Transfer: Summer Transfer Rumors and Discussion Part VI

[Peen]

What homegrown talent has Tuchel ignored at Chelsea? No generic statements - throw names out and what you think he could have done better.

 

[Savant]

I don't know if I agree with the idea that Tuchel is ignoring homegrown talent. We saw a lot of Mount, James, and Chalobah last season. There's no reason to think those three won't be playing a role this year. They're bringing in Sterling, sure, but it's not like he's displacing a top homegrown talent. Maybe you can make that argument at CB if they bring in multiple names, but they're losing Christensen, Rudiger, and Azpi.

I mean, would you say that Liverpool is splashing the cash and ignoring homegrown talent because they signed Diaz/Nunez instead of giving all those minutes to Elliott/Gordon? Or when they brought in Ramsey to replace home grown talent N. Williams? Of course not. And I'm no Chelsea fan.

Mount and James are certainly established but the eight figure transfer fees that they are spending to replace the other players that could be using is indicative they don’t want to develop those guys further.

Your LFC example really falls short. Diaz and Darwin are being brought in to replace the Mane essentially and are a part of the contingency planning to replace Firmino as well. And LFC is still operating reasonably close to net spend. Look what they’ve generated by selling Mane, Minamino, Neco, etc.

Elliott plays midfield for them and it’s likely he will have a big role this season. He was starting games for them at RCM before he got hurt, and may be in frame to start plenty of games for them again. It’s one of the reasons LFC isn’t trying to buy a midfielder this summer; they want to give the Carvalho/Elliott/Jones group a shot their first. They didn’t get their target Tchouameni so they are planning on staying in house instead of just buying a guy; which is literally the opposite of what Chelsea, who are target hopping, is doing. Gordon probably gets loaned out. So Liverpool is at least planning for years down the line here instead of short term.

They brought in Ramsay to replace Neco because Neco wanted a move so he can start for Wales at the World Cup and he wasn’t getting enough minutes at LFC. Ramsay was 4.5m-ish. Neco was just sold for 17ish. That’s just good business and again LFC is going young there instead of splashing cash on a more established RB who isn’t going to get a lot of minutes.

You are way off here if you can’t see the differences.

 

[Savant]

What homegrown talent has Tuchel ignored at Chelsea? No generic statements - throw names out and what you think he could have done better.

I think Chelsea should not buy center backs with Chalobah and Colwill waiting in the wings. They should spend the money elsewhere.

I think Chelsea should not buy a midfielder if they have Gallagher and Gilmore.

I think Chelsea should not throw away Broja like he is nothing. Maybe he doesn’t statt but that’s a hell of a backup. Can say the say about Hudson-Odoi.

Instead Chelsea will pay nine figures in transfer fees to bury these quality home grown players.

All of these guys have proved they are PL level and have been bigged up by the Chelsea fan base. Tuchel isn’t giving these a fair shot because he would rather do shiny new toy. Which is the Chelsea way

 

[bleedblue1223]

Mount and James are certainly established but the eight figure transfer fees that they are spending to replace the other players that could be using is indicative they don’t want to develop those guys further.

Your LFC example really falls short. Diaz and Darwin are being brought in to replace the Mane essentially and are a part of the contingency planning to replace Firmino as well. And LFC is still operating reasonably close to net spend. Look what they’ve generated by selling Mane, Minamino, Neco, etc.

Elliott plays midfield for them and it’s likely he will have a big role this season. He was starting games for them at RCM before he got hurt, and may be in frame to start plenty of games for them again. It’s one of the reasons LFC isn’t trying to buy a midfielder this summer; they want to give the Carvalho/Elliott/Jones group a shot their first. They didn’t get their target Tchouameni so they are planning on staying in house instead of just buying a guy; which is literally the opposite of what Chelsea, who are target hopping, is doing. Gordon probably gets loaned out. So Liverpool is at least planning for years down the line here instead of short term.

They brought in Ramsay to replace Neco because Neco wanted a move so he can start for Wales at the World Cup and he wasn’t getting enough minutes at LFC. Ramsay was 4.5m-ish. Neco was just sold for 17ish. That’s just good business and again LFC is going young there instead of splashing cash on a more established RB who isn’t going to get a lot of minutes.

You are way off here if you can’t see the differences.

So, you don't have an issue with a club that purchases players to replace players that leave, and when they have a relatively low net spend. Interesting.

 

[Savant]

So, you don't have an issue with a club that purchases players to replace players that leave, and when they have a relatively low net spend. Interesting.

