Tank Nation: Who's In?

[achtungbaby]

When Burke traded 2 firsts and a second for Kessel, our rebuild was over before it began. That kind of set back is too much and the team went into win-now mode, and we'll suffer from it for the next while

This was it in a nutshell. There was no way we were going to patiently rebuild when we didn't own our top picks for two years. It's a source of much disagreement around here. Some say that no one could have known the Leafs were going to be that bad and thus, no one knew the picks were going to be that high (some of us disagreed). Others say that of course the Leafs were bad, look at what Burke had to work with when just started. In either case, it was a bad idea to be trading first rounders.

 

[leafs in five]

A lot of people refuse to actually look at the numbers and instead just go off rhetoric. Like saying our scouting staff sucks, when we've drafted as many future NHL'ers as teams like CHI and DET.

No pleasing some people.

7 players on the Leafs roster were drafted and developed by the Leafs (i'm including Bozak there).

Chicago right now has 13. plus Morin and Leddy, guys they acquired as prospects (in exchange for guys the Hawks had drafted and developed and sold off when the price got too high).

Detroit has 18 by my count, including Datsyuk and Zetterberg who are injured.

 

[leafs in five]

there is no disillusioning some people.

 

[Center Ice Scrum*]

Those hoping for a tank don't live in the real world.

There is no reason to believe that this Organization will do anything else but continue to retool.

Better thread would be, "Patience, who's in?"

I've been sitting here for 15 years now with my patient hat on. Many have done it for 50+, I think the last thing Leafs nation and Leaf fans need a test in, is this concept of Patience. WE HAVE IT DOWN, ON LOCK! The mere fact that we sit around here and put in more brain energy feeling depressed and worried about a sports team seems to be the bigger issue at hand. I for one am oblivious to this **** though, I'll go back to my corner and stare at the wall now.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Last year was the perfect time for this team to tank. Getting Rielly + another top quality youngster like Mackinnon, Jones, Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm would have set this team up great long term.

We can't even tank this season. The most we'd be looking at is maybe possibly getting inside the top 10 of the draft. The difference between the 8th or 9th vs. making the playoff and getting the 15th or 16th pick in a a draft that doesn't have high end depth at the top of the draft and a lot of variance in scouting opinions.. Pretty easy choice that hoping for the playoffs is the only way to go this season.

However, next draft is suppose to be a high end draft. If this team hopes to ever one day become a legitimate contender it would be best to take a step back next year. Gain a top end prospect + gain cap space and long term assets by dealing out players who aren't in the 2-5 year plan starting with Lupul & Gleason (offer to retain cap to increase value) but also consider dealing out Kadri + Gunnarson because they'll be due big raises in a few seasons and might never have higher value.

 

[hoglund]

I've been sitting here for 15 years now with my patient hat on. Many have done it for 50+, I think the last thing Leafs nation and Leaf fans need a test in, is this concept of Patience. WE HAVE IT DOWN, ON LOCK! The mere fact that we sit around here and put in more brain energy feeling depressed and worried about a sports team seems to be the bigger issue at hand. I for one am oblivious to this **** though, I'll go back to my corner and stare at the wall now.

no one has been waiting 50 years, they won in 62, 64 and 67. Winning the Cup won't be any time soon, but look at Vancouver Canucks, they've been in the NHL for 43 years and have they won the Cup even once? They need patience too.

 

[thewave]

Sell sell sell and spend a year or two acquiring slowly.

Lupul will fetch
Dion will fetch
Franson so so
Reimer so so
Clarkson may cost to move but worth it.

That's all I would do. Grab the picks prospects and do not bring anything that will play right away back.

JVR Bozak Kessel locked
Kulemin Kadri Raymond
Bodie Bolland Holland
D' Mc Ashton

Rielly Gleason
Gardiner Gunner
Percy ---- etc

It's not as good a team but from this with available cap you can wait for good players to come available and use acquired picks to get them.

 

[Center Ice Scrum*]

no one has been waiting 50 years, they won in 62, 64 and 67. Winning the Cup won't be any time soon, but look at Vancouver Canucks, they've been in the NHL for 43 years and have they won the Cup even once? They need patience too.

Hey now, don't you get technical at me, I'm pissed off dammit.

 

[Center Ice Scrum*]

Sell sell sell and spend a year or two acquiring slowly.

Lupul will fetch
Dion will fetch
Franson so so
Reimer so so
Clarkson may cost to move but worth it.

That's all I would do. Grab the picks prospects and do not bring anything that will play right away back.

