Player Discussion Stuart Skinner

[Pavel10]

Because Schwartz isn't a Kinesiologist. Because Adam Francilia understands how the body moves and how to retrain it to move more efficiently for a goaltender. Adam has trained a handful of goalies that have been part of the oilers system. I wouldn't be surprised if Schwartz suggested that he hire Francilia.

Lots of top goaltenders go to him for supplemental training, that doesn't make their goalie coaches bad.

This sounds a lot like a situation where there are 10 grade 5 teachers but one teacher keeps recommending her students get a tutor.

I have no idea how this guy is the one constant in 10 years when arguably the worst part of the team over 10 years is goaltending. GMs and coaches have both come and gone and he's still here.

 

[ZJuice]

This is a bit misleading. He didn't hire a goalie coach. He hired a Certified High-Performance Exercise Kinesiologist. Adam Francilia works with lots of NHL goalies.

A CHPEK that allegedly helped an NHL goaltender with his “block form”.. sounds like he did a slight beat of coaching for a goaltender lol

With all of the defenders of Schwartz on here.. I assume all of the posters are either Schwartz or Lowetide

 

[Stoneman89]

I just find it funny, that whenever Skinner shits the bed, Schwartz gets pulled into the conversation as a crap goalie coach. But when Skinner is on a roll or has a great game, there is nothing mentioned. I'm not one way or the other on this, as I really don't have any facts as to whether this guy is a detriment or not, just pointing out the fickleness on here.

 

[Oil Gauge]

This sounds a lot like a situation where there are 10 grade 5 teachers but one teacher keeps recommending her students get a tutor.

I have no idea how this guy is the one constant in 10 years when arguably the worst part of the team over 10 years is goaltending. GMs and coaches have both come and gone and he's still here.

I'd be willing to be that not 1 NHL goalie coach is in the gym putting together work outs for their goalies. Why do you expect Schwartz to be doing it? Do you expect him to act as their sports psychologist and athletic therapist as well?

Fine by me if you put the blame at his feet for the teams poor goaltending during his tenure, but don't use something like this to back up your opinion.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I don't think I've ever seen him play so aggressively. He was challenging from the crease out the entire game. Played like a man on a mission

I've heard a few commentators say he was reacting to shots last night instead of his usual routine.

I also think that save on Dadonov in the opening minutes really did a ton for his and the team's confidence. That goes in and we are probably having a very different discussion right now.

Also seen some stats that show he plays better when he faces more shots.

 

[Oil Gauge]

A CHPEK that allegedly helped an NHL goaltender with his “block form”.. sounds like he did a slight beat of coaching for a goaltender lol

With all of the defenders of Schwartz on here.. I assume all of the posters are either Schwartz or Lowetide

The work he does with NHL goalies is predominantly done in the gym, to build a solid mechanical foundation that will translate onto the ice. Many NHL goalies use this guy, some of the best, with what I'd assume you consider to be the best goalie coaches in the league.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

It still points to the question of why he needed to hire him?

Seems like everyone that Schwartz touches needs a little extra help.

He's been in the org for 10 years and justifiably everyone wonders why he's survived multiple gm and head coach changes.

All sorts of goalies have goalie coaches as well as other guys who help them.
This narrative is funny.
I’m not a Skinner fan/believer. At all. He’s not an athlete. I have next to no faith in him.

But the narrative that he’s shitty due to Schwartz is comical ( particularly when Skinner had that same goalie coach when he was a rookie of the year finalist). It gives the goalie coach far far too much credit. And when he’s good it’s due to some other external factor makes it even more comical.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Because Schwartz isn't a Kinesiologist. Because Adam Francilia understands how the body moves and how to retrain it to move more efficiently for a goaltender. Adam has trained a handful of goalies that have been part of the oilers system. I wouldn't be surprised if Schwartz suggested that he hire Francilia.

Lots of top goaltenders go to him for supplemental training, that doesn't make their goalie coaches bad.

Doesn’t this get exhausting?
Like you have these guys who think there’s a gotcha. But the only gotcha is the exposure in not having a clue. And a bias.

 

[Oil Gauge]

Doesn’t this get exhausting?
Like you have these guys who think there’s a gotcha. But the only gotcha is the exposure in not having a clue. And a bias.

Yeah, I have no problem with people taking the stance that Schwartz is the problem. But at least offer some actual proof.