I don’t, but Liverpool aren’t replacing 90m transfers after one year either. And to be honest, Liverpool don’t have the PL ready replacements on their depth chart like Chelsea do. It’s a different situation. Chelsea have the guys on the roster. Liverpool don’t. Would you rather have Nat Phillips and Rhys Williams or Colwill and Chalobah?

 

[bleedblue1223]

I think Chelsea should not buy center backs with Chalobah and Colwill waiting in the wings. They should spend the money elsewhere.

I think Chelsea should not buy a midfielder if they have Gallagher and Gilmore.

I think Chelsea should not throw away Broja like he is nothing. Maybe he doesn’t statt but that’s a hell of a backup. Can say the say about Hudson-Odoi.

Instead Chelsea will pay nine figures in transfer fees to bury these quality home grown players.

All of these guys have proved they are PL level and have been bigged up by the Chelsea fan base. Tuchel isn’t giving these a fair shot because he would rather do shiny new toy. Which is the Chelsea way

We need to buy CBs when we have 2 and possibly 3 leaving, especially if we stick with a back 3.

We really aren't linked with CMs at the moment. Any target probably would've been dependent on Jorginho to Juve in a potential De Ligt deal.

Last report I saw was that Tuchel wanted to see Broja in pre-season, but we have recently received some interest with sizable fees, so we'll see what happens here.

Being PL level and being starting 11 or bench level on a top 4 club are 2 different things.

I don’t, but Liverpool aren’t replacing 90m transfers after one year either. And to be honest, Liverpool don’t have the PL ready replacements on their depth chart like Chelsea do. It’s a different situation. Chelsea have the guys on the roster. Liverpool don’t. Would you rather have Nat Phillips and Rhys Williams or Colwill and Chalobah?

If we have a back 3, where should Colwill and Chalobah be on your Chelsea depth chart. If we go to a back 4, then where would you have them?

 

[bluesfan94]

Your LFC example really falls short. Diaz and Darwin are being brought in to replace the Mane essentially and are a part of the contingency planning to replace Firmino as well. And LFC is still operating reasonably close to net spend. Look what they’ve generated by selling Mane, Minamino, Neco, etc.

And Koulibaly/Ake would be brought in to replace Christensen and Rudiger and would be part of the contingency plan to replace Alonso and Azpilicueta. Meanwhile, Chelsea had a positive net spend last year and we have no idea what their net spend will be this year. Why does that comparison fall short? If anything, instead of signing two players for 1.5 positions, Chelsea would be signing two players for 2 starting slots and 2 contingency positions.

They brought in Ramsay to replace Neco because Neco wanted a move so he can start for Wales at the World Cup and he wasn’t getting enough minutes at LFC. Ramsay was 4.5m-ish. Neco was just sold for 17ish. That’s just good business and again LFC is going young there instead of splashing cash on a more established RB who isn’t going to get a lot of minutes.

That's because they're replacing a backup. If it had been TAA leaving, I'm sure they would have signed an established RB over giving Neco the position.

Elliott plays midfield for them and it’s likely he will have a big role this season. He was starting games for them at RCM before he got hurt, and may be in frame to start plenty of games for them again. It’s one of the reasons LFC isn’t trying to buy a midfielder this summer; they want to give the Carvalho/Elliott/Jones group a shot their first. They didn’t get their target Tchouameni so they are planning on staying in house instead of just buying a guy; which is literally the opposite of what Chelsea, who are target hopping, is doing. Gordon probably gets loaned out. So Liverpool is at least planning for years down the line here instead of short term.

I just want to make sure we're clear - loaning out home grown talent is a good thing? Elliott also has played wing for Liverpool, including this morning. I guess you're applauding Liverpool for failing to sign their splash-the-cash guy; certainly it's clear that Liverpool's intent was to ignore its homegrown talent (also, lol at including Carvalho in that group) for a splashy signing.

You are way off here if you can’t see the differences.

Are there differences? Sure. But Liverpool has spent much more than Chelsea this year to replace fewer players.

 

[Peen]

I think Chelsea should not buy center backs with Chalobah and Colwill waiting in the wings. They should spend the money elsewhere.

I think Chelsea should not buy a midfielder if they have Gallagher and Gilmore.

I think Chelsea should not throw away Broja like he is nothing. Maybe he doesn’t statt but that’s a hell of a backup. Can say the say about Hudson-Odoi.

