Proposal: STL-EDM (including Draisaitl)

[bucks_oil]

The Blues fan was correcting an assessment of one player in the proposal and the Edmonton fan goes on a long rant in direct response about how the whole deal doesn't make sense as if that is remotely relevant to the comment about Thomas and you're here like "BOOM! WE WIN!" What are you even doing.

A response on topic to the OP is never off topic, right?

A response defending a player can easily be interpreted of (in the very least) offering a rationale for why he's included in the deal. The rationale spoke to a need that the Oilers don't have.

Thus I commented on that and gave my opinion on the OP, since it's the same point: it doesn't address the Oilers needs.

If you read through it again in that light, I'm sure you can agree it was a) on topic and b) not a rant.

 

[PocketNines]

And this was achieved by offering a 4/5 defenceman and a goalie with worse numbers this year than Mikko Koskinen, and that's signed for infinity?

I'm not saying Mikkola is nothing, but in a trade for Leon Draisaitl, he's a throw-in. Binnington I'm not convinced even has positive value at the moment, all things considered.

Binnington last three years

59-36-18, .909

Koskinen last three years

46-34-4, .908

I don't know why the bottom has fallen out of Binnington this year, but I definitely don't want to be the Ottawa Senators to Binnington's Matt Murray while giving up Draisaitl for the trouble.

None of this is responsive to a word I wrote, so I skimmed it without caring,

 

[PocketNines]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Don't disagree with any of it with the exception of:

Unless Draisaitl is asking for a trade in his final two seasons, he's bringing a kings ransom. If a star level player demands a trade, and has limited destinations, the return is constrained - I agree.

But Drai is not a star level player. He's a perennial MVP candidate in his prime on (I'd argue) the league's best $8.5M contract at least for its duration. Edmonton, being not a prime destination, suggests that his list of desirable places to go would not be that constrained, so the bidding war would be through the roof... anybody can fit him in (and as this thread confirms, would likely SHED cap in the process in trying to come up with a reasonable return) and ALL would at least make an offer.

For me, it's unnecessary to parse between all-star and perennial MVP values in a hypothetical future where he has demanded out. Again, a Florida fan made the thread. You see Blues fans acknowledging who the best player in the deal is but also pretty consistently you've heard Blues fans say it doesn't help us win the Cup if it makes our worst area worse. We are trying to win the Cup. We think if we get the right player there we can actually do it. Edmonton is 6-7 pieces away, it's just a different story.

 

[PocketNines]

A response on topic to the OP is never off topic, right?

A response defending a player can easily be interpreted of (in the very least) offering a rationale for why he's included in the deal. The rationale spoke to a need that the Oilers don't have.

Thus I commented on that and gave my opinion on the OP, since it's the same point: it doesn't address the Oilers needs.

If you read through it again in that light, I'm sure you can agree it was a) on topic and b) not a rant.

You were arguing with the Blues fan about the single point he made. It's not "off-topic," but it's a clear failure to understand the scope of the person's point to whom you're responding. You're right it wasn't a rant, but you did put that poster in the awkward position of defending points he wasn't contesting even slightly. If you had not been quoting anyone then it would have worked a lot better which is why I responded to that part of it at face value.

 

[TFHockey]

For me, it's unnecessary to parse between all-star and perennial MVP values in a hypothetical future where he has demanded out. Again, a Florida fan made the thread. You see Blues fans acknowledging who the best player in the deal is but also pretty consistently you've heard Blues fans say it doesn't help us win the Cup if it makes our worst area worse. We are trying to win the Cup. We think if we get the right player there we can actually do it. Edmonton is 6-7 pieces away, it's just a different story.

Close, 2-3 pieces away.

Anyway, we can let this thread die a quiet death. Draisaitl wouldn't be traded for that kind of offer. If fact between him and McDavid I don't think he'd be the one to be traded at all.

 

[TomKosto]

and even then oilers can make a trade with buffalo for tuch and thompson and it wouldnt cost drai. and that would solidify 1st, 2nd, and 3rd lines on rw with them and JP.

What can they trade for Tuch and Thompson that won't make holes elsewhere, really curious?!

 

[PocketNines]

Close, 2-3 pieces away.

Anyway, we can let this thread die a quiet death. Draisaitl wouldn't be traded for that kind of offer. If fact between him and McDavid I don't think he'd be the one to be traded at all.