 

[Pavel10]

All sorts of goalies have goalie coaches as well as other guys who help them.
This narrative is funny.
I’m not a Skinner fan/believer. At all. He’s not an athlete. I have next to no faith in him.

But the narrative that he’s shitty due to Schwartz is comical ( particularly when Skinner had that same goalie coach when he was a rookie of the year finalist). It gives the goalie coach far far too much credit. And when he’s good it’s due to some other external factor makes it even more comical.

Im not saying he's "shitty due to Schwartz". Do you think there is no incremental improvement with an Ian Clark? The guy can turn lead into diamonds.

We were 1 goal away from an AHL goalie beating us for the Canucks. The oiler strategy is for the love of god don't let skinner face more than 15 shots, in game 7.

Coaching matters. We can even see that with woody and Knob.

Once again what has Schwartz done to be the lone survivor predating even mcdavid here?

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Im not saying he's "shitty due to Schwartz". Do you think there is no incremental improvement with an Ian Clark? The guy can turn lead into diamonds.

We were 1 goal away from an AHL goalie beating us for the Canucks. The oiler strategy is for the love of god don't let skinner face more than 15 shots, in game 7.

Coaching matters. We can even see that with woody and Knob.

Once again what has Schwartz done to be the lone survivor predating even mcdavid here?

i think it’s funny he’s a rookie of the year finalist. And that when he’s good it’s due to him. Or some other factor. And when he’s bad it’s due to Schwartz.
Maybe he’s bad goalie coach. Maybe he is good. Maybe the goalies he’s had to work with were by and large shit ( history kinda bares that out). Maybe the goalies were shitty because the team was shit. Who knows.
But to pin the goalies being shitty on the goalie coach is too funny.

 

[Pavel10]

i think it’s funny he’s a rookie of the year finalist. And that when he’s good it’s due to him. Or some other factor. And when he’s bad it’s due to Schwartz.
Maybe he’s bad goalie coach. Maybe he is good. Maybe the goalies he’s had to work with were by and large shit ( history kinda bares that out). Maybe the goalies were shitty because the team was shit. Who knows.
But to pin the goalies being shitty on the goalie coach is too funny.

I'm not sure if he's good as he's had a single amazing playoff game in 2 years. Maybe it's him maybe the coach is responsible.

I question how our goaltending looks with an Ian Clark tier coach.

I never expected Paul coffey to be this defensive minded sage but he's dunked on Dave Manson. Coaching matters. With the same players oilers are a fortress defensively.

Even the great Lundquist called out skinner and his tactics for being down too early, deep in his net and hoping the puck hits him.

That's tactics the goalie coach is responsible for.

 

[Oil Gauge]

Im not saying he's "shitty due to Schwartz". Do you think there is no incremental improvement with an Ian Clark? The guy can turn lead into diamonds.

We were 1 goal away from an AHL goalie beating us for the Canucks. The oiler strategy is for the love of god don't let skinner face more than 15 shots, in game 7.

Coaching matters. We can even see that with woody and Knob.

Once again what has Schwartz done to be the lone survivor predating even mcdavid here?

You shit on Schwartz because Skinner used Adam Francilia, then use Ian Clark as the picture of a perfect goalie coach. Demko is a client of Adam Francilia. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Pavel10]

You shit on Schwartz because Skinner used Adam Francilia, then use Ian Clark as the picture of a perfect goalie coach. Demko is a client of Adam Francilia. Your logic is flawed.

That is not the reason I "shit on Schwartz". I shit on Schwartz because of poor play of our goalies for a decade.

I long for the days of a goalie like demko. Anyways guys seems to be clearly untouchable here. No one knows why. Hell now Holland is going to be gone and much like an unkillable coachroach Schwartz will still survive.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I'm not sure if he's good as he's had a single amazing playoff game in 2 years. Maybe it's him maybe the coach is responsible.

I question how our goaltending looks with an Ian Clark tier coach.

I never expected Paul coffey to be this defensive minded sage but he's dunked on Dave Manson. Coaching matters. With the same players oilers are a fortress defensively.

Even the great Lundquist called out skinner and his tactics for being down too early, deep in his net and hoping the puck hits him.

That's tactics the goalie coach is responsible for.

