Stephen Weiss

TheOtherOne

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Jan 2, 2010
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I don't know why you guys want to slide Weiss to center. I mean I'm clearly in Weiss's corner at this point- it's silly how he still gets 9 min per game and is healthy scratched ahead of Jurco et al. despite leading most of the team in production. But at the same time- he has never played center for the Red Wings. I mean okay, if you want to try it at the beginning of the season, that's fine. But you want to experiment with a relatively new guy in a relatively new system in a position we've never seen him in before, 2 games before the playoffs? I could do without that experiment. We have enough centers already.
 

Rzombo4 prez

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May 17, 2012
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I don't know why you guys want to slide Weiss to center. I mean I'm clearly in Weiss's corner at this point- it's silly how he still gets 9 min per game and is healthy scratched ahead of Jurco et al. despite leading most of the team in production. But at the same time- he has never played center for the Red Wings. I mean okay, if you want to try it at the beginning of the season, that's fine. But you want to experiment with a relatively new guy in a relatively new system in a position we've never seen him in before, 2 games before the playoffs? I could do without that experiment. We have enough centers already.

I agree, but this is really a function of his skating, not the system we play. Although his skating has improved since last year, he no longer skates well enough to play center at the NHL level on any sort of regular basis, even in a bottom six capacity. This still isn't the Weiss that we saw a couple years back in FLA. The head and hands are still there, but the legs just aren't. He can still be productive playing on the wing, however.
 

Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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I don't know why you guys want to slide Weiss to center. I mean I'm clearly in Weiss's corner at this point- it's silly how he still gets 9 min per game and is healthy scratched ahead of Jurco et al. despite leading most of the team in production. But at the same time- he has never played center for the Red Wings. I mean okay, if you want to try it at the beginning of the season, that's fine. But you want to experiment with a relatively new guy in a relatively new system in a position we've never seen him in before, 2 games before the playoffs? I could do without that experiment. We have enough centers already.

At this point, if we get some guys back, I'd try it because I'd rather have him on the ice than Andersson and I like having Datsyuk and Z on the same line. Weiss has been with the team for two seasons now, though he lost last season to injury. If he doesn't get the system well enough to play center by now, he's never going to get it. And if he's not going to get it, we need to cut our losses this summer. If it's a question of his simply not being able to physically handle the work load at center, I still think we need to cut our losses.

When is the last time we reached the end of the season and had a healthy Datsyuk? And Z has had uncharacteristic slumps this season where we've seen him elevate his game in the past. We need to be able to lighten their burden a bit over the course of a season. Weiss has a capable middle6 center could allow us to pair Z&D and lighten their minutes a bit. At the very least, I think this needs to happen for Datsyuk, who hasn't given us a full 80 game season since 09/10.
 

Frk It

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Jul 27, 2010
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At this point, if we get some guys back, I'd try it because I'd rather have him on the ice than Andersson and I like having Datsyuk and Z on the same line. Weiss has been with the team for two seasons now, though he lost last season to injury. If he doesn't get the system well enough to play center by now, he's never going to get it. And if he's not going to get it, we need to cut our losses this summer. If it's a question of his simply not being able to physically handle the work load at center, I still think we need to cut our losses.

When is the last time we reached the end of the season and had a healthy Datsyuk? And Z has had uncharacteristic slumps this season where we've seen him elevate his game in the past. We need to be able to lighten their burden a bit over the course of a season. Weiss has a capable middle6 center could allow us to pair Z&D and lighten their minutes a bit. At the very least, I think this needs to happen for Datsyuk, who hasn't given us a full 80 game season since 09/10.

Put Dats and Z with Abby when he comes back, Sheahan on line 2, and Helm centering line 3.

It's clear Babcock will not use Weiss at center, even as an emergency. I would love to know why, but I don't see it changing any time soon.
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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Put Dats and Z with Abby when he comes back, Sheahan on line 2, and Helm centering line 3.

It's clear Babcock will not use Weiss at center, even as an emergency. I would love to know why, but I don't see it changing any time soon.

It's the lack of skating ability. Bread and butter for Red Wings centers.
 

joe89

#5
Apr 30, 2009
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Andersson at least knows how to play defence, Weiss won't.

I don't think Weiss skates THAT bad. It's definitely defense that keeps Weiss from C. Though for me personally, Weiss could get a bigger role on the team. But a lot of guys are fairly similar in output so Babcock will play the safer guy. I also agree with keeping the 4th line a 4th line.
 

TheOtherOne

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Jan 2, 2010
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At this point, if we get some guys back, I'd try it because I'd rather have him on the ice than Andersson and I like having Datsyuk and Z on the same line. Weiss has been with the team for two seasons now, though he lost last season to injury. If he doesn't get the system well enough to play center by now, he's never going to get it. And if he's not going to get it, we need to cut our losses this summer. If it's a question of his simply not being able to physically handle the work load at center, I still think we need to cut our losses.

