GDT: TB @ Car

[the halleJOKEL]

the echo chamber around hanifin's poor performance is strong and perplexing. he really has not looked that bad, especially considering his age. getting major pitkanen vibes from all of you regarding him

 

[sheriff bart]

I'm having difficulty blaming the state of the Canes on anyone on defense. 4 losses, and 3 of them were 2-1 games (TB was a 2-1 game until the goalie quit). It's kind of hard to win in this league scoring 1 goal.

Score an effin goal once in a while

 

[The Stranger]

...there he goes again...he's off in, what I like to call, "Noah-World"...

 

[Wolfpuck]

the echo chamber around hanifin's poor performance is strong and perplexing. he really has not looked that bad, especially considering his age. getting major pitkanen vibes from all of you regarding him

Pitkanen was #25. Hanifin is #5. He's 1/5th the player Pitkanen was.

 

[tarheelhockey]

the echo chamber around hanifin's poor performance is strong and perplexing. he really has not looked that bad, especially considering his age. getting major pitkanen vibes from all of you regarding him

 

[GoldiFox]

the echo chamber around hanifin's poor performance is strong and perplexing. he really has not looked that bad, especially considering his age. getting major pitkanen vibes from all of you regarding him

The numbers from this year have already been posted? Hanifin is letting in goals at roughly double the rate of all other D. A continuation of last year and the year before.

I don't think anyone blames the defense for the top-9 being filled with plugs and underachievers. Scoring goals has been the issue. I think there is a perceived recent trend of offensively inept teams trading D for Forwards. Shouldn't be a surprise that the D comes up as a solution to fixing the F corps when you see teams like Nashville or NJ finding success.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I posted in another thread about the Hanifin hate and the Fluery love fest. You guys are embarrassing yourselves thinking Fluery is ready for a top 4 role, or that the coaching staff views that as a possibility. He’s played 13 minutes a night against the worst possible competition, has been on the ice for zero goals for and 3 against (2 at even strength). He has been an adequate 6th defenseman. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Joe McGrath]

The numbers from this year have already been posted? Hanifin is letting in goals at roughly double the rate of all other D. A continuation of last year and the year before.

I don't think anyone blames the defense for the top-9 being filled with plugs and underachievers. Scoring goals has been the issue. I think there is a perceived recent trend of offensively inept teams trading D for Forwards. Shouldn't be a surprise that the D comes up as a solution to fixing the F corps when you see teams like Nashville or NJ finding success.

He’s also contributing to the offense scoring goals roughly double the rate of any other defenseman.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I think Hanifin is pretty damned good. Not Pronger-level good. I just don't think he projects to that. But he's good. Very good for a 20 year old.

I also happen to think he's our best chance at getting some top-6 help, which we badly need, and I think our D can survive without him.

 

[GoldiFox]

He’s also contributing to the offense scoring goals roughly double the rate of any other defenseman.

Which is why the Canes would be stupid to trade him right now. When Faulk's shot isn't working or being schemed against, Hanifin has been the only D who can work an offensive zone with any skill. Also the only one who can seem to get shots through on a regular basis. I said earlier, the offensive improvement makes him much more palatable for me. He's also been good in transitional defense by my view. Still a disaster in an established defensive zone.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think Hanifin is pretty damned good. Not Pronger-level good. I just don't think he projects to that. But he's good. Very good for a 20 year old.

I don't think he's Pronger-level good, but I didn't think Hedman was Pronger-level good either at this age.

My takeaway from seeing numerous young defensemen being given up on too early, is that you find a guy with the raw material (which Hanifin does appear to have) and sit patiently with him till he's 25. At worst you get a Bogosian or something.

 

[MinJaBen]

Hanifin's situation is complicated. For a number four defenseman on a team, his performance is fine. For most 20 year old defensemen, he is doing well above average in his progression from draft to the NHL. However, he was taken #5 in a very deep draft and there are several forwards and defensemen taken after him that are playing as good or better than he is right now, so it is not surprising to find that there is some "buyers remorse" from fans. He also is playing in a defensive group that is well stocked with talent, and in some respects he compares unfavorably against those other players. Finally, he does have some effort issues, including being pasted to the bench by the coach in the second period of a recent game.

 

[MinJaBen]

At worst you get a Bogosian or something.

Well, is that the worst? To me, the worst is having someone offer a trade for Hanifin with them valuing Hanifin much higher than "Bogosian or something", not taking that trade because we want him to become Hedman, then getting Bogosian and now only being able to trade him at Bogosian level value.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Hanifin's situation is complicated. For a number four defenseman on a team, his performance is fine. For most 20 year old defensemen, he is doing well above average in his progression from draft to the NHL. However, he was taken #5 in a very deep draft and there are several forwards and defensemen taken after him that are playing as good or better than he is right now, so it is not surprising to find that there is some "buyers remorse" from fans. He also is playing in a defensive group that is well stocked with talent, and in some respects he compares unfavorably against those other players. Finally, he does have some effort issues, including being pasted to the bench by the coach in the second period of a recent game.