Ian Clarke's a top goaltender coach. He's also worked within an organization that's prioritized goaltending with a run of pedigree ones for two decades either trade or drafting first round or high second. He's also involved in amateur drafting which we've seen adds value seeing potential in a raw guy like Silovs. He has a 7 key skill sets for quality goaltending which he divides out equally in importance: athleticism, competitiveness, instinctive ability, reactivity, technique, and visual talent. Short memory.
Details here:

Conversely, the Oilers have had no strategy for goaltending. It's been a graveyard of recycling older veteran guys and volume flipping mid/late round draft picks hoping to find a prospect who might turn into an NHL goaltender. Highly expensive and in-efficient approach that didn't work until their big money guy Campbell failed and the rookie mid-level prospect Skinner stepped up.

What you describe are bad habits within Skinner's game. It's not necessarily tied to coaching. Looking through the Ian Clarke lens its 17% of the big picture where I'd rate Skinner from my limited context as lacking athleticism, maybe average instinctive ability, reactivity, and visual talent. But high competitiveness and solid resiliency to absorb starter goaltender responsibilities as a rookie on a winning window team in his hometown. He has critical developmental areas but this team would have been hooped had Skinner not stepped up at least in regular season play.

Regarding Schwartz there is evidence he has nurtured prospect development phase goaltenders into regular NHL goaltenders with Skinner, Hart, Boissoit. At the same time Talbot has only been a short-term journeyman across multiple organizations since leaving Edmonton.

I think for some there is a distorted or incomplete impression and expectations of the role and work of a goaltender coach. Here's another good Ian Clarke podcast that discusses the coaching role. About the 30 minute mark is some good detail about the work with Bob including being a 'North Star" to keep the player focused on core foundation for success:

I'd consider firing Schwartz over whatever his role was in identifying Campbell as this team's big money bet during its finite winning window. But his protege has saved this organization's bacon having to step up in this mess. I also think the Oilers were firmly targeting Cossa in the draft before Detroit snaked it moving up to get him.

 

[Oil Gauge]

That is not the reason I "shit on Schwartz". I shit on Schwartz because of poor play of our goalies for a decade.

I long for the days of a goalie like demko. Anyways guys seems to be clearly untouchable here. No one knows why. Hell now Holland is going to be gone and much like an unkillable coachroach Schwartz will still survive.

You definitely used that as a slight against Schwartz.

"This sounds a lot like a situation where there are 10 grade 5 teachers but one teacher keeps recommending her students get a tutor."

 

[McDNicks17]

The work he does with NHL goalies is predominantly done in the gym, to build a solid mechanical foundation that will translate onto the ice. Many NHL goalies use this guy, some of the best, with what I'd assume you consider to be the best goalie coaches in the league.

It sounds like it's a little more balanced than that.

His main focus seems to be training that mechanical foundation in the gym, but there's a big on ice component too. Smith, for example, changed his stance, footwork, hand placement and how he tracked pucks with Francilia.

 

[McDNicks17]

Ian Clarke's a top goaltender coach. He's also worked within an organization that's prioritized goaltending with a run of pedigree ones for two decades either trade or drafting first round or high second. He's also involved in amateur drafting which we've seen adds value seeing potential in a raw guy like Silovs. He has a 7 key skill sets for quality goaltending which he divides out equally in importance: athleticism, competitiveness, instinctive ability, reactivity, technique, and visual talent. Short memory.
Details here:

Conversely, the Oilers have had no strategy for goaltending. It's been a graveyard of recycling older veteran guys and volume flipping mid/late round draft picks hoping to find a prospect who might turn into an NHL goaltender. Highly expensive and in-efficient approach that didn't work until their big money guy Campbell failed and the rookie mid-level prospect Skinner stepped up.

What you describe are bad habits within Skinner's game. It's not necessarily tied to coaching. Looking through the Ian Clarke lens its 17% of the big picture where I'd rate Skinner from my limited context as lacking athleticism, maybe average instinctive ability, reactivity, and visual talent. But high competitiveness and solid resiliency to absorb starter goaltender responsibilities as a rookie on a winning window team in his hometown. He has critical developmental areas but this team would have been hooped had Skinner not stepped up at least in regular season play.

Regarding Schwartz there is evidence he has nurtured prospect development phase goaltenders into regular NHL goaltenders with Skinner, Hart, Boissoit. At the same time Talbot has only been a short-term journeyman across multiple organizations since leaving Edmonton.

