Player Discussion Stuart Skinner

alanschu

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His confidence might be shaken ( it’s internal only if so) but he has an odd way of showing it by basically saying he played well and intimating that the team in front of him is to blame.

Jack Campbell did this as well, as did Mike Smith. I've never really taken as "it was the team in front of me issue" but more of a "This is me trying to convince myself to have a short memory and move on and not dwell on mistakes."

Not an expert in being a hockey goalie, but to me it feels like a goalie thing and possibly even reflective of some of the mental challenges the position entails.
 
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brentashton

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Jack Campbell did this as well, as did Mike Smith. I've never really taken as "it was the team in front of me issue" but more of a "This is me trying to convince myself to have a short memory and move on and not dwell on mistakes."

Not an expert in being a hockey goalie, but to me it feels like a goalie thing and possibly even reflective of some of the mental challenges the position entails.
Jack Campbell did not do that. He was the 180 degrees opposite. He would take blame for everything even when not his fault. I’m sure when the Zamboni water wasn’t warm enough he thought that was his fault too. That was part of Jack’s problem. His self esteem and confidence were always low.
 
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foshizzle

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This sounds a lot like a situation where there are 10 grade 5 teachers but one teacher keeps recommending her students get a tutor.

I have no idea how this guy is the one constant in 10 years when arguably the worst part of the team over 10 years is goaltending. GMs and coaches have both come and gone and he's still here.
Servalli said the same thing. He also added goalies regress under Schwartz and isn’t sure how he survived 10 years.
 
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alanschu

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Jack Campbell did not do that. He was the 180 degrees opposite. He would take blame for everything even when not his fault. I’m sure when the Zamboni water wasn’t warm enough he thought that was his fault too. That was part of Jack’s problem. His self esteem and confidence were always low.
Jack absolutely did when he got demoted.

 

foshizzle

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This is a bit misleading. He didn't hire a goalie coach. He hired a Certified High-Performance Exercise Kinesiologist. Adam Francilia works with lots of NHL goalies.
It isn’t misleading. Skinner used him to correct his stance. Mike Smith used him to fix his stance and noticed his hand stapled to his body and his hand speed was his strength- so he changed his hand positioning.

Francilia was a goalie consultant with the Sharks and a goalie coach for their farm team. To call him Kinsiologist is misleading. He also aids in the mental side of the game. You know, all things your goalie coach is supposed to help with
 

brentashton

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Jack absolutely did when he got demoted.

Maybe you can point me to the quotes that “absolutely” show this.

Here are some of the few quotes in the article.

"Tonight was just about getting out there," Campbell said postgame. "I think a lot of emotions, a lot of nerves. I want to play well for the group. ... I wanted to do well, didn't quite go as planned. For me, it's just about staying with my details.

"I have some things I've got to keep working on to get to the next level in my game, and that doesn't change whether I'm here or up in the NHL. Just gotta get to work tomorrow."

in what part of this article is he saying he played well and it’s not on him?
 

alanschu

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To be clear with my above, I think Jack has self-confidence issues in net for sure.

I would actually be surprised if he genuinely believed "I thought I was playing well" but I took it more as a "This is something I need to say for myself."

Stuart was someone that apologized for letting the team down after VAN Game 3 as well, so he can come clean with that responsibility as well. Much like Jack, I think he struggles with the short-memory part.

 

foshizzle

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I'd be willing to be that not 1 NHL goalie coach is in the gym putting together work outs for their goalies. Why do you expect Schwartz to be doing it? Do you expect him to act as their sports psychologist and athletic therapist as well?

Fine by me if you put the blame at his feet for the teams poor goaltending during his tenure, but don't use something like this to back up your opinion.
Skinner said he helped him with his stance. Would you say that is something a goaltending coach would spot? Mike Smith used him also to correct his stance. Woodley, of in goal magazine, said Francilia helped Smith free his hand, which was too low and too tight to his body. Francilia said Smith’s strongest asset is his hand speed and it is being hampered because of positioning. You know who works on hand positioning? The goalie coach. Also- like I mentioned in a previous post, Francilia was San Jose’s goalie consultant and coached their farm team- so yeah- he is also a goalie coach

Yup, I just posted about the Florida Department of Goaltending model in one of the threads. I believe this is totally the way to go to build up a holistic, systemic organizational approach. The Oilers have added a dedicated goaltender scout and the new head of amateur scouting was a goaltender so perhaps the organizational thinking will shift from afterthought to progressive, pro-active model to identify talent, nurture and develop it with a coherent team of coaching specialists.