Instead Chelsea will pay nine figures in transfer fees to bury these quality home grown players.

yeah, you are being ridiculous. Imagine if I said the Rangers are throwing away Nils Lundqvist and will inevitably waste him when they trade him somewhere and he gets minutes and puts up points. Like, there is context here in which he is blocked by better players and players on bigger salaries. There is no chance Lundqvist should be playing 20 games a year in the NHL as the seventh or eighth defenseman.

we already had Chalobah last year and he played a lot of games. We are losing three centerback on a team in which Molang star had to play a bunch of games because of injuries and you are suggesting that we only fill one of the three replacements. Our depth chart would be Colwill at left-center back, Thiago at centerback, Chalobah at right centre back, and Sarr as the loan centreback off the bench. You are genuinely just not thinking.

Gilly went on loan last season because he did not play a lot behind Kovacic, Jorginho, and Kante in 19-20. Now that there is even better young midfielder in front of him, you think it makes sense for Gilly to stay as 5th choice when we play with the midfield two?

Have you even looked into the injury that Odoi had last season and why he didn’t play? I’m going to let you do the research on that one yourself.

Of the following forwards, which player are you taking out of the 18 in favour of Broja? Sterling Havertz mount werner Pulisic CHO. Why would he stay to be seventh choice?

I can’t believe the rangers haven’t traded Trouba and Schneider to make place for Lundqvist!!!!!!!

 

[Savant]

We need to buy CBs when we have 2 and possibly 3 leaving, especially if we stick with a back 3.

We really aren't linked with CMs at the moment. Any target probably would've been dependent on Jorginho to Juve in a potential De Ligt deal.

Last report I saw was that Tuchel wanted to see Broja in pre-season, but we have recently received some interest with sizable fees, so we'll see what happens here.

Being PL level and being starting 11 or bench level on a top 4 club are 2 different things.


If we have a back 3, where should Colwill and Chalobah be on your Chelsea depth chart. If we go to a back 4, then where would you have them?

I mean Chalobah should start for them in a back three based on last year. He’s earned that chance, has he not? Colwill could certainly be first off the bench based on this Championship form. Sarr is still there too; why the hell did you buy him if to weren’t going to use him? Either way they have bodies there. If you commit to those guys then at the minimum you only need to buy Koulibaly OR Ake, not both. If you are going more back four, you don’t need either.

Thought I saw a link to FDJ but not Sure how good that was. Either way Chelsea would have been much better with Gallagher instead of Saul (another guy Tuchel wanted and Chelsea got just for the hell of it) last year, would they not have? I thought I saw that Borja didn’t even fly to America but you can correct me in that. PL level sure but you’ve got to develop those guys into more if, as reported, Todd wants to go closer to LFC model.

 

[Peen]

That’s right Tuchel! You better use this championship quality centerback who looks like a deer in the headlights because the board made a stupid f***ing signing! Go get em Sarr! Do the job replacing Rudiger and Christensen!

What a joke lmao

 

[bluesfan94]

I think Chelsea should not buy center backs with Chalobah and Colwill waiting in the wings. They should spend the money elsewhere.

Chelsea regularly plays with 3 CBs. Their current CBs would be Silva, Chalobah, James, Colwill, and Sarr. James also plays RB. Colwill's 19 and his highest level is the Championship. I didn't see this criticism when Liverpool added Konate despite having Gomez, Matip, and VvD, with Phillips and Williams "waiting in the wings"

I think Chelsea should not buy a midfielder if they have Gallagher and Gilmore.

What CMs are they looking to buy?

I think Chelsea should not throw away Broja like he is nothing.

Is there any indication this is happening? If so, will it be because Chelsea doesn't want him or because Broja wants to play more (a la Neco Williams)?

All of these guys have proved they are PL level and have been bigged up by the Chelsea fan base. Tuchel isn’t giving these a fair shot because he would rather do shiny new toy. Which is the Chelsea way

Colwill hasn't proven he's PL level, for instance. And there's no indication they aren't getting a fair shot. Even if, say, Koulibaly comes, there will be plenty of minutes available for Chalobah and Colwill. James will be the starting RWB assuming Azpi leaves, so the CBs will be Silva, Koulibaly, and then Chalobah/Colwill/Sarr. 5 people for 3 spots is no different than 4 people for 2 spots, which is what happened when Liverpool brought in Konate. And I'm ignoring Williams and Phillips, who had played in the PL, unlike Colwill.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I mean Chalobah should start for them in a back three based on last year. He’s earned that chance, has he not? Colwill could certainly be first off the bench based on this Championship form. Sarr is still there too; why the hell did you buy him if to weren’t going to use him? Either way they have bodies there. If you commit to those guys then at the minimum you only need to buy Koulibaly OR Ake, not both. If you are going more back four, you don’t need either.

