GDT: TB @ Car

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,330
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The last 2 games are disappointing, but not going to over-react yet. The key is to avoid a prolonged stretch where they go pointless so have to just come out and find ways to get points the next few games.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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I am starting to sour on Peters. Looking at the offense we got out of less talented teams than this with different coaches I'm wondering if he's the right man for the job.

To find a higher scoring team than we had last year, you have to go back to the Staal/Semin era. Those would be the years when we were trying to outscore everyone because our defense was laughably horribad.

Since then, our defense and goaltending has improved dramatically. We dropped Staal and Semin, and replaced them with...?
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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Aho and Williams.

giphy.gif
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,330
102,073
I was being somewhat sarcastic, but not completely.

The lockout year was a complete fluke year and a huge abnormality, even for Staal and Semin. Heck, Tlusty had 23 goals in 48 games. The following year Staal had 61 points and Semin 42. Other than those 2, and Skinner, the line-up's next leading scorer?

Jordan Staal: 40 points
Nathan Gerbe: 36 points
Jiri Tlusty: 22 points

While Aho clearly isn't Eric Staal (60-70 point player), Williams should easily be the 40-50 point player Semin was. On top of that, Skinner today is better than Skinner then. Jordan has shown he's a 45-50 point player and Aho, Lindholm, Stempniak, TT and even Rask are superior players to Gerbe, Tlusty, Nash, Dwyer and Ruutu...who rounded out our forward group. So overall, this should be a better team offensively than back then.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,330
102,073
Swinging by to say I had a blast in here last night. It felt a little awkward because of how the way the game ended. But in any case keep your heads up. You guys are alright. Nice to meet a group that's so casual

We're only casual because we've sucked for so long that it's our only defense mechanism. I long for the day when we are good again so we can develop some sort of heated discussion with other fan bases. :laugh:

Seriously though, glad you stopped by and glad you enjoyed it.
 

Finlandia WOAT

No blocks, No slappers
May 23, 2010
24,417
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So you want a track meet where we pair Jeff Skinner, Teuvo Teravainen, Sebastian Aho against Nikita Kucherov, Steven Stamkos, Tyler Johnson?

How is that better?
And yes, this is more than a one-off gameplan because easily 75% of the teams we face can win that track meet against us. We flat out don’t have the forward talent to play that way. Peters probably wishes we did more than anyone, because he has one hell of a tall order trying to get this group over the hump without any significant new scoring talent year-over-year.


They have gone into the 3rd period 5 out of 7 games this year with a 0 or a 1 on the board. The two exceptions being the first game of the year and a skidding Edmonton team that was playing their backup.

It doesn't matter if the grinding game leads to the opposition to only score 2 goals a night average if you can't manage 2 average. And this has been a consistent problem with Peters' teams. At ES they can only score when the opposition goes into prevent. Thank Tampa for taking a page out of the Panthers playbook. But gunking up the game clearly Pejorative Slurs an already stagnant offense.

Do I want a shoot out with Tampa? No, their offense is twice ours, and they're hot right now. Do I want a shoot out with Dallas? Hell no. In light of that, I'm not concerned and see the logic behind the gunk game these past two games. So fine, let's gunk up the game and pray to the Hockey Gods that the bounces go the way we want for once.

But (I suck at being clear, so here I'm arguing against you assertion that the Hurricanes must play this way all the time) factoring in Slavin erasing the oppositions top threat, is it really so ludicrous to suggest that the roster, which has speed and passing/skating defensemen but no Ryan Murphy :( but lacks size and cyclers (outside of 4th line, you go guys!), might be better suited for trying to create scoring chances in transition than grinding it out along the boards? That doing this will drastically open up their team against most offenses to such a degree that the trade off is moot at best? I don't agree with that. The Hurricanes have defensemen who can skate and are excellent in transition and in any case, opening up their defense is a moot point when they've lost the game once the opponent scores twice.

This team blows at creating scoring chances. Here is a way they can create more scoring chances. Yes, I am well aware of why they don't do that but if this offensive pattern really is a pattern, the Hurricanes are in trouble and it's valid to question possible ways to fix that which don't include panic moves or miraculous conceptions of elite forwards.