The past decade of ignoring the game's most important position has been costly with both wasted draft picks and huge money overpayments (except for Smith). It almost came crashing down within this team's finite window if Skinner hadn't elevated beyond a mid-range goaltending prospect into a #1. Regarding Schwartz though I'm not sure he's a lone wolf. Think there's good collaboration with their minor league guy and he's worked collaboratively with Francilia for Smith bio refinements and technical tweaks. Likely mental coach(es) as well.
Even the flames started up a similar dept a couple of years ago. Teams recognize the importance of this position. They must have asked Schwartzy for his opinion and decided doing the same thing over and over again hoping for different results was the way to go instead
 

alanschu

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Maybe you can point me to the quotes that “absolutely” show this.

Bolded and made bigger for emphasis since I'm genuinely surprised that you missed it. Second paragraph. Honestly this feels like a bad faith response given the headline literally quotes him as well.

""(It was) pretty tough, not gonna lie," Campbell told reporters Thursday, including Sportsnet. "I'm pretty hard on myself, I think that's pretty well documented around the hockey world. Obviously, it's a results league up there - really anywhere - but I felt like I was playing well, had some confidence. But obviously, the numbers weren't good enough.""

This is the statline that Campbell had that had him say "I felt like I was playing well" in the NHL.

1716597529251.png



The stuff that you quoted was about his first game in the AHL. Which also was a struggle.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Skinner said he helped him with his stance. Would you say that is something a goaltending coach would spot? Mike Smith used him also to correct his stance. Woodley, of in goal magazine, said Francilia helped Smith free his hand, which was too low and too tight to his body. Francilia said Smith’s strongest asset is his hand speed and it is being hampered because of positioning. You know who works on hand positioning? The goalie coach. Also- like I mentioned in a previous post, Francilia was San Jose’s goalie consultant and coached their farm team- so yeah- he is also a goalie coach


Even the flames started up a similar dept a couple of years ago. Teams recognize the importance of this position. They must have asked Schwartzy for his opinion and decided doing the same thing over and over again hoping for different results was the way to go instead
Here's Francilia's specialization in his own words: For modern goalies, saves are just one part of the 'position of perfection'

Francilia, who originally trained athletes from a variety of sports, including powerlifting, football, gymnastics, and equestrian, zeroed in on goaltending as his niche about a decade ago. His sweeping objective: To optimize how goalies move physiologically in and out of various save techniques - or "stacks."

"As soon as a muscle turns off and you're in any sort of shape, compression, or bend, the load goes through the connective tissue. That's not good. If the muscles are on the tissues don't have to work as hard," Francilia said.

The longtime trainer, based in B.C.'s Okanagan Valley, interacts with his clients often during the season, calling, texting, or meeting in person. Most crucially, Francilia produces a weekly video featuring narrated clips of good and bad in-game postures and stances. A polished foundation is crucial.

The hope is that smooth biomechanics equal fewer injuries and more saves.

And a decent read about his work with Smith and Schwartz: Mike Smith never stopped fighting. A playoff run would be his ultimate redemption
 

brentashton

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Bolded and made bigger for emphasis since I'm genuinely surprised that you missed it. Second paragraph. Honestly this feels like a bad faith response given the headline literally quotes him as well.

""(It was) pretty tough, not gonna lie," Campbell told reporters Thursday, including Sportsnet. "I'm pretty hard on myself, I think that's pretty well documented around the hockey world. Obviously, it's a results league up there - really anywhere - but I felt like I was playing well, had some confidence. But obviously, the numbers weren't good enough.""

This is the statline that Campbell had that had him say "I felt like I was playing well" in the NHL.

View attachment 875435


The stuff that you quoted was about his first game in the AHL. Which also was a struggle.
Thank you for bolding what you were referring to but maybe your mouse battery died but should also bold the end of that quote where sums things up.

But obviously, the numbers weren't good enough."" His numbers. Not the team’s.
 

alanschu

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The longtime trainer, based in B.C.'s Okanagan Valley, interacts with his clients often during the season, calling, texting, or meeting in person. Most crucially, Francilia produces a weekly video featuring narrated clips of good and bad in-game postures and stances. A polished foundation is crucial.
I suspect this is probably the thing that happened recently that was causing the hubbub about Skinner reaching out to someone that wasn't Schwartz.

Thank you for bolding what you were referring to but maybe your mouse battery died but should also bold the end of that quote where sums things up.

But obviously, the numbers weren't good enough."" His numbers. Not the team’s.
I mean the dude isn't delusional to the fact that he just got demoted lol. Just like Skinner wasn't delusional about being pulled in Game 3 and apologizing for avoiding media and letting the team down.