Wasn't it already known that he was the least ready d-man in the draft? Seems like a silly criticism against a guy living up to expectations.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well, is that the worst? To me, the worst is having someone offer a trade for Hanifin with them valuing Hanifin much higher than "Bogosian or something", not taking that trade because we want him to become Hedman, then getting Bogosian and now only being able to trade him at Bogosian level value.

So... trading him for what he’s actually worth rather than an epic ripoff?

 

[MinJaBen]

Wasn't it already known that he was the least ready d-man in the draft? Seems like a silly criticism against a guy living up to expectations.

I don't know that anybody said he was the least ready d-man. There was some debate as to if he or Provorov were more ready, but other than that my guess is at worst he was number two.

 

[MinJaBen]

So... trading him for what he’s actually worth rather than an epic ripoff?

Hell yes. It is not our GMs job to tell others that they are rating our players wrong. Its his job to do the best he can for our team. If another team thought Necas was the next McDavid and offered the value that would take, and you believe he is more of a Duchene level talent, you probably should make the trade.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Hell yes. It is not our GMs job to tell others that they are rating our players wrong. Its his job to do the best he can for our team. If another team thought Necas was the next McDavid and offered the value that would take, and you believe he is more of a Duchene level talent, you probably should make the trade.

I’m just saying, a fair value trade is really something to be worried about? If we have a Bogosian, we have a Bogosian. That’s not some train wreck scenario.

 

[MinJaBen]

I’m just saying, a fair value trade is really something to be worried about? If we have a Bogosian, we have a Bogosian. That’s not some train wreck scenario.

No its not. But we know there are teams that value Hanifin pretty highly and would trade pieces we need for him. If we have serious doubts he makes his potential, then maybe we should explore trading him for something we do need and are more sure of rather than wait and be disappointed.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

My theory is that Hanifin is like a Pokémon, and needs to be traded to unlock his full final form.

 

[DougieSmash]

hanifin and rask for shipachev (the best player from khl) and hunt

we upgrade top 6, we upgrade our d, everyone is happy, the world not gonna end

 

[SaskCanesFan]

I’m just saying, a fair value trade is really something to be worried about? If we have a Bogosian, we have a Bogosian. That’s not some train wreck scenario.

I think its more that we could end up with a Bogosian and still gaping hole at 1C in 5 years, or have traded a Hedman but possibly filled the 1C spot. Those are the two opposite risks, depending on if you are too cautious or too aggressive.

Hanifin turning into Bogosian isn't the worst case scenario. Missing out on a chance at a 1C and continuing to be mediocre is. It's like saying who cares if your high first round pick only turns out to be a third liner and the 50th best player from his draft. It's not that a third liner isn't acceptable, but it's a huge missed opportunity. And missing opportunities like that leads to being not good enough to make the playoffs.

That's assuming that the Canes don't have a different plan to acquire a 1C, and they have enough confidence in the rest of the young D to make Hanifin expendable.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't know that anybody said he was the least ready d-man. There was some debate as to if he or Provorov were more ready, but other than that my guess is at worst he was number two.

The Canes own write up (from MacDonald) said that Provorov was the most mature and NHL ready.

Provorov’s maturity and command of all situations in the game figure to make him perhaps the most NHL-ready defensive prospect and a top-10 pick on draft day.
“If you wanted or needed him to play next year, he’s probably pretty close to being able to do that,” MacDonald said.

IIRC, they said Wereneski was someone that needed more seasoning and Hanifin was viewed as kind of in between.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think its more that we could end up with a Bogosian and still gaping hole at 1C in 5 years, or have traded a Hedman but possibly filled the 1C spot. Those are the two opposite risks, depending on if you are too cautious or too aggressive.

Hanifin turning into Bogosian isn't the worst case scenario. Missing out on a chance at a 1C and continuing to be mediocre is. It's like saying who cares if your high first round pick only turns out to be a third liner and the 50th best player from his draft. It's not that a third liner isn't acceptable, but it's a huge missed opportunity. And missing opportunities like that leads to being not good enough to make the playoffs.

And this is EXACTLY the rationale that had Hartford move Pronger for Shanahan.

Which brings to mind — what’s the worst case trade scenario in a trade like this? It isn’t “traded Hedman but got that 1C”. It’s “traded Hedman for a resentful, declining Duchene or Tavares who turns out to be past his best years”. At which point you spend the next 20 years facepalming.

I’m not saying this is overwhelmingly likely to happen again, but it’s happened to this franchise once already.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

And this is EXACTLY the rationale that had Hartford move Pronger for Shanahan.

Which brings to mind — what’s the worst case trade scenario in a trade like this? It isn’t “traded Hedman but got that 1C”. It’s “traded Hedman for a resentful, declining Duchene or Tavares who turns out to be past his best years”. At which point you spend the next 20 years facepalming.

I’m not saying this is overwhelmingly likely to happen again, but it’s happened to this franchise once already.

Oh I agree, and I'm not pushing to trade Hanifin. I'm just saying there's risk to both approaches, and without the benefit of hindsight there isn't a right answer. It's just personal preference on what type of risk you'd rather take.