JVR Bozak Kessel locked
Kulemin Kadri Raymond
Bodie Bolland Holland
D' Mc Ashton

Rielly Gleason
Gardiner Gunner
Percy ---- etc

It's not as good a team but from this with available cap you can wait for good players to come available and use acquired picks to get them.

Way too much work, can't we just buy a team off the NHL? Or atleast the prospect pool. How about 20000 season tickets to the panthers for their prospect pool and picks? Make it happen Lie-Weaky.

 

[thewave]

Way too much work, can't we just buy a team off the NHL? Or atleast the prospect pool. How about 20000 season tickets to the panthers for their prospect pool and picks? Make it happen Lie-Weaky.

Haha well... If you trim the fat and buy into Kule Raymond at reasonable rates and Bolland as well you have the option of both giving them minutes to get points and trading for higher value. That's the beauty of taking a step back and slowing it down a little. The team would still be a bubble team as listed above with that first line a new coach.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Sell sell sell and spend a year or two acquiring slowly.

Lupul will fetch
Dion will fetch
Franson so so
Reimer so so
Clarkson may cost to move but worth it.

That's all I would do. Grab the picks prospects and do not bring anything that will play right away back.

JVR Bozak Kessel locked
Kulemin Kadri Raymond
Bodie Bolland Holland
D' Mc Ashton

Rielly Gleason
Gardiner Gunner
Percy ---- etc

It's not as good a team but from this with available cap you can wait for good players to come available and use acquired picks to get them.

I agree with your premise of retooling over a 2 or 3 year period.

However, I'd keep Dion cause he's locked up long term, top pairing Dman are incredibly hard to find (just ask Edmonton) and for all the faults people point out about Dion good luck replacing him.

I'd look at moving out all of the guys below:

-Franson + Reimer won't net much but still deal them.

-Lupul is already declining and that will continue. 2nd line wingers is the easiest position to fill with UFAs.

-Kadri would have nice trade value. He will no longer be on a great deal after next season. He'll be two years from UFA status and I've got serious concerns about him being able to elevate his game or ever become a 200 ft. player. He does bring offence but if he's getting 5 or 6 million on his next deal he needs to be more than a 60ish point player with defensive holes.

-Clarkson we just have to hope he somewhat bounces back and we can minimize the damage in trading him out.

-Gleason doesn't fit in the long term plans but could have good trade value because he only has two years left (especially if we retain some money)

-Gunnarson only has two years left on his deal and could net a very nice return. It would hurt to lose him but if Rielly + Gardiner are eating up 45 minutes or so a night on the left side, Gunnarson won't be worth a UFA pay raise in a few seasons.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Franson was going to traded for Del Zotto

 

[nussell]

It's all but a foregone conclusion now that the Leafs will not make the playoffs.

Your mom asked what you wanted for dinner tonight. When you come and no one answers i'm tanking your mom.
we are tied for a wild card spot give it a reast

 

[charliolemieux]

7 players on the Leafs roster were drafted and developed by the Leafs (i'm including Bozak there).

Chicago right now has 13. plus Morin and Leddy, guys they acquired as prospects (in exchange for guys the Hawks had drafted and developed and sold off when the price got too high).

Detroit has 18 by my count, including Datsyuk and Zetterberg who are injured.

If you try reading what was said, I never said that those players played for the Leafs, I just said they were NHL'ers. But way to totally miss the point and do a bunch of useless research.

 

[charliolemieux]

is that a fact?

Percy, Gauthier, Brown, Finn, Leivo, Granberg. any other team in the league has this number/calibre of "future NHLers"

LOL refer to my previous post about you missing the point.

 

[Diatomic]

Franson was going to traded for Del Zotto

There was speculation of this long ago apparently Sather had a severe interest in Franson. I'm guessing handedness had a part in why Franson is still a leaf (unfortunatley)... instead of Del Zotto

 

[leafs in five]

If you try reading what was said, I never said that those players played for the Leafs, I just said they were NHL'ers. But way to totally miss the point and do a bunch of useless research.

the Leafs have graduated as many NHLers as Detroit and Chicago? like, in total? since the lockout? did you "actually look at the numbers" that show this to be true?

 

[Apotheosis]

First post on the board, so bear with me here...

It's evident that this team going forward isn't going to challenge for a cup in any fallible way possible. There are certain players that are lock to stay as a "core", but there are others that are nothing but fixes or part of the quick retooling process built-in by Burke, and further reinforced by Nonis by acquiring Clarkson.

