Tank Nation: Who's In?

[thewave]

If only Nonis did the right thing.

Dion would have been traded
Kessel would have been traded
Clarkson wouldn't be here

We'd have a stock of fresh young talent making waves on the ice. A full stable of Elite Prospects and Picks to build off of.


Instead we got a 10th place finish on our hands - and zero flexibility to do anything about it next season or the year after or the year after or the year after that or the year after that.

Don't need to trade Kessel that triggers rebuild. Just dump Dion and Carlyle Nonis Franson and Clarkson. The rest you work with and see what you have. A simple coaching/management change alone could be all that's needed even.

 

[Stephen]

So tell me how a proper rebuild is done? What I'm saying is that you can't just build through the draft. A cup winning team is built around good drafting and not necessarily the first pick overall. The Leafs have JVR who was drafted 2nd overall not by us directly but what's the difference just pretend we did. Kessel was drafted 5th overall, again let's pretend we drafted him ourselves, the list goes on with Phaneuf and Bernier among others. Then you have to sign good ufa's and make smart trades, a form of retooling. All Edmonton has done is draft and ignored other hockey transactions that's why they haven't succeeded which should be obvious to people. What a championship team needs is a smart front office that knows how to draft in all rounds, make smart trades and good ufa signings.

You have a very poor understanding of the importance of the draft and the Leafs problems.

a) the Leafs have very poor scouting, and draft terribly, so you might not see the value in the draft, but most successful teams at the top of the standings use the draft to build most of their cores.

b) JVR and Kessel are great players, but when you have to trade for them, there's assets in assets out. JVR and Kessel cost us the Seguin, Hamilton, Schenn and Knight. Seguin and Hamilton alone could be the two best pieces out of the whole bunch, and guess what, we didn't get to enjoy the ELCs Seguin and Hamilton were on.

c) You can't control the trade market, and what is usually available is available for a reason. We need a franchise center and a franchise defenseman. You think we can ring up Colorado and Nashville and start working out some deals for Mackinnon or Jones?

d) Edmonton is completely dysfunctional, there's nothing to say about them. At the exact same time they were tanking though, Colorado built up a pretty convincing power house through the draft...

 

[Snacks Kassian]

Lupul got that contract after scoring PPG. I'm pretty sure him getting 43 points this year with awful puck support wasn't the deal. It's a bad deal right now unless he returns to his scoring from 2 years ago or close to it. Maybe he does, but calling that a good deal right now is wrong. Clarkson is a terrible deal because he most likely won't come close to 50 points ever and he offers not much of anything else to close the gap. Bernier will get paid next season, but he got a contract that was probably too much in the first place considering his body of work. Luckily for us that one turned out to this point. As far as Kessel is concerned, no we probably didn't overpay, since there is at least one team who would've paid that much or more and he replied with one of his best seasons. Phaneuf on the other hand, just got paid like a #1. What's bad about this? This guy is better in almost every single way possible, and he just signed for 4.7:

There's others also like Giordano and Keith who are also better making far less while being actual #1 dmen

Yea I won't argue with much of that and I will never defend clarksons contract. But there is nuance to the scenario as mcdonagh was a rfa and the contracts of the other two were signed in a previous cba. Would I swap any of those three for Phaneuf, hell yes, but that's not the world we live in. Unfortunately his deal came up the first year into a new cba and got paid. At least we have two young talented d men we can get signed on good rfa deals in the future. Bottom line my point is it would be utterly stupid to tank this year or blow it up and tank next year.

 

[leafs in five]

I didn't include Dion in my original post and it seems you omitted Rielly in your reply also. People thought that Bozak was what he was before this season and yet he has found another level to his game and is putting up great PPG numbers this year. Just because a player is 27 doesn't mean they can't improve either. Kessel will probably finish right around 40 goals this year but who's to say he couldn't finish with 50 goals and push a 100 points if everything goes right for him. Over the next few seasons. I'm not saying his will do that every years I'm just talking about career years. JVR most definetly has another level.

Leafs should be fine cap wise and you can't negate everything positive that Nonis and Burke have done just because of the clarkson contract. Overall I think the leafs have done a nice job with their contracts. Lupul, JVR, Bernier are great deals and I would say we didn't overpay for kessel and Phaneuf.