Let me straight up ask: do you agree with Jack Campbell's assessment of himself that in his 5 NHL games this year, he played pretty well and with confidence?
 
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Pavel10

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It isn’t misleading. Skinner used him to correct his stance. Mike Smith used him to fix his stance and noticed his hand stapled to his body and his hand speed was his strength- so he changed his hand positioning.

Francilia was a goalie consultant with the Sharks and a goalie coach for their farm team. To call him Kinsiologist is misleading. He also aids in the mental side of the game. You know, all things your goalie coach is supposed to help with
It's amazing after 10 years how some posters will defend Schwartz.

I mean is this the guy who's dones
such a bang up job he has a decade of job security?

I remember the weekly media bashing of mikko. How skinner had meltdowns all last playoffs. Campbell was an NHL goalie til he came here. Smith had to get his own coach.

How could the same thing happen every single time?

Meanwhile Ian Clark can turn an Indonesian league backup into a 915 goalie.
 

brentashton

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I suspect this is probably the thing that happened recently that was causing the hubbub about Skinner reaching out to someone that wasn't Schwartz.


I mean the dude isn't delusional to the fact that he just got demoted lol. Just like Skinner wasn't delusional about being pulled in Game 3 and apologizing for avoiding media and letting the team down.

Let me straight up ask: do you agree with Jack Campbell's assessment of himself that in his 5 NHL games this year, he played pretty well and with confidence?
Im not interested in moving goalposts, as that is not what we were talking about. We’re talking about how he and Skinner “own” their performances when it’s not a solid outing.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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I suspect this is probably the thing that happened recently that was causing the hubbub about Skinner reaching out to someone that wasn't Schwartz.


I mean the dude isn't delusional to the fact that he just got demoted lol. Just like Skinner wasn't delusional about being pulled in Game 3 and apologizing for avoiding media and letting the team down.

Let me straight up ask: do you agree with Jack Campbell's assessment of himself that in his 5 NHL games this year, he played pretty well and with confidence?
It is. Was mentioned on last night's American broadcast without context. Some people are seeing that as some sort of slag on Schwartz (even though he worked with Smith and Francilia as a collaborative function). Same as some people wanted to see Jack Campbell asking to bring in Manny Legace to Bakersfield as some sort of magic bullet moment. Unfortunately Campbell was still the same mentally fragile goaltender.

Thinking a couple months part time work with a bio-mechanical specialist or any new goaltender guru is going to completely rebuild and reshape an established goaltenders technique, body mechanics, and mental game is pure folly.
 
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alanschu

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Im not interested in moving goalposts, as that is not what we were talking about. We’re talking about how he and Skinner “own” their performances when it’s not a solid outing.
This isn't a goal post move though....

Jack straight up says he was playing well with a .873. You are upset with Skinner saying that he played well even when he doesn't. Here was the line of yours I quoted: "by basically saying he played well and intimating that the team in front of him is to blame"

If you agree with Jack's self assessment at that time, you're probably the only person. But goalies in interviews often give cliches like this I feel, and I was specifically referring to say that they feel they played well.


I'm not sure where you thought goalposts I was talking about were if it wasn't about goalies saying they played well, but Stuart Skinner often says he plays well even when he plays poorly (IMO - at no point does he intimate that the team in front of him is to blame, that's a brentashton analysis of the situation). Jack Campbell also has said similar things. In fact, even when Jack straight up admits that he is often hard on himself, he still says he feels he was playing pretty well with an .873 save percentage and a 4.50 GAA. A position that I would say zero fans on this forum would actually believe, and one that I don't even think Jack himself believed.

My read of the situation:
Stuart Skinner's responses about playing well are about trying to balance the mental aspects of the position, just like Jack Campbell was doing when Jack said he also felt he was playing well when clearly he was not.


As someone that is overwhelmingly supportive of players wearing Oilers silks (me, to be clear), even I was very skeptical of Jack Campbell's assessment of his own play when he got demoted. But then, I'm not a hockey goalie and he'd hardly be the first goalie that gave textbook type answers in response to questioning. IMO just like Jack, Skinner is also quite hard on himself and I think it is reflected in the fact that when he gives up a bad goal, or a goal at a difficult time, he can often struggle afterwards.
 
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Behind Enemy Lines

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It's amazing after 10 years how some posters will defend Schwartz.

I mean is this the guy who's dones
such a bang up job he has a decade of job security?

I remember the weekly media bashing of mikko. How skinner had meltdowns all last playoffs. Campbell was an NHL goalie til he came here. Smith had to get his own coach.

How could the same thing happen every single time?