IMO Edmonton needs probably two real top end defensemen, a #1 goalie and a whole supplemental scoring line that's far more consistent than what you have. I think the Oilers are a long way away. It's one of the thinner teams in the league. You really need depth to seriously contend.

 

[BleedBlue14]

My point is that I just don't see the rationale for us to trade the 2nd-5th best player in the league, who's on a sweetheart contract for this.

Where is the motivation for Edmonton?

With no disrespect,

• Binnington is a B+ starter in my view. He's been great and also inconsistent. He'd be a great add in a Draisaitl deal, but not the main value driver.
• Robert Thomas is a solid young centerman that we only need if we're trading Drai... and obviously a big downgrade, so that means the pieces we are getting back need to fill a primary need at G or LD. As above, Binnington is passable, but not motivating me to make a deal.
• Buchnevich is a solid contributor, but we'd be paying him 75% of Drai's the salary for <50% of the production. Plus... we aren't weak at wing anymore... again zero motivation here.
• Mikkola? Yeah, never heard of him and I think I can be forgiven for that. 25 years old, hasn't completed a full NHL season, projects to be a 20 point guy. What am I missing here and why is he centerpiece in a deal for Draisaitl? Noting here that he and Binnington are the only two guys that meet a positional need for us... back to motivation to do this deal? BLECH!

Also, am I the only one that noticed:

• In addition to not addressing our needs in a motivating way, we TAKE ON SALARY on this deal? $8.5M out the door, but $15.5M coming back
• Kyrou, who would be intriguing hasn't even been offered... am I to assume he's untouchable for the 2nd-5th best player in the league I guess? Nonsense.

Tell me again how this helps Edmonton? (vs just keeping Drai and trading our 1st for the best goalie we can get)

I don’t disagree that Edmonton probably shouldn’t make this trade unless there are circumstances forcing their hand to make a move.

I would venture to guess no Kyrou wouldn’t be off the table. However, trading away the depth for top end talent may not be extremely beneficial for us given our offenses production.

My main point was regarding Thomas being called spare parts when he’s pretty clearly a young top 6 center. There wasn’t meant to be a slight on Draisaitl nor was I trying to say that Edmonton should make the deal

 

[Sniped90]

What can they trade for Tuch and Thompson that won't make holes elsewhere, really curious?!

Well more than likely youre adding JP, Yamo, 1st, prospect, and barrie. Which im perfectly fine with giving up for them.

 

[TomKosto]

Well more than likely youre adding JP, Yamo, 1st, prospect, and barrie. Which im perfectly fine with giving up for them.

You need a center in that deal and I dont see Buffalo trading their local boy in Tuch.

 

[Sniped90]

You need a center in that deal and I dont see Buffalo trading their local boy in Tuch.

then more likely they take probably JP out and add in holloway.

 

[andora]

hes not worth it because oilers have better players than him, im not being clueless at all like i said first of all oilers are not in a need of a player like him nor would they want a player like him in a trade for drai. not sure how your brain is going about this but ive explained this quite well over and over again which you seem to avoid reading or understanding im not sure which one though

Wow

I always thought thomas and kyrou were a couple of the best kept secrets in the league and i think this proves it in part

Robert thomas is a future core all zone forward as there is in my opinion, you could tell this two years ago, him and kyrou are transitional jewels as perron and schenn peter out

 

[HighNote]

Why do people keep talking about depth?

has nobody outside of Edmonton been paying attention to us?

By playoff time we could be running:

Kane-McDavid-Puljujarvi
Hyman-Draisaitl-Yamamoto
Holloway-RNH-Foegele
Whoever-McLeod-Kassian

Top 6 is fantastic. Bottom 6 is pretty bad if you're wanting to contend for a Cup. Having a McDavid and a Draisaitl does mean that you need to worry a bit less about being deep at forward, but if that's what the lines will be looking like I just don't think it's gonna cut it. RNH is nice, but beyond that it's pretty meh. Maybe, if Holloway can come in an be a difference maker right away it could be alright, but I wouldn't count on it. Then you run into injuries and it starts getting real worrisome. I'd say you could get away with that forward group if you had a solid combination of defense and goaltending. Unfortunately, Edmonton does not have that.

