1. A shark eats a seal out of survival. A human eats a cow out of greed. A shark also doesn't breed a seal, chain it up, torture it, then kill it.
2. Because we have the ability to make choice.
3. It's about limiting harm, not being perfect. Do you apply this logic to the rest of your life? "Well if I can't do it perfectly then I might as well not do it at all."
4. Who are we to determine that our life is more valuable than another life? I never said we can't make moral decisions. That's exactly why we shouldn't kill animals - there's no need. We don't kill babies simply because they don't possess the ability to make moral decisions, do we? Our ability to think and make ethical decisions is the reason we shouldn't torture and kill, not the reason we should.
Any other strawmen for me?
It's insane the amount of guilt meat eaters hold. The non-stop bombardment of completely inane arguments is a true testament to this.
What a disgusting world we live in.
What a disgusting world we live in.
Bones Malone
Owner - HF Boards
You know, you could always leave if it's so much of a burden...
It's not like anyone would miss you, or you would miss anyone
Kyle93
Registered User
- Mar 30, 2012
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bombers15
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If a human can be greedy but a shark can't, you're admitting that there is a difference between humans and animals.
Right. Which is something an animal can't do. Thus, we are not the same as animals. Thus, your assertion that all life has equal value is objectively wrong.
I get that, but it leaves you in an uncomfortable position. Why do you care so much about cows and pigs? I may only be responsible for the death of 1 of those animals every year, so what's the big deal? If a mosquito has just as much worth, why are you not putting your effort in reducing harm there?
Either you do value some animals more than others (thus refuting your "all life is equal" claim and making you essentially no different than meat-eaters) or you are desperately misguided in how to most effectively limit harm.
If you think that we can make moral choices - which I agree with - then you have to admit that we are different than animals. It's impossible for you to suggest that we are the only creatures on the planet with the ability to make moral choice, yet we have the exact same intrinsic worth as a hornet. That doesn't follow.
The only way we could be exactly the same as other animals is if we didn't have the ability to make ethical decisions. And if we didn't have that ability, well obviously it then wouldn't be "wrong" to eat animals.
Do you see the inherent contradiction? The only way you can claim moral highground in not eating meat is by admitting that we are indeed separate and distinct from other animals. And if we are indeed separate and distinct, a person can then defend the choice to eat animals because we are separate and distinct.
None of that was a strawman. I quite clearly indicated that the point of my post was to reveal your own hypocrisy (since the point of most of your posts was to try and label meat-eaters as hypocrites). And I think I did reveal that you have some hypocrisy in your position.
Soliloquy of a Dogge
I love you, Boots
Soliloquy of a Dogge
I love you, Boots
Never tire of seeing this!
Oh, if only TJ knew of the high quality steaks you feed your beloved doggies!
My dogs are using their mind control and making me cognitively dissonant...
Again I ask, if the possession of morality dictates the hierarchy of the value of life, and it is fine to kill those lower on the hierarchy, why do we not kill babies or people who are severely disabled?
I never said a cow's life is more valuable than a mosquito's life. It's a lot easier to avoid running into a cow than it is to avoid running into a mosquito though, so unfortunately some mosquitos are the victim of our mere existence.
We don't dump all our garbage in the ocean because of our inability to prevent a single piece of garbage from entering the ocean, do we? Is it a hypocritical stance to take that we should do a better job of limiting and managing garbage in landfills because "**** it some garbage it still ending up in the ocean"?
Siamese Dream
Registered User
Bones Malone
Owner - HF Boards
bombers15
5-14-6-1
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It's not that individually making moral choices makes a person human, it's that it's our species is the only one that makes moral choices. Thus, we are distinct as a species. Babies and disabled people are just as human as everyone else. (And disabled people still make choices, by the way. And babies, unlike cows, will grow up to make choices.)
One of two things is true. Either human beings are moral beings or we are not. Let's examine what logically stems from that, and I think you'll find hypocrisy in your position no matter what.
A) Human beings are not moral beings.
-We cannot distinguish right from wrong.
-We are no different than animals.
-Thus, it's not wrong to kill animals.
B) Human beings are moral beings.
-Thus, we are distinct from other animals.
-Thus, it is incorrect to assert our worth as equal to every animal.
-You could then make the argument that it is not necessarily wrong for a higher species to take the life of a lower.
Finally, you have indeed been more vocal about cows and pigs than about insects. And considering that I kill a lot more insects than cows, it seems that you are misplaced in the behaviour you are trying to change. My eating habits don't actually kill that many animals. If you are really worried about reducing harm for animals (each of which have the same exact intrinsic worth) you should instead be sabotaging rail and roadways so that less insects get killed. You'll save more lives that way. Heck, you'll save more lives by sitting at home and not moving.
I get your point about limiting harm. Which is why focusing on meat-eaters seems strange to me. Because it means one of two things is true - either you actually do value cows/pigs/chickens more than other animals, or you are not engaging in the most effective means in limiting harm to all animals. You are caught in hypocrisy either way.
Siamese Dream
Registered User
"One of TJ's great personal contradictions is when he pretends to be all spiritual and accepting of everyone and everything and then hilariously acts in completely the opposite way. I'll point it out the next time he does it. Thanks for reminding me."
Humans kill over 100 billion animals per year for food. Add on top of that the bykill of other animals and insects in the agriculture involved in producing the feed for 60 billion of those farm animals and you have a whole ton of animals being killed. Now add in the destruction of environment and the pollution caused by raising and slaughtering those animals. That's sure a lot of harm from a greedy species who simply chooses it because "meat tastes good."
And you have the audacity to sit there and say veganism is "hypocritical," while others spew that "veganism makes no difference"?
And you have the audacity to sit there and say veganism is "hypocritical," while others spew that "veganism makes no difference"?
irunthepeg
Board man gets paid
bombers15
5-14-6-1
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Well, it is. But more to my point, it's especially hypocritical if you take the position that animals and humans are the same.
I'm not saying it's wrong either. I think we probably do eat too many animals, so go ahead and make that choice. But what I am saying is that your position is full of hypocrisy. And considering all of your vegan posts are about trying to point out the hypocrisy of meat-eaters, I just wanted to throw it back at you.
So TJ...I mean Chris, are these animals as evil as us? I mean by your logic they're murderers too.
What are we gonna do about them man?
rekt
That's actually not my point at all. I've only begun to point that out a bit of late after I was viciously attacked for pointing out the cognitive dissonance of posters who routinely brag about their meat eating yet were mourning a couple dogs whose lives were lost in Fort McMurray.
Bones Malone
Owner - HF Boards
WeWantTacos
they said aw-reety an' they was aw-righty
Shamu aka "Killa Whale" was arraigned in Southern California on Wednesday, charged with 18 counts of sea lion murder in the 1st degree. In his guilty plea he admitted to doing it on porpoise and was sentenced to 25 years to life and is serving his sentence in SeaWorld San Diego.