Meanwhile Ian Clark can turn an Indonesian league backup into a 915 goalie.
haha. Campbell is a 32 year old AHL goaltender with 176 NHL games. He burned through multiple NHL organizations trying to find his game, both physical and mental. The Leafs let him walk rather than investing term and money for a guy with a very thin NHL resume.

Schwartz has developed young goaltender prospects into NHL goaltenders including Skinner, Hart, Jarry, Broissoit. Three starters. There's evidence that given something to work with the results will follow. Skinner with his flaws as a mid-level prospect elevated to save this team from a catastrophic bad investment in Campbell that went pear shaped within a quarter of his first season in Edmonton. So bad that they had to give Campbell the first ever comprehensive sabbatical to try to find all elements of an NHL game, technical, mental, and physical.

Clarke is in an organization that values goaltending and for two decades have invested in high pedigree prospects or young established NHL goaltenders. He also has influence in amateur drafting there and a seven trait protocol to help guide qualified prospects that have solid baseline to draft and develop. Better positioned to do that when you have high-end, elite goaltending on the big club.

Kostinen was part of an organization failed strategy to plug in old, established 30 something goaltenders and think they can suddenly become quality starting goaltenders. Got lucky that Tippett knew and believed in Smith. Unlucky to bet $25 million on Jack Campbell despite all of the red flags.
 
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Pavel10

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haha. Campbell is a 32 year old AHL goaltender with 176 NHL games. He burned through multiple NHL organizations trying to find his game, both physical and mental. The Leafs let him walk rather than investing term and money for a guy with a very thin NHL resume.

Schwartz has developed young goaltender prospects into NHL goaltenders including Skinner, Hart, Jarry, Broissoit. Three starters. There's evidence that given something to work with the results will follow. Skinner with his flaws as a mid-level prospect elevated to save this team from a catastrophic bad investment in Campbell that went pear shaped within a quarter of his first season in Edmonton. So bad that they had to give Campbell the first ever comprehensive sabbatical to try to find all elements of an NHL game, technical, mental, and physical.

Clarke is in an organization that values goaltending and for two decades have invested in high pedigree prospects or young established NHL goaltenders. He also has influence in amateur drafting there and a seven trait protocol to help guide qualified prospects that have solid baseline to draft and develop. Better positioned to do that when you have high-end, elite goaltending on the big club.

Kostinen was part of an organization failed strategy to plug in old, established 30 something goaltenders and think they can suddenly become quality starting goaltenders. Got lucky that Tippett knew and believed in Smith. Unlucky to bet $25 million on Jack Campbell despite all of the red flags.
Actually a couple of factually incorrect points. Toronto wanted to resign Campbell. He felt insulted bumy by their low ball offer and genius Holland agreed 5 X 5 with him. Dubas was then scrambling to find a starter.

Also broissot is an excellent example of a goalie under Schwartz that failed miserably here and found success elsewhere.

I can imagine skinner with the right coach is going to look like dubnyk did when he left Edmonton.

Coaching actually does matter and Paul coffey proved it taking over from Dave Manson and turning the Oilers into a defensive powerhouse.

Even if you're going to defend Schwartz, like you are, has he done such an amazing job to not try someone new in 10+ years?
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Actually a couple of factually incorrect points. Toronto wanted to resign Campbell. He felt insulted bumy by their low ball offer and genius Holland agreed 5 X 5 with him. Dubas was then scrambling to find a starter.

Also broissot is an excellent example of a goalie under Schwartz that failed miserably here and found success elsewhere.

I can imagine skinner with the right coach is going to look like dubnyk did when he left Edmonton.

Coaching actually does matter and Paul coffey proved it taking over from Dave Manson and turning the Oilers into a defensive powerhouse.

Even if you're going to defend Schwartz, like you are, has he done such an amazing job to not try someone new in 10+ years?
The net effect is Campbell left the Leafs and likely no-one other than the Oilers were going to bet $25 million on a 30+ goaltender with such a slight resume. We saw quickly how this was a colossal bad and costly decision.

Broissot like the other three I mentioned were all junior prospect goaltenders coached by Schwartz who are became NHL goaltenders. Skinner and Hart specifically became NHL starting goaltenders early in their development. Jary too established himself as a #1 goaltender. Broissot, a 6rd round draft pick has beat the odds to become an NHL journeyman back-up. The Oilers have turned over multiple coaches since Broissot played games in Edmonton. The issue was always bigger than goaltending with huge variance in play notably horrible goal suppression and team defending.