Lupul doesn't look like a great deal at this point, maybe not terrible but certainly not a bargain. the Flyers gave that deal to JVR. Bernier was RFA. the Leafs have bought out three of the contracts (at least? Komi Grabo Colby, dunno if i'm forgetting anyone) given out by Burke (with Nonis as his assistant). Liles was making 5m in the AHL this season. i don't think that's really a good history of contracts. i don't wanna start a Bozak brawl so i'll leave that part alone.

i agree that the Leafs have some nice pieces but Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Kadri, Gardiner, Rielly, Phaneuf - i dunno, i have a hard time imagining that group improves/gels to a point where they are the central pieces of a contender. and if/when the Leafs decide to "retool" this offseason some of these guys will have to go in order to bring in, whatever, better character players or whatever the ****.

and again it's hard to see where the improvement comes from. first because they don't have a lot of cap room, second because the front office doesn't seem to think much is wrong that won't be solved by the team growing together, having better injury luck, playing harder, "figuring it out". the Leafs have the resources to put toward gaining a better understanding of where they are lacking as a team, why they struggle for instance in clearing their zone, why they have an abnormally high number of faceoffs in their own zone, why they give up so many shots, what you can learn from numbers like these. even if you end up discounting them. instead of just saying that they're useless because you know what you know, and you know that the Leafs won 6 games in a row in October. why scrutinize your assumptions when you know deep down that you are a hockey guy with hockey smarts, like your colleagues, and you've assured one another that the team is going in the right direction.

Nonis kind of reminds me of George W.

 

[DaveT83*]

Yea I won't argue with much of that and I will never defend clarksons contract. But there is nuance to the scenario as mcdonagh was a rfa and the contracts of the other two were signed in a previous cba. Would I swap any of those three for Phaneuf, hell yes, but that's not the world we live in. Unfortunately his deal came up the first year into a new cba and got paid. At least we have two young talented d men we can get signed on good rfa deals in the future. Bottom line my point is it would be utterly stupid to tank this year or blow it up and tank next year.

I'd be very interested in hearing why this is utterly stupid.

Just don't tell me about the BIG FREE AGENT that's going to become available and land here.
Just don't tell me about how amazing this guy Ross, Gautier or whoever else is down there will end up being.
Just don't tell me that this season was an abnormality and that contrary to all the evidence this is a really good team simply missing a few spare parts.


If you're able to do that - I'd be very happy

 

[Strategy]

When Burke traded 2 firsts and a second for Kessel, our rebuild was over before it began. That kind of set back is too much and the team went into win-now mode, and we'll suffer from it for the next while

 

[Teeder9]

Yea I won't argue with much of that and I will never defend clarksons contract. But there is nuance to the scenario as mcdonagh was a rfa and the contracts of the other two were signed in a previous cba. Would I swap any of those three for Phaneuf, hell yes, but that's not the world we live in. Unfortunately his deal came up the first year into a new cba and got paid. At least we have two young talented d men we can get signed on good rfa deals in the future. Bottom line my point is it would be utterly stupid to tank this year or blow it up and tank next year.

Their contracts pay them virtually the same amount every year. They took less than they could have gotten. A lot less. We didn't get that luxury because all 4 took as much as possible. Now, going into free agency we will have every agent, and rightly so, requesting a Clarkson contract, and nothing Nonis says will make them want less, considering almost all of the worthwhile free agents are all better than him

Nonis is already thinking up his pr excuses


By the way, this would likely be the best possible year to tank. The Oilers need to make the playoffs desperately and need defense. The Isles desperately need to keep JohnT's head with the team and need wingers to make the playoffs. Both ripe for the picking

 

[Snacks Kassian]

I'd be very interested in hearing why this is utterly stupid.

Just don't tell me about the BIG FREE AGENT that's going to become available and land here.
Just don't tell me about how amazing this guy Ross, Gautier or whoever else is down there will end up being.
Just don't tell me that this season was an abnormality and that contrary to all the evidence this is a really good team simply missing a few spare parts.


If you're able to do that - I'd be very happy

You'll never see me post about saviour free agents because I just don't think that's realistic.

I will never post that we have the greatest propect pool in hockey but after years and years of neglect we have graduated some very good players and there are solid nhl players still to come, there is no denying that.

I never said this was a really good team. Right now we are average but have shown signs of being able to play with any team in the league, we've had some nice wins over some really good teams this year. A few spare parts and a new voice behind the bench wouldn't hurt.