 

[Dust]

Wow

I always thought thomas and kyrou were a couple of the best kept secrets in the league and i think this proves it in part

Robert thomas is a future core all zone forward as there is in my opinion, you could tell this two years ago, him and kyrou are transitional jewels as perron and schenn peter out

I don't think this trade proposal is great, but there's no denying that Thomas and Kyrou are great young players. Feels like he's been in the league longer but Thomas is only 22.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

None of this is responsive to a word I wrote, so I skimmed it without caring,

I helpfully bolded the part I was replying to. How does a struggling goalie with a fat contract and a 4/5 defenceman meet the Oilers perceived needs at defence and goaltending *at all*?

This trade is downgrading for the sake of downgrading and nothing more. St Louis does OP’s deal in a nanosecond.

 

[Sniped90]

Wow

I always thought thomas and kyrou were a couple of the best kept secrets in the league and i think this proves it in part

Robert thomas is a future core all zone forward as there is in my opinion, you could tell this two years ago, him and kyrou are transitional jewels as perron and schenn peter out

Im not saying theyre horrible players just thomas doesnt fit in with the oilers currently

 

[PocketNines]

I helpfully bolded the part I was replying to. How does a struggling goalie with a fat contract and a 4/5 defenceman meet the Oilers perceived needs at defence and goaltending *at all*?

This trade is downgrading for the sake of downgrading and nothing more. St Louis does OP’s deal in a nanosecond.

You responded to my post which points out a Florida fan made the post and thus Blues fans have 0.00000000000% obligation to answer for it.

And you're still pressing me for a justification for the OP. Is there something wrong with your reading skills because you seem to have a lot of trouble. Just try this, try mentally separating out which people are saying what, and then ask the people who are saying the things you disagree with to explain themselves.

 

[thadd]

Edmonton gives: Top 3 player in the world + camp dump that expires at the end of the season.
Edmonton gets: top 6 winger, top 6 forward with first line potential, big LHD with 2nd pairing potential and an even bigger camp dump than the one they're giving up that expires in 2027.

...

Wat?

I missed the punchline.

 

[BleedBlue14]

Edmonton gives: Top 3 player in the world + camp dump that expires at the end of the season.
Edmonton gets: top 6 winger, top 6 forward with first line potential, big LHD with 2nd pairing potential and an even bigger camp dump than the one they're giving up that expires in 2027.

...

Wat?

I missed the punchline.

Camp dump

Realistically you aren’t far off with your evaluation. I don’t think Binnington nor Koskinen are necessarily “camp dumps” however neither is performing like a number 1. I would say that Buch could be pretty easily perceived as more of a top line winger as opposed to top 6 but that’s just splitting hairs. Thomas realistically has the skill set of a top line center but he needs to shoot a little more and clean up a few of his “creative mistakes” to get there.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

You responded to my post which points out a Florida fan made the post and thus Blues fans have 0.00000000000% obligation to answer for it.

And you're still pressing me for a justification for the OP. Is there something wrong with your reading skills because you seem to have a lot of trouble. Just try this, try mentally separating out which people are saying what, and then ask the people who are saying the things you disagree with to explain themselves.

i am responding to what *you* said. Stop cowering behind OP and back up *your* justification, which - again - I helpfully bolded, as you’re the one seeming to lack reading comprehension.

 

[TFHockey]

IMO Edmonton needs probably two real top end defensemen, a #1 goalie and a whole supplemental scoring line that's far more consistent than what you have. I think the Oilers are a long way away. It's one of the thinner teams in the league. You really need depth to seriously contend.

Well, we agree on two defensemen (I'd say top four x2) and a 1A goalie.

You may not be aware how the Kane signing has impacted the line up. It has improved our depth a lot, especially when RNH is moved to the 3c role and playing with Hyman. The top nine look really good as a result. Tippett being Tippett, he over relies on veterans and avoids scratching Derek Ryan. McLeod is a great 4C and probably too skilled, like RNH is, to play that position.

The center depth on the Oilers is McDavid - Draisaitl - RNH - McLeod. I'd rated that as excellent, as good as any in the west.

LW depth goes Kane - Hyman - Foegele - Shore which is really good.

RW depth foes Puljuarjvi - Yamamoto - Kassian - Derek Ryan (when moved from center) which is okay but not great. Maybe the Oilers could use another RW instead of either Kassian or Yamamoto, but I don't think they need to replace both.

Defense depth is the issue here.