Thought I saw a link to FDJ but not Sure how good that was. Either way Chelsea would have been much better with Gallagher instead of Saul (another guy Tuchel wanted and Chelsea got just for the hell of it) last year, would they not have? I thought I saw that Borja didn’t even fly to America but you can correct me in that. PL level sure but you’ve got to develop those guys into more if, as reported, Todd wants to go closer to LFC model.

Damn, I want to alternate universe where Liverpool followed the strategy that you want Chelsea to follow and they never won any titles. Like come on man.

 

[Savant]

And Koulibaly/Ake would be brought in to replace Christensen and Rudiger and would be part of the contingency plan to replace Alonso and Azpilicueta. Meanwhile, Chelsea had a positive net spend last year and we have no idea what their net spend will be this year. Why does that comparison fall short? If anything, instead of signing two players for 1.5 positions, Chelsea would be signing two players for 2 starting slots and 2 contingency positions.

That's because they're replacing a backup. If it had been TAA leaving, I'm sure they would have signed an established RB over giving Neco the position.

I just want to make sure we're clear - loaning out home grown talent is a good thing? Elliott also has played wing for Liverpool, including this morning. I guess you're applauding Liverpool for failing to sign their splash-the-cash guy; certainly it's clear that Liverpool's intent was to ignore its homegrown talent (also, lol at including Carvalho in that group) for a splashy signing.

Are there differences? Sure. But Liverpool has spent much more than Chelsea this year to replace fewer players.

Because Chelsea have the players and don’t use them. That’s the difference. If they are going to compare themselves to the how LFC operates you have to look through that lens. Not the typical Chelsea lens. The only manager they’ve had recently who has done anything differently was Lampard.

Trent didn’t leave. Neco left. Let’s talk about reality here. If Trent leaves maybe LFC rolls with Neco. We don’t know that, but there is more evidence that LFC would try to replace internal compared to what Chelsea is doing this summer and largely over the last decade.

Elliott played wing in a preseason friendly that LFC played 32 players in. All of his regular season minutes have been at midfield. If he can cover at wing that’s a bonus. Again you are missing the point here. LFC missed their target and they didn’t take their millions of dollars elsewhere. They are holding it until the right player comes, as opposed to just going down a list tho the next guy in that bracket. Carvalho qualifies as a homegrown player so I mentioned him there. Didn’t say LFC home grew him.

 

[Peen]

I wonder if Liverpool lost Salah this summer if they would have replaced his minutes with Ox.

Really makes you wonder.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I wonder if Liverpool lost Salah this summer if they would have replaced his minutes with Ox.

Really makes you wonder.

No it’s different because reasons?

Look there’s plenty to shit on Chelsea for, especially when it comes to homegrown talent and the loan army. But buying CB’s when they have none? Weird.

 

[Savant]

That’s right Tuchel! You better use this championship quality centerback who looks like a deer in the headlights because the board made a stupid f***ing signing! Go get em Sarr! Do the job replacing Rudiger and Christensen!

What a joke lmao

Then why sign Sarr? If Todd is trying to replicate LFC model, the. You have to develop that player.

Your disgust at the suggestion of developing your own player shows Why the Chelsea model is what it is.

I wonder if Liverpool lost Salah this summer if they would have replaced his minutes with Ox.

Really makes you wonder.

If Liverpool lost Salah they probably would have re-signed Mane.

 

[Peen]

Then why sign Sarr? If Todd is trying to replicate LFC model, the. You have to develop that player.

Your disgust at the suggestion of developing your own player shows Why the Chelsea model is what it is.

You’re right. They should have never signed him.

It’s some dumb sunk cost fallacy and you are desperately trying to prove a point that has some merit in certain circumstances with a stupid example in Sarr.

He is shit. Porto relegated him. He is, at best, a championship level player. He isn’t overly young. They have developed him to his ceiling. He played a lot, and he looked like shit.

No it’s different because reasons?

Look there’s plenty to shit on Chelsea for, especially when it comes to homegrown talent and the loan army. But buying CB’s when they have none? Weird.

The ox thing was a clear /s to show how stupid the Sarr thing was

 

[Jussi]

He was giving hell not so long ago for posting shitty sources. How things change quickly when your team might get someone relevant

For posting no sources.