When is the last time we reached the end of the season and had a healthy Datsyuk? And Z has had uncharacteristic slumps this season where we've seen him elevate his game in the past. We need to be able to lighten their burden a bit over the course of a season. Weiss has a capable middle6 center could allow us to pair Z&D and lighten their minutes a bit. At the very least, I think this needs to happen for Datsyuk, who hasn't given us a full 80 game season since 09/10.

Ok I can get behind your reasoning. Who are our potential centers then? Z, Dats, Shea, Helm, Glen, Andy, Weiss. Am I missing anyone? Then if Helm is much better on the wing (I think he is), and if Z and Dats should play together (debatable), then in that case we need to choose two of Glen, Andy, Weiss. That's fair enough, I wouldn't mind giving him a shot.
 

JPE123

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Jan 23, 2013
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To me, lack of defensive play is the reason Weiss isn't playing. I think probably him and Babcock have a personality clash also but his defensive game is almost non existent.
 

Winger98

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Andersson at least knows how to play defence, Weiss won't.

By the same token Weiss has an offensive game that Andersson doesn't. Right now it's really a collection of specialists that Babcock throws on the ice when he has to. It's not defensively responsible enough to get a regular shift, and it's not offensively skilled enough to grab a bunch of offensive zone starts and expect to do anything with them.

If we're leaving Z&D together for the rest of this season, then either try to bulk up the Weiss line so that it can take more offensive zone starts with the expectation of doing something, or just sit Weiss and try to make it solid enough to take some minutes off of everyone else's hands.

Ok I can get behind your reasoning. Who are our potential centers then? Z, Dats, Shea, Helm, Glen, Andy, Weiss. Am I missing anyone? Then if Helm is much better on the wing (I think he is), and if Z and Dats should play together (debatable), then in that case we need to choose two of Glen, Andy, Weiss. That's fair enough, I wouldn't mind giving him a shot.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm coming from on it. If Z wasn't looking a bit run down, him running his own line and taking some minutes from Datsyuk wouldn't bother me. Or having Sheahan shoulder more minutes from the third line. I think we're seeing long careers taking their toll on Z&D, though. I think limiting their minutes is going to become a necessity, but it's almost impossible to do if one line is on the ice for only nine minutes every night, and another line is Miller-Glendening-whoever.

If we're looking at a similar situation heading into next season, I'd almost rather just ditch Weiss and Andersson and let something like Mantha-Larkin-Pulkkinen cut their teeth as our "fourth" line for 10-12 minutes a night every night.
 

Satrebil

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Aug 3, 2006
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If we're looking at a similar situation heading into next season, I'd almost rather just ditch Weiss and Andersson and let something like Mantha-Larkin-Pulkkinen cut their teeth as our "fourth" line for 10-12 minutes a night every night.

I like this.
 

Claypool

Registered User
Jan 12, 2009
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If we're looking at a similar situation heading into next season, I'd almost rather just ditch Weiss and Andersson and let something like Mantha-Larkin-Pulkkinen cut their teeth as our "fourth" line for 10-12 minutes a night every night.

Mantha and Larkin would be better suited playing 18-20 minutes a night on the top line in Grand Rapids.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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If we're looking at a similar situation heading into next season, I'd almost rather just ditch Weiss and Andersson and let something like Mantha-Larkin-Pulkkinen cut their teeth as our "fourth" line for 10-12 minutes a night every night.

I've been very pro-prospect the majority of the time since joining this site... But with all due respect, I think that is a terrible idea.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Mantha and Larkin would be better suited playing 18-20 minutes a night on the top line in Grand Rapids.

If they were lesser prospects or if we wouldn't have the vet support around to shield and mentor, I'd agree. We have the guys ahead of them to do the heavy lifting as they get their feet wet, though, and they could be exposed and broken in gradually. Even if you don't want them all on one line, we could still sprinkle them throughout the lineup and have them with guys who could ease the transition a bit.

And I don't think it's unlikely the Wings would make room for either of them next season considering the talk that came out from the organization about Mantha coming into this season, and their reported openness about Larkin leaving UM after his freshman year.
 

SpookyTsuki

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Dec 3, 2014
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weiss needs to be traded... Sheahan is more fitting for a 2nd line center then weiss.


weiss hasnt good looked.. But he also hasnt had a good player with him.. Not since Pulk really.

If he had good linemates that were on the 2nd line where he should be... Hed probably be responsible 40 point guy.. 50 point guy. 15 goals or so. maybe 20

I just dont see that when Sheahan even out performed him.

