getting enough back to justify basically lobbing them the room to re-sign Point. This is a good proposal because I'm completely torn.

Miller is an absolutely a steal because we're selling low on a big and skilled top-6 forward, Callahan has his uses but if I was an opposing team not worth helping TB out. You could find a younger, healthier 4th liner for 1/4 the price.

 

[DFC]

Buffalo is on Callahan's list. Hopefully Buffalo can give him more ice time than 12 mins and include some PP time. Could easily see him produce around a .50 clip again. Tampa's depth has pushed him into a limited shutdown role not really his play. Still his production has been pretty good given his role and has been excellent on the PK and defense. He should get one more run at the cup in Tampa this year, and then next year, can go to a contender, and Buffalo would be a good fit. If Tampa retains some of his salary it would be an excellent deal for Buffalo and help both teams, and be a win for the player as well, since he has residence there.

That's a pipe dream. He doesn't have the hands for it. A team acquiring Callahan is getting a good energy player who can kill penalties, throw a bunch of hits, and get similar players (Paquette) to follow suit. But there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that he's unlikely to ever hit double digits in goals again, and unless he's playing with Jack Eichel all the time, he won't rack up anything close to 30 assists, which is nearly what Brayden Point put up last year.

Callahan will get an okay team 25 points in a miraculous year. His value is more about leading by example in his own end.

 

[Leonardo87]

Probably depends how heavily a team is scouting us. Filppula had some decent numbers even if his play was not good (although it should be noted that Flip was in the midst of a bounce-back year, even if that only meant, "yeah, he's kind of useful now.").

There are a lot more risks involved in acquiring Callahan though. While Callahan's positives are pretty much a lock--defense and PK--his negatives are a much bigger risk. Mainly, that by November his season will be over because he needs another shoulder surgery or a brand new hip or something.

Still, a young team could do a lot worst than adding Callahan's influence. I just think we'll have to pay a bit to move the money.

Well that's why the retention of some salary would make it less risky for teams, and puts him closer to his true current value. Could even see Tampa getting a late pick in return. There are teams out there looking to upgrade their bottom 6, and PK.

 

[DFC]

I really don't want to trade any of those 1st rounders, but JT Miller would be such a beautiful fit and would be a perfect upgrade to our middle six situation.

Not huge on Callahan, but eh. I think what's stopping me is Tim Murray PTSD and helping TB with a cap crunch. I don't know if we're getting enough back to justify basically lobbing them the room to re-sign Point. This is a good proposal because I'm completely torn.

I think it depends on the alternative. Like, if some western team agrees to help TB out, it makes sense for Buffalo to come back in at that point, because TB is likely to find help either way (we have assets that are likely to make it happen), so Buffalo can come in and benefit. The big key is Buffalo is likely to be on the list of teams to which Callahan will agree to move.

So I mean, yeah, TB's going to get help one way or another. But Buffalo could be the team to make us pay through the nose on Callahan, or sell Miller lower than we'd like. It kind of goes both ways. I don't think we want to help an up-and-coming team, but it might be our best option to help ourselves.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

No thanks. I wouldn't want to pay a 1st for Miller straight up

Why? What if that pick is 26-29? You wouldn't trade that for a 50 point+, 26 year old player with term left on his contract? Seriously, what am I missing here?

 

[Djp]

Buffalo isn’t helping Tampa cap he’ll.

 

[DFC]

Well that's why the retention of some salary would make it less risky for teams, and puts him closer to his true current value. Could even see Tampa getting a late pick in return. There are teams out there looking to upgrade their bottom 6, and PK.

I think it would be worth it for us to offer a good pick, maybe even a prospect, to move the entire 5.8 rather than retaining and getting an asset back. The extra few million is going to be a huge deal to us. We have to move as much of that salary as possible, so long as the cost is lower than the player(s) we'll have to lose if we don't.

 

[Sky04]

Why? What if that pick is 26-29? You wouldn't trade that for a 50 point+, 26 year old player with term left on his contract? Seriously, what am I missing here?

Maybe he thinks he can get a 70p 22 year old center for his 1st round pick "straight up"?

 

[Leonardo87]

That's a pipe dream. He doesn't have the hands for it. A team acquiring Callahan is getting a good energy player who can kill penalties, throw a bunch of hits, and get similar players (Paquette) to follow suit. But there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that he's unlikely to ever hit double digits in goals again, and unless he's playing with Jack Eichel all the time, he won't rack up anything close to 30 assists, which is nearly what Brayden Point put up last year.

Callahan will get an okay team 25 points in a miraculous year. His value is more about leading by example in his own end.

But He's on pace for around 20 to 25 points now with this limited role. So don't see how he cannot produce a little more if given some PP time and some more ice time on another team.

 

[Aavvaa]

I think it depends on the alternative. Like, if some western team agrees to help TB out, it makes sense for Buffalo to come back in at that point, because TB is likely to find help either way (we have assets that are likely to make it happen), so Buffalo can come in and benefit. The big key is Buffalo is likely to be on the list of teams to which Callahan will agree to move.

So I mean, yeah, TB's going to get help one way or another. But Buffalo could be the team to make us pay through the nose on Callahan, or sell Miller lower than we'd like. It kind of goes both ways. I don't think we want to help an up-and-coming team, but it might be our best option to help ourselves.

Sure, but the cost for all this is a 1st round pick, which Buffalo should be using to try to get cheap ELC talent when they’re paying their own core players.

Those 1st rounders have more value to us if we draft and succesfully develop a player, than it is if we trade it for Miller. Team control and cheap ELC’s are crucial, and I’m just not sure if I want to sacrifice and opportunity at that for JT Miller and Callahan.

The helping out TB bit is more just me being petty.