You don't tank the year after you lock up the remainder of your core, that would be bi polar. It would be foolish to at least not see what we really have in kadri, gards, rielly, bernier. Like it or not the team isn't changing drastically anytime soon. This team has the potential to be really good in a couple years if we are patient, imo. There are way to many pessimists on this board.

 

[jimmycarter]

play like black hole for dal colle

 

[Diatomic]

You'll never see me post about savour free agents because I just don't think that's realistic.

I will never post that we have the greatest propect pool in hockey but after years and years of neglect we have graduated some very good players and there are solid nhl players still to come, there is no denying that.

I never said this was a really good team. Right now we are average but have shown signs of being able to play with any team in the league, we've had some nice wins over some really good teams this year. A few spare parts and a new voice behind the bench wouldn't hurt.

You don't tank the year after you lock up the remainder of your core, that would be bi polar. It would be foolish to at least not see what we really have in kadri, gards, rielly, bernier. Like it or not the team isn't changing drastically anytime soon. This team has the potential to be really good in a couple years if we are patient, imo. There are way to many pessimists on this board.

Who are these very good players that we've drafted and developed? The only most-recent significant NHL player I can remember the leafs fully drafting and developing is Kaberle, which was a long time ago. This organization can't draft, this organization can't develop, this organization can't win; what can it do? Look at our current line-up, every player playing a major role is aquired through trade excluding Kadri, and lord knows half of leafs fans want 1 dimensional lazy arrogant Kadri out of here .

 

[Snacks Kassian]

Who are these very good players that we've drafted and developed? The only most-recent significant NHL player I can remember the leafs fully drafting and developing is Kaberle, which was a long time ago. This organization can't draft, this organization can't develop, this organization can't win; what can it do? Look at our current line-up, every player playing a major role is aquired through trade excluding Kadri, and lord knows half of leafs fans want 1 dimensional lazy arrogant Kadri out of here .

Kadri is not one dimensional. Nowhere in my post did I mention drafting. We have had kadri, gards, rielly, reimer come through recently. We flipped schen for JVR. For the sake of my argument we added a prospect in holland that will be a decent nhler. We've had a bunch of home grown draft picks play this year and are knocking on the door. Guys like Percy, granberg, gautier are coming and oh yea Connor brown. I'm not saying these are all world type players but for the first time in a long time we have some sort of pipeline of young players pushing for nhl jobs.

I guess you want to blow it all up and tank? Was there ever a poll done on this? Would be interesting to know.

Couldn't forget Gunnar and Kuli either.

 

[charliolemieux]

When Burke traded 2 firsts and a second for Kessel, our rebuild was over before it began. That kind of set back is too much and the team went into win-now mode, and we'll suffer from it for the next while

So we are in "win now" mode yet still one of the younger teams in the league.

How the **** does that work?

 

[charliolemieux]

Kadri is not one dimensional. Nowhere in my post did I mention drafting. We have had kadri, gards, rielly, reimer come through recently. We flipped schen for JVR. For the sake of my argument we added a prospect in holland that will be a decent nhler. We've had a bunch of home grown draft picks play this year and are knocking on the door. Guys like Percy, granberg, gautier are coming and oh yea Connor brown. I'm not saying these are all world type players but for the first time in a long time we have some sort of pipeline of young players pushing for nhl jobs.

I guess you want to blow it all up and tank? Was there ever a poll done on this? Would be interesting to know.

Couldn't forget Gunnar and Kuli either.

A lot of people refuse to actually look at the numbers and instead just go off rhetoric. Like saying our scouting staff sucks, when we've drafted as many future NHL'ers as teams like CHI and DET.

No pleasing some people.

 

[jimmycarter]

leafs have a lot of talent.

they don't have a GM or coach that can bring that all together.

this means trading some players out.

 

[saffronleaf]

I've been calling for a tank since 2003

lol that's pretty hipster of you, calling for a tank before it was cool.

I thought we had a great team assembled for the 2004 playoffs. ****ing Roenick.

 

[leafs in five]

A lot of people refuse to actually look at the numbers and instead just go off rhetoric. Like saying our scouting staff sucks, when we've drafted as many future NHL'ers as teams like CHI and DET.

is that a fact?

Percy, Gauthier, Brown, Finn, Leivo, Granberg. any other team in the league has this number/calibre of "future NHLers"

 

[Joey Hoser]

So we are in "win now" mode yet still one of the younger teams in the league.