Nurse - Bouchard (The top pairing for a long time is my guess)
Keith - Ceci (I'd rather they play in the 5-6 role which would mean great depth)
Lagesson - Russell (with Barrie out, which blows)

So on defense we should see:

Nurse - Bouchard
XXXX - XXXX
Keith - Ceci

which would be a playoff level team defense.

and in goal:

XXXX
Koskinen/smith/Skinner


The Oilers are closer than you realize.

 

[IIxGURUxII]

Oilers do not need another Koskinen ... no thanks
Thomas is a great 1/2 line player, but does not fill a need the Oilers already have

interested in Mik for sure solid 2nd 3rd liner with some upside

 

[PocketNines]

i am responding to what *you* said. Stop cowering behind OP and back up *your* justification, which - again - I helpfully bolded, as you’re the one seeming to lack reading comprehension.

I told you I skimmed your very low reading comprehension reply. If you are questioning whether the proposal is more designed to meet Edmonton needs, than Blues needs, it obviously is. Hello McFly. You need a goalie and a defenseman. A third party fan put one together for a goalie and defenseman. Yes I get it you don't think the goalie and defensemen you are getting are any good, so therefore it doesn't meet your needs. On the other hand, Blues are fine at forward and their needs are left defense and someone proposed a way to shed left defense. So my statement is obviously true and it's true right this second as you struggle to comprehend.

 

[PocketNines]

Well, we agree on two defensemen (I'd say top four x2) and a 1A goalie.

You may not be aware how the Kane signing has impacted the line up. It has improved our depth a lot, especially when RNH is moved to the 3c role and playing with Hyman. The top nine look really good as a result. Tippett being Tippett, he over relies on veterans and avoids scratching Derek Ryan. McLeod is a great 4C and probably too skilled, like RNH is, to play that position.

The center depth on the Oilers is McDavid - Draisaitl - RNH - McLeod. I'd rated that as excellent, as good as any in the west.

LW depth goes Kane - Hyman - Foegele - Shore which is really good.

RW depth foes Puljuarjvi - Yamamoto - Kassian - Derek Ryan (when moved from center) which is okay but not great. Maybe the Oilers could use another RW instead of either Kassian or Yamamoto, but I don't think they need to replace both.

Defense depth is the issue here.

Nurse - Bouchard (The top pairing for a long time is my guess)
Keith - Ceci (I'd rather they play in the 5-6 role which would mean great depth)
Lagesson - Russell (with Barrie out, which blows)

So on defense we should see:

Nurse - Bouchard
XXXX - XXXX
Keith - Ceci

which would be a playoff level team defense.

and in goal:

XXXX
Koskinen/smith/Skinner


The Oilers are closer than you realize.

I am not going to concede anything on your offense but I really want to make clear I am not interested in parsing your players. I've watched hockey for decades, I am familiar with the Edmonton situation where there's lots of words written about how much better they are than anyone gives them credit for and then the same thing happens. So I am in a show-me mode on the offense.

That aside, two major defensive pieces and a major goaltender (the last guy besides Vasilevsky to win a Cup – who did it with a personal willfulness that bothers people – and who is obviously not good enough for the princes of quality up in Alberta) is a lot of pieces. Nurse-Bouchard as your top pair is a wish and a prayer. It's among the worse defenses in hockey. It is a major project to get one piece that you need. You need a lot of pieces and they have to be drafted from within and few franchises are worse at drafting.

 

[TFHockey]

I am not going to concede anything on your offense but I really want to make clear I am not interested in parsing your players. I've watched hockey for decades, I am familiar with the Edmonton situation where there's lots of words written about how much better they are than anyone gives them credit for and then the same thing happens. So I am in a show-me mode on the offense.

That aside, two major defensive pieces and a major goaltender (the last guy besides Vasilevsky to win a Cup – who did it with a personal willfulness that bothers people – and who is obviously not good enough for the princes of quality up in Alberta) is a lot of pieces. Nurse-Bouchard as your top pair is a wish and a prayer. It's among the worse defenses in hockey. It is a major project to get one piece that you need. You need a lot of pieces and they have to be drafted from within and few franchises are worse at drafting.

I read a lot of saltiness in your reply. Suffice to say that I have also watched NHL hockey for decades and we disagree.

Regardless, in getting back to the OP, I don't think this trade addresses what the Oilers need to do to fix the remaining holes in their line up. This is not a slight against the Blues players involved (perhaps Binnington, not intended) but an overall view on what works for Edmonton.