It’s worth scrutiny because it’s a picture-perfect example of changing Hanifin’s partner only to see the new partner get burned trying to cover for him.

And therefore a picture perfect example of why changing up the pairings isn’t really the solution to Hanifin. The solution is to find him a babysitter and revisit his progress when he’s old enough to book a hotel room legally.

See, my point is more that using a goal from that context (4 seconds left of a blowout) to draw any kind of conclusion isn't really worthwhile. I guess I just have fond memories when Ruutu was a running joke because of this.

Not that I disagree with your conclusion. Until Hanifin gets better it's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Which is the same thing with line configurations. Juggling the lines isn't going to fix the root problem of a lack of forward talent.

(You really notice that when you go into opposing GDT's after Hurricane victories and the opposing fans are vituperatively arguing about whether such-and-such third liner on the second line in place of such-and-such third liner on the second line was the difference in this close 2 goal loss)
 
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Big Daddy Cane

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Feb 8, 2010
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gwWahcayrLnMkx6ye_4FkGgzIoCliuncjNlP5O7I2Foepvvgq_cvErKCrZg19jVdN1gGdMyWdfquLkEcSmsveln6B4APCpF9tLRkbXs8fLZcUl1cnraw-ygp8jkm3n2lGk0fr_s7Q89txwYhvVmOHhT7gZAD-foGAoBT2XXaKptJsEvhYc3P-fzNFWe1l4LqVPx2ELPvt5CNYuMCyM8nnQ5XG4Rx2QLmeERPNiU3_iXlo014HEPDk5m3w9Ldcwzz-grFfckiZQMGtTNEPyez8QdKOqU-hTItl60s484SCwTBBkasWm06NpmDGrcQAaCwGN4xeLB5Yk9OmMwcWyMV1_V3FfRRFLsVUFPqh4u04U-hIj-s4AW7SjVXyp0QoHO-eVe1QnYOmG8aweoG3b9-vceCwbErpf560HwAOMnuZgW2dP5GdLjnldTwwErOWJG1ETFZSYlG7kUvaLhf_F2P58COGgbcf4xVGAuLgTUFxmGJ3VwbZyevP9LC5Q0cs5ssw3G3tZ9WRcJJbNcpBqLTebJE24vfg5Vp_L0l29_j5w7NRabpLMXFjCW1WATmdW0C6ueC4FWFAubawOsBPiE6JLZpRjfeVUdJfC1VNmuVSg=w573-h407-no


What this lazy Excel pie chart shows is that the Canes were inconsistent offensively last season. 2 goals or fewer were scored in 42 of the 82 GP. We should expect a relatively similar breakdown this season; the upgrade from McGinn to Williams (assuming Stempniak draws back into the Top 9 at some point) and improvements from the young players with room to grow will only mean so much. At best, the Canes are a streaky middle of the pack offensive club, imo.
 

Stickpucker

Playmaka
Jan 18, 2014
16,266
39,505
To find a higher scoring team than we had last year, you have to go back to the Staal/Semin era. Those would be the years when we were trying to outscore everyone because our defense was laughably horribad.

Since then, our defense and goaltending has improved dramatically. We dropped Staal and Semin, and replaced them with...?

To be fair didn't Peters convert Staal from a 70 pt player to a 30 pt one?
 

Navin R Slavin

Fifth line center
Jan 1, 2011
16,369
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Durrm NC
I think you saw that run-and-gun transition style game against Edmonton. They outshot the daylights out of us, of course, but the chances we got were quality, and luckily we finished well.

I think we can, and will, play more of that style against top-heavy teams with suspect defenses.

Also: remember the emphasis that this team puts on statistics. I would strongly suspect that they're building game plans based on statistical matchups, which should vary from team to team. It'll be worth watching to see if they're playing in a notably different style versus this or that team.
 

Finlandia WOAT

No blocks, No slappers
May 23, 2010
24,417
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To be fair didn't Peters convert Staal from a 70 pt player to a 30 pt one?

To be fair I think a lot of that was Eric mentally checking out.

I think you saw that run-and-gun transition style game against Edmonton. They outshot the daylights out of us, of course, but the chances we got were quality, and luckily we finished well.

I think we can, and will, play more of that style against top-heavy teams with suspect defenses.