How the **** does that work?

We are a young team, but we only have 1 guy under the age of 23. Everyone else is about to enter their prime or is already in it. Over the next few years, the 23-26 group will improve to some degree and the 29-32 guys will probably start to decline to a similar degree.

I'm not saying we won't improve internally. We probably will, but it's kinda hard to point to our age and say that that's what's going to take the Leafs to another level. It's not a bunch of kids still trying to find their way, it's mostly guys with years of pro experience who need to get their **** together.

 

[hoglund]

It's a bit late to tank. For the last 10 years it the Leafs seem to be the best team to miss the playoffs and because of that, they get a poor pick and don't get the benefits of making the playoffs. I do agree if you miss the playoffs, you should do it right and REALLY miss the playoffs, like Edmonton has the last few years and get great picks.
Tanking now is a little late and the chances of making the playoffs this year are still about 50- 50, so to some those chances are a little too high to start to tank.

 

[leafs in five]

and we aren't the only organization with some promising 3rd line F/2nd-3rd pairing D prospects. and many teams have a good stable of those type prospects plus some with higher end skill and potential. seems to me that the "don't worry we'll get better" defense of this team kind of assumes that other teams won't. when the Leafs have a middle of the pack prospect pool at best, and have traded their 2nd round pick in 2013, 14, 15.

 

[DaveT83*]

You'll never see me post about saviour free agents because I just don't think that's realistic.

I will never post that we have the greatest propect pool in hockey but after years and years of neglect we have graduated some very good players and there are solid nhl players still to come, there is no denying that.

I never said this was a really good team. Right now we are average but have shown signs of being able to play with any team in the league, we've had some nice wins over some really good teams this year. A few spare parts and a new voice behind the bench wouldn't hurt.

You don't tank the year after you lock up the remainder of your core, that would be bi polar. It would be foolish to at least not see what we really have in kadri, gards, rielly, bernier. Like it or not the team isn't changing drastically anytime soon. This team has the potential to be really good in a couple years if we are patient, imo. There are way to many pessimists on this board.

I'll respectfully disagree with the sentiment that because you have a group of guys locked up long term that you have no other choice but to see it through.

Thats not pessimism. That's making a realistic evaluation.

Why can't you tank? This year we will assuredly not make the playoffs. Does that mean your team is completely ruined? At this point finishing 10th or 13th in the East has no disadvantage other than draft position. Next year things won't be any different unless major changes occur - which your telling me cannot possibly happen. So why enter into another season knowing your going to get the same uninspired results.

At the very least build a better tomorrow.

 

[leafs in five]

i don't care about tanking this season. just stop blowing assets and cap space to try and fill out a crummy team.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Its probably been said, but its too late and this isn't the draft. Like the difference between 10-14 this year isn't much of a change is it? Unless the the difference between 10-14 can get us in the top 5 (and with Nonis as GM, it won't, it rarely does anyway), then what's the point? We aren't getting Reinhart, Ekblad, Dal Colle, Bennett, Draisaitl, Perlini, McCann. Seems the rest are toss ups no?

 

[ACC1224]

Those hoping for a tank don't live in the real world.

There is no reason to believe that this Organization will do anything else but continue to retool.

Better thread would be, "Patience, who's in?"

 

[leafs in five]

and yeah everyone knows the team isn't changing drastically any time soon, like it or not. the front office really believes that this Leafs team - Phaneuf as #1D, Bozak as #1C - has the potential to be really good, and aren't interested in acknowledging a pretty sizable body of evidence (much of which can be gathered by #watchingthegame, i'm not talking just stats here) that suggests that might not be true. but i understand the refusal on the part of these guys to entertain the idea that the team isn't as good as they think it is. whatever other criticisms i have of the front office they are guys who seem to know how to keep their jobs.

 

[leafs in five]

Its probably been said, but its too late and this isn't the draft. Like the difference between 10-14 this year isn't much of a change is it? Unless the the difference between 10-14 can get us in the top 5 (and with Nonis as GM, it won't, it rarely does anyway), then what's the point? We aren't getting Reinhart, Ekblad, Dal Colle, Bennett, Draisaitl, Perlini, McCann. Seems the rest are toss ups no?

i agree here. i'd only say that because the Leafs have traded so many picks it will be difficult for them to move up if they do like a guy that might go a bit earlier than their spot.