Dubnyk, a first round pedigree goaltender, was given up on too early in Edmonton. Roadkill again on a perpetual rebuilding team that is textbook case study of how to not rebuild a hockey organization. Dubnyk took like three organizations to rebuild his confidence and game before realizing his high pedigree potential. The Oilers failed a lot of prospects playing above their abilities. Dubnyk is part of that roadkill as the final line of defense behind no defense, bad teams.

Coaching team defense and goaltending are too different things. Different positions, different skill sets and specialization required. Goaltending is probably the most mentally demanding position within sports with the red light going on or not behind them. Some fans will see the red light go on and blame the goalie without seeing the breakdowns that happen leading to the goal. Not surprising we've seen the goaltending improve and follow the team's renewed commitment to defending following each recent head coach fired with Woodcroft replacing Tippett and now Knoblauch replacing Woodcroft. Looks like things have finally stuck with this group in thanks to Coffey and Stewart under Knoblauch. Goal suppression and team defending were manta 1 when Tippett onboarded the organization. It's finally clicked in two head coaches later.

I'm not 'defending' Schwartz as much as asserting some facts within a coaching position that we see very little about and which requires technical support, confidence and motivation, load management, mental and physiological training and support. It's a position that doesn't exist in a vacuum and correlates often (at least in the Oilers case) with quality of team defending in front of their netminder. Fact is Skinner was to be a two-three year backup grooming to take over for Campbell through late state winning years. Instead he's kept his head above water - regular season results - in an absolutely white hot environment ready to run at winning a Cup. He was a mid-level prospect with flaws (not athletic, admittedly needed to work on his mental game, conditioning, and other areas) who is their defaulted #1 ride or die. I'm a bit amazed he hasn't cracked under this responsibility. But the team and coaching staff have trust in him.

Per Ian Clark's 7 goaltender foundational skills, I don't see Skinner having the natural athletic ability that he identifies as a pre-requisite for strong NHL goaltenders. He's still a work in progress with the mental strength and resiliency. But he seems to be a sponge for learning. I'm not confident Skinner would have much unrealized latent ability to blossom under different coaching.

I'm highly critical of the organization's approach to goaltender for over a decade it's been an afterthought trying to recycle old, largely average goaltenders and throwing mediocre draft picks hoping one might eventually make it. It's been a failing strategy that's now placed all eggs in the Stuart Skinner basket. But again to restate, Schwartz has succeeded in turning a pipeline of raw, junior goaltenders into NHL goalies. He just isn't a miracle worker who can turn retreads like Koskinen and Campbell into steady, reliable goaltenders.

Where I would consider firing Schwartz, as I've stated before, is his part with Brad Holland's pro scouting department in landing on Jack Campbell as this team's solution for the winning window years. But his development protege Skinner warts and all saved this organization's bacon by stepping into the void.
 
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Skinner said he helped him with his stance. Would you say that is something a goaltending coach would spot? Mike Smith used him also to correct his stance. Woodley, of in goal magazine, said Francilia helped Smith free his hand, which was too low and too tight to his body. Francilia said Smith’s strongest asset is his hand speed and it is being hampered because of positioning. You know who works on hand positioning? The goalie coach. Also- like I mentioned in a previous post, Francilia was San Jose’s goalie consultant and coached their farm team- so yeah- he is also a goalie coach

He wasn't the goalie coach for the farm team, Dany Sabourin was, Adam was a Goaltending Consultant for the Sharks and worked with the San Jose Barracuda as a Development Coach.
Here's an excerpt from an article about his role with the sharks. This is most likely how other goalies utilize Francilia as well. Goalie coaches don't have the technical background that a guy like Adam has. This makes him much more effective at fixing things like posture, stance, glove position. Why would a guy like Schwartz, Ian Clark, or Wade Flaherty try to correct something they aren't an expert in when they have a tool like Francilia available?
Nabokov, of course, plays a key role too when it comes to the Sharks’ goalies. The 14-year NHL veteran, who retired in 2015, is able to spot something he might not like in a goalie’s game and relay that information to Francilia, who will attempt to come up with an off-ice solution.

“I could go to Adam and say, ‘Hey, this goalie, his leg doesn’t go (quickly enough) on the push-across,'” Nabokov said. “Sometimes you tell the goalie, and he would say, ‘yeah, yeah, yeah,’ but he cannot do it. So the minute you see that they cannot do it on the ice, you know that the fix has got to be off the ice. Adam is the type of guy who’s been learning goaltending for a while, and he knows the specifics. He knows the body really well.”

Francilia said: “And I can look at it, break it down, and at this point now I can kind of see through the gear, so I can see what the body is doing under the gear. … It’s a really neat, collaborative joint venture where (Nabokov will) identify something through his eyes, and then I’ll take that and I’ll try to problem solve from there.”
 

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