Also: remember the emphasis that this team puts on statistics. I would strongly suspect that they're building game plans based on statistical matchups, which should vary from team to team. It'll be worth watching to see if they're playing in a notably different style versus this or that team.

And that was an Edmonton team sans Draisaitl, which is to say, put Slavin on McJesus and then laugh at who they send out afterwards. Oh no, it's Canadian Rask!

It'll be interesting to see what the plan is for Toronto, the Leafs' d is suspect and goaltending can be iffy, neither of which describe the Lightning, but Matthews is dynamite.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,330
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To be fair didn't Peters convert Staal from a 70 pt player to a 30 pt one?

Not quite, Excluding the shortened lockout year:

10/11 (Maurice): 76 points
11/12: (Maurice/Muller): 70 points
13/14: (Muller): 61 points
14/15: (Peters): 54 points
15/16: (Peters + NYR): 39 points (33 in 63 games in CAR = 43 point pace), 6 in 20 games in NYR = 24 point pace)
16/17: (Min): 65 points

I don't dispute that Peters system affected his scoring, but it wasn't all that.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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I was being somewhat sarcastic, but not completely.

The lockout year was a complete fluke year and a huge abnormality, even for Staal and Semin.

Ok, so then to find a higher-ranked Carolina offense you need to go even farther back into history, to the Paul Maurice era. Is Paul Maurice (the original Bill Peters!) really the guy we're going to hold up as an example of what Peters is supposed to be like? Or are we talking about the Peter Laviolette era, when we had a Cup-contending roster to work with?

I'm just confused at the idea that we had a similarly talented team with a higher-flying offense under other coaches. When was that?

but no Ryan Murphy :(

*gasp* You've found the real problem!

But to your larger point... the advantage to sacrificing offense in order to hold the opponent to 2 goals to your 1 is that you're truly only a fluke deflection away from tying that game. That isn't the case in a 5-2 game, which is what a game like last night would look like if we rally opened it up. On a strategic level, a tight low-scoring game still has the chance to turn on one bounce, or one major PP, or a goalie having an off night. And the sad thing is, the way our team is currently designed, that gives us the best chance of winning.

but if this offensive pattern really is a pattern, the Hurricanes are in trouble

:nod: The Hurricanes are in trouble. We cannot survive Aho and Lindholm and Rask and Turbo all falling through the basement floor. Currently we have one player in the lineup who has broken the 60 point barrier this decade, and only one other player who has scored more than 50 points in any year of his career. The assumption was that we would be getting that kind of scoring from young guys starting around now. If the four of them are all in for a down season, we are going to have an abysmal year. There's really no way around it. They capital-n Need to step up starting ASAP before we get into a hole we can't get out of.


To be fair didn't Peters convert Staal from a 70 pt player to a 30 pt one?

Which Staal are we talking about here?
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,330
102,073
Ok, so then to find a higher-ranked Carolina offense you need to go even farther back into history, to the Paul Maurice era. Is Paul Maurice (the original Bill Peters!) really the guy we're going to hold up as an example of what Peters is supposed to be like? Or are we talking about the Peter Laviolette era, when we had a Cup-contending roster to work with?

I'm just confused at the idea that we had a similarly talented team with a higher-flying offense under other coaches. When was that?

I guess I mis-understood your post, or you misunderstood and/or are reading way too much into mine.

You said "We dropped Staal and Semin, and replaced them with...?". That's what I was responding to. To me it implied that you were saying this version of the Canes should be a worse offensively than that version of the Canes because we lost E. Staal and Semin and didn't replace them. I was simply saying that it could be argued that losing the 60 point Eric Staal and a 45 point Semin, could be offset by what I posted (Skinner and Jordan being better, the addition of Williams, and Aho, Lindholm, TT, Stempniak, Rask instead of Gerbe, Nash, Tlusty, Dwyer, and the likes filling out the line-up.

Thus, it could be argued that this team SHOULD be better offensively than back then based on the talent through the top 9, even without Staal and Semin. Of course, that Talent has to perform at least to the level of last year, which they currently aren't.

I wasn't implying (or at least not trying to imply) that we have the talent and should we be playing a high flying style of game right now. Based on the terrible offense we had back under Muller, we didn't have the horses to do it either.
 