 

[bleedblue1223]

My god, besides TAA, wasn't every core piece of Liverpool lately a relatively big money transfer? I won't knock how they identify proper targets and get them, but lets not act like they built their squad internally. Salah, Mane, Firmino, Robertson, Van Dijk, Alisson, Wijnaldum, Thiago, Fabinho, etc. The City/Liverpool method is clearly about identifying proper transfer targets and paying up for them.

 

[bluesfan94]

Trent didn’t leave. Neco left. Let’s talk about reality here.

Well yeah, which is why the comparison with Christensen/Rudiger falls apart, but the point is that rather than keeping a young "home grown talent," Liverpool sold its home grown talent to buy a new player.

If Trent leaves maybe LFC rolls with Neco. We don’t know that, but there is more evidence that LFC would try to replace internal compared to what Chelsea is doing this summer and largely over the last decade.

What evidence? The most recent evidence we have of Liverpool players being replaced is Lovren being replaced by Konate, Mane/Nunez being replaced by Jota/Diaz/Nunez, and Williams being replaced with Ramsay. Other than TAA, who's the last Liverpool academy product that really locked in a role in the starting XI? Sterling? I may be missing someone without looking back, but still.

Let's look at Liverpool's two deep:

Diaz/Jota - Nunez/Firmino - Salah/(Gordon)
Fabinho/Henderson - Thiago/Jones - Keita/Elliott
Robertson/Tsimikas - VvD/Matip - Konate/Gomez - TAA/Ramsay
Alisson/Kelleher​

Total, there are 5 Liverpool "home grown talents" and only one of those is a starter. And that's with me being generous about Gordon and we're counting a backup GK

Chelsea, meanwhile, including Koulibaly:

Werner/Broja
Sterling/Pulisic - Mount/Havertz
Chilwell/(Emerson) - Kante/Kovacic - Jorginho/(Gallagher) - James/???
Silva/Colwill - Koulibaly/Sarr - Chalobah/(Ampadu)
Mendy/Kepa​

Not sure if that's exactly right, but you have 6 "home grown talents" with 3 starters.

LFC missed their target and they didn’t take their millions of dollars elsewhere. They are holding it until the right player comes, as opposed to just going down a list tho the next guy in that bracket.

Yes, because they aren't losing two starting CMs. If, say, Thiago and Fabinho were leaving, I bet they go to #2 on their list instead of just saying, ah screw it, we lost Tchouameni so let's role with a midfield of Keita, Elliott, and Henderson with Jones as the backup.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I still can't get over how @Savant has convinced himself that Liverpool was built internally with home-grown talents.

There is a lot I'll criticize Chelsea for over the years, and if Boehly repeats those things, I'll be just as loud on calling it out, but the logic here is nutty.

 

[The Abusement Park]

You’re right. They should have never signed him.

It’s some dumb sunk cost fallacy and you are desperately trying to prove a point that has some merit in certain circumstances with a stupid example in Sarr.

He is shit. Porto relegated him. He is, at best, a championship level player. He isn’t overly young. They have developed him to his ceiling. He played a lot, and he looked like shit.


The ox thing was a clear /s to show how stupid the Sarr thing was

No I’m agreeing with you. Savants take is idiotic.

 

[Peen]

I still can't get over how @Savant has convinced himself that Liverpool was built internally with home-grown talents.

There is a lot I'll criticize Chelsea for over the years, and if Boehly repeats those things, I'll be just as loud on calling it out, but the logic here is nutty.

Valid criticisms

1. Chelsea has squad bloat. Too many players up front, too many bad players as depth in midfield, sarr.
2. Cannot let a coach solely dictate transfers. Imagine if Liverpool had Brandt instead of Salah.
3. We need a strong DOF.
4. Wage structure is an issue and needs to be addressed
5. Less Sarrs
6. They can’t gloss over the Lukaku failure. It was reported that the board and Tuchel were totally on the same page with that signing, and it was a huge transfer fee. It can’t just be forgotten and moved on from - it was a genuinely terrifying mistake. Mistakes will happen, but it can’t be like that.

I’m not going to sit here and read some dumb BUT MALANG SARR! BUT GILMOUR! BUT WHY DOESNT BROJA WANT TO STAY BEHIND 7 OTHER FORWARDS?

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Romano confirms Raphinha to Barcelona

 

[Jussi]

Romano confirms Raphinha to Barcelona