Keep: Reilly, Gardiner, Bernier, Kessel (or if we can move him for the number 1 pick next season, as McDavid is incomprehensibly talented), Van Riemsdyk, Phaneuf (Debatable), Mcclement (top 5 Pker in the league and integral to bolster the PK unit) and Bozak.

Sell/dump: Kadri, Bolland, Clarkson, Raymond, Reimer, Kulemin (although debatable as he's a solid second liner), Lupul, Gunnarson, Orr etc.

What this does is keep the "core" players (I.E the ones with growing potential still) on the team, while ridding us of the dead weight that plagues the team rather than help on a consistent basis.

At best, we're getting a 7-10 pick (depending on how many more games we lose this season). There are a plethora of solid pick-ups we can pick from there, ranging from solid centers (Ritchie, Nylander etc.) and defenseman for the future which we need.

Next season; BOMB. Adios. Sayonara! The draft after this one is the draft that changes franchises. In the same way Crosby changed the Penguins, Mcdavid can be that for us. With solid core players in the people I posted above, a growing defensive core (with potential picks at that spot and the developing Stuart Percy who should be playing with the leafs very soon) and a stud goalie with Vezina potential (with a better defensive line helping him, he's quite easily a 1.90-2.05 Gaa goalie given his credence), the leafs become primed FOR AN ACTUAL CHALLENGE.

So in hindsight: Continue to lose the rest of the season and pick up a solid first round pick this draft. Get rid of the deadweight to make the team less deep while letting players like Reilly, Gardiner and Percy develop with less pressure from the playoffs, and "tank" (hate the word) for the franchise, generational player in Mcdavid.

 

[leafs in five]

Leafs have a real bad PK though.

 

[charliolemieux]

the Leafs have graduated as many NHLers as Detroit and Chicago? like, in total? since the lockout? did you "actually look at the numbers" that show this to be true?

I believe I used 100 or 150gp min between 2001-2009. check it out. surprise yourself.

 

[Teeder9]

I believe I used 100 or 150gp min between 2001-2009. check it out. surprise yourself.

I used 150gp and at least one game for the team that drafted them, and I included Tatar and Nyqvist from Detroit who are now regulars from 08 and 09, and will use the same for Leafs and Hawks if that bears out



Leafs 15- Rask wasn't included

Blackhawks- 17

Wings- 11- Fleichman and Mathias didn't count

Impact players:

Leafs- Thus far just Steen and he's really only had this year to reach that level. I don't consider guys like Kulemin and Gunnarsson ect impact.

Hawks- 6 They have done an actual rebuild however

Wings- 1

Difference between the Leafs and Red Wings should be glaring unless you really want to compare us to a dynasty to somehow make a bad point

 

[charliolemieux]

I used 150gp and at least one game for the team that drafted them, and I included Tatar and Nyqvist from Detroit who are now regulars from 08 and 09, and will use the same for Leafs and Hawks if that bears out



Leafs 15- Rask wasn't included

Blackhawks- 17

Wings- 11- Fleichman and Mathias didn't count

Impact players:

Leafs- Thus far just Steen and he's really only had this year to reach that level. I don't consider guys like Kulemin and Gunnarsson ect impact.

Hawks- 6 They have done an actual rebuild however

Wings- 1

Difference between the Leafs and Red Wings should be glaring unless you really want to compare us to a dynasty to somehow make a bad point

Why should they have to play at least one game for the team that drafted them? The scouting staff didn't make the trade.

How long did the Hawks suck before they actually got the pieces to build around?
They had made the playoffs 1 time in 12 years before 2009.

Is that what you call an actual rebuild?

 

[Hero]

Tank next year for McDavid the Prophet.

He's practically a Toronto boy to.

 

[Teeder9]

Why should they have to play at least one game for the team that drafted them? The scouting staff didn't make the trade.

How long did the Hawks suck before they actually got the pieces to build around?
They had made the playoffs 1 time in 12 years before 2009.

Is that what you call an actual rebuild?

You're right. Take back the 2 cups they've won and give them hell for taking so long to try.

 

[charliolemieux]

You're right. Take back the 2 cups they've won and give them hell for taking so long to try.

They got lucky. There isn't always a Toews in the draft, and you don't always win the draft lottery.

Even if you win the lottery is it going to be an Eric Staal or a Jordan Staal?

There is so much luck involved in the draft, but on HF boards every 1st rounder is a top 6 forward, and every top 5 pick is a franchise player. It's laughable.