I think for some there is a distorted or incomplete impression and expectations of the role and work of a goaltender coach. Here's another good Ian Clarke podcast that discusses the coaching role. About the 30 minute mark is some good detail about the work with Bob including being a 'North Star" to keep the player focused on core foundation for success:

I'd consider firing Schwartz over whatever his role was in identifying Campbell as this team's big money bet during its finite winning window. But his protege has saved this organization's bacon having to step up in this mess. I also think the Oilers were firmly targeting Cossa in the draft before Detroit snaked it moving up to get him.

Clark is great, but I feel like Florida is the team to emulate. There's no reason Katz can't spend the money and have a "Department of Goaltending Excellence" or whatever they call it too.

Hire some well respected experts like Francois Allaire and Luongo. Have two or three goalie coaches who collaborate and work with the NHL, AHL and prospects. Have an entire scouting department dedicated to scouting goalies.

It just seems so weird to have a single guy doing 95% of that in this day and age.

 

[Oil Gauge]

It sounds like it's a little more balanced than that.

His main focus seems to be training that mechanical foundation in the gym, but there's a big on ice component too. Smith, for example, changed his stance, footwork, hand placement and how he tracked pucks with Francilia.

You obviously need to use on ice to identify inefficiencies and to implement the revamped mechanics. From what I've gathered from listening to him though the bulk of the "reprogramming" is done in the gym. Then it's implemented on ice.

 

[McDNicks17]

You obviously need to use on ice to identify inefficiencies and to implement the revamped mechanics. From what I've gathered from listening to him though the bulk of the "reprogramming" is done in the gym. Then it's implemented on ice.

Basically it sounds like his philosophy is about core strength and how the body flows together. They work in the gym on that, but there's also lots of technical reprogramming too.

Like I said with Smith, they worked to narrow his stance, keep his arms tighter to his body and less "detached" and changed how he moved his head to track pucks. That isn't stuff you can learn in the gym.

 

[Pavel10]

You definitely used that as a slight against Schwartz.

"This sounds a lot like a situation where there are 10 grade 5 teachers but one teacher keeps recommending her students get a tutor."

Yes this is an additional point but not the sole reason. You're disregarding the litany of other issues with Schwartz.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Clark is great, but I feel like Florida is the team to emulate. There's no reason Katz can't spend the money and have a "Department of Goaltending Excellence" or whatever they call it too.

Hire some well respected experts like Francois Allaire and Luongo. Have two or three goalie coaches who collaborate and work with the NHL, AHL and prospects. Have an entire scouting department dedicated to scouting goalies.

It just seems so weird to have a single guy doing 95% of that in this day and age.

Yup, I just posted about the Florida Department of Goaltending model in one of the threads. I believe this is totally the way to go to build up a holistic, systemic organizational approach. The Oilers have added a dedicated goaltender scout and the new head of amateur scouting was a goaltender so perhaps the organizational thinking will shift from afterthought to progressive, pro-active model to identify talent, nurture and develop it with a coherent team of coaching specialists.

The past decade of ignoring the game's most important position has been costly with both wasted draft picks and huge money overpayments (except for Smith). It almost came crashing down within this team's finite window if Skinner hadn't elevated beyond a mid-range goaltending prospect into a #1. Regarding Schwartz though I'm not sure he's a lone wolf. Think there's good collaboration with their minor league guy and he's worked collaboratively with Francilia for Smith bio refinements and technical tweaks. Likely mental coach(es) as well.

 

[Fishy McScales]

Francilia to Skinner after all these years with Schwartz.

 

[NegativeNelly]

What worries me about Skinner is when he lets in a weak goal, his confidence gets shook, leading to more bad goals. It was great to see him play very well last night. Traditionally he sucks after having a good game. Let's hope he nails a board behind him tomorrow.

 

[brentashton]

What worries me about Skinner is when he lets in a weak goal, his confidence gets shook, leading to more bad goals. It was great to see him play very well last night. Traditionally he sucks after having a good game. Let's hope he nails a board behind him tomorrow.

His confidence might be shaken ( it’s internal only if so) but he has an odd way of showing it by basically saying he played well and intimating that the team in front of him is to blame. That is a characteristic of his “always confident” that I can absolutely do without.

His book of work so far is like a Playboy magazine when you’re 11 years old. Your expecting glossy photos of nudes on every page but eventually you realize that there are 12 pages of naked pictures and a whole lot of articles from Kurt Vonnegut, Hunter S. Thompson, Norman Mailer etc. and advertising.

Like I said, he’s what we got, I hope he arrives this play off and can move up in the standings as worst play off goalie in the salary cap era.