These Are The Days

I need about tree fiddy
May 17, 2014
35,459
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We're only casual because we've sucked for so long that it's our only defense mechanism. I long for the day when we are good again so we can develop some sort of heated discussion with other fan bases. :laugh:

Seriously though, glad you stopped by and glad you enjoyed it.

It's ironic because I long for the day that I can debate the finer points of BBQ with my fellow Lightning fans and impersonate a rambling drunkard. The Lightning fans take things way... WAAAYYYYY too seriously sometimes. We've got a couple who keep it easy there but they're not gonna join in the way you guys do.

And for what it's worth you guys deserved an OT. I don't know what the hell Peters was thinking pulling Darling with that much time left. By that point I said "Crap I better get out of here. I don't know how to play off a decision this bad. I'll come back tomorrow and thank them for a good time"

I might even just come back for a non Canes/Lightning game
 
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tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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You said "We dropped Staal and Semin, and replaced them with...?". That's what I was responding to. To me it implied that you were saying this version of the Canes should be a worse offensively than that version of the Canes because we lost E. Staal and Semin and didn't replace them. I was simply saying that it could be argued that losing the 60 point Eric Staal and a 45 point Semin, could be offset by what I posted (Skinner and Jordan being better, the addition of Williams, and Aho, Lindholm, TT, Stempniak, Rask instead of Gerbe, Nash, Tlusty, Dwyer, and the likes filling out the line-up.

The season in question (12-13) was the lockout. Semin and Staal were PPG and better, respectively.

That was the last time the Hurricanes iced a better offensive team than what we had last year — because that was when we had two top offensive players performing near the peak of their capacity*.

Now we have one such player (Skinner) and I’m not seeing who the second guy is supposed to be. Jordan Staal? Aho? Teravainen?

Until someone else steps up and *literally* doubles their current level of impact, I’m not seeing any justification for expecting our offense to improve over the past 5 years of results. It was one thing in the offseason when we assumed Aho would be flying around looking like a 60-point guy, and that Rask would be good for 20 goals. But those guys haven’t shown up to play, so what we can expect is to have one of the league’s worst offensive teams again.

* for half a season, before they could cool off
 
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sheriff bart

Where are the white women at
Nov 11, 2010
2,755
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That’s exactly the issue so far this season. We’ve got a line’s worth of top-6 forwards in deep slumps. Even just an extra goal apiece from each of those guys (which again, goes back to crossbars and the sometimes uncontrollable narrowness of victory in this league) would have us in a much more positive situation.

At the end of the day, jiggering around with the lines or D pairings won’t matter if Aho continues to play like he has the yips, if Rask is skating like he’s trying to digest a Cookout tray, if Lindholm can’t just flat out get a break and put the puck into the actual net. If those guys won’t produce, we can’t make the playoffs, period. Everything else becomes academic at that point.

...or as I have begun calling them, the Canes currently in the witness protection program
 
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Negan4Coach

Fantastic and Stochastic
Aug 31, 2017
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It's almost like I wrote a post on the last page saying exactly that....

I'm wondering whether or not what they have is really suited to trying to grind out goals in the offensive zone. They don't have big bodies, nor guys who are excellent cyclers, nor do they have guys that can win in isolation when the cycle creates those matchups, but they do have guys who are quick and defensemen who are good at picking apart the opposing defense in transition. If you want to say this was the gameplan against a superior team, fine, but grind-it-out hockey isn't a one off instance, it's Peters' specialty.

But yes, at the end of the day it's a case of turd polishing one big turd of an offense.



I see what you're saying.




FWIW, I don't see the point in scrutinizing the final goal in a blowout after the losing team gave up.

They gave up a PP goal against an excellent PP team, and a goal after the League leading scorer/1st line center of the opposition was out on the ice against our third pairing because God knows why (as in, I really don't know why, not that anyone in particular screwed up).



Mats Sundin Overated

I agree with your first point- but Peters has been the coach now for a while, and it would stand to reason that RF would have been able to aquire folks who fit Peter's game plan, as he's indicated in the past. Why u no draft cycle grinders?

"We are who we thought we were."
 
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