If weiss was a bit cheaper. Id take him over Andy any day of the week.
 

Vladdy84

L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
Dec 1, 2011
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Buyout window is June 15-30, may spell the end of Weiss in Detroit.

Buying him out would result in caphit of 1.067 million for 15-16 and 16-17 season, 2.567 in 17-18, and 1.667 for 18-19, 19-20, and 20-21.

Khan also says if we traded him teams would most likely require us to retain salary.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/05/detroit_red_wings_have_decisio.html

What a mess.

Hate to buy him out. Ideally move him in a deal for a D-Man.

He was a productive player this year when in the lineup playing with decent players.
 

detredWINgs

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Jan 1, 2004
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Buyout window is June 15-30, may spell the end of Weiss in Detroit.

Buying him out would result in caphit of 1.067 million for 15-16 and 16-17 season, 2.567 in 17-18, and 1.667 for 18-19, 19-20, and 20-21.

Khan also says if we traded him teams would most likely require us to retain salary.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/05/detroit_red_wings_have_decisio.html

What a mess.

Given how much junk gets traded and purchased in this league, a competent GM should be able to find a taker for Weiss at $3.4M. That's no different than what you'd pay for a veteran 2/3 tweener center/winger in free agency. And it sure as hell beats paying $2.6M 3 seasons from now.
 

abbbaron

Registered User
May 6, 2015
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Only buy him out if there's a genuine need for the cap space. Of course there's been a need on the team ever since Rafalski retired, but for various reasons Holland decided to let that issue fester in favor all those great FA signings we've had in the last few years. Unfortunately I have to assume the worst with Holland, so buying out Weiss would probably only enable Holland to go out and burn cap and roster space on another Weiss/Sammy/Tootoo/Colaiacovo/etc.
But if not buying out Weiss means trading for Phaneuf, then that's just moving from the frying pan and into the fire. Who knows why Holland can't instead organize a deal for another overpriced guy who has less downside risk (Semin? Bolland? there are quite a few actually); again, I have to assume the worst.
So more cap-space to go out and find another Weiss, or Phaneuf-- it's pick your poison with Holland these days.
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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Only buy him out if there's a genuine need for the cap space. Of course there's been a need on the team ever since Rafalski retired, but for various reasons Holland decided to let that issue fester in favor all those great FA signings we've had in the last few years. Unfortunately I have to assume the worst with Holland, so buying out Weiss would probably only enable Holland to go out and burn cap and roster space on another Weiss/Sammy/Tootoo/Colaiacovo/etc.
But if not buying out Weiss means trading for Phaneuf, then that's just moving from the frying pan and into the fire. Who knows why Holland can't instead organize a deal for another overpriced guy who has less downside risk (Semin? Bolland? there are quite a few actually); again, I have to assume the worst.
So more cap-space to go out and find another Weiss, or Phaneuf-- it's pick your poison with Holland these days.

Holland could start a new trend where teams just swap bad contracts every summer hoping maybe a change of scenery might spark one of them. If it doesn't work, they just keep getting a new address every summer until the deal is done.

You could also add guys like Andrew MacDonald, Richards, Lecavalier, Clarkson, Rene Bourque etc. to the list.

The NHL should find a way to allow bad deals like these to benefit teams that do manage the cap well.

I've always thought that for the sake of "parity", the NHL should institute a system where teams that don't spend up to the cap can benefit by "absorbing" average salary into their cap from a cap strained team, or a team looking to open up some space to make a signing or trade.

In a nut shell, a team like Ottawa that leaves open $10M in space can let a team in a cap crunch "store" a certain amount of AAV in there space. The team that is deferring the AAV to the low spending team is still on the hook for 100% of the amount. For the team taking the cap hit, they get a small monetary "fee" paid to them by the high spending team, and get to choose to receive a certain draft pick from that team in the next 2 drafts depending on the amount they "store". And the storage amount go in increments of $1M.

Like a 7th for $1M, 6th for $2M, 5th for $3M, 4th for $4M, 3rd for $5M, 2nd for $6M and a 1st for $7M, with $7M being the max that a team can store with one team. There could also be rules where teams can't "defer" more than a certain amount the next season if they "deferred" salary the season before.

Spendy teams would essentially be trading draft picks for some cap flexibility.

That way teams get an option other than buying out players or swapping bad contracts, and teams that know they won't be spending up to the cap can be rewarded with some extra draft picks at their disposal.
 

abbbaron

Registered User
May 6, 2015
477
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I think letting GMs retain up to half the salary on a contract was meant to be sufficient in greasing stupid contracts like these, but in practice GMs are loathe to retain a significant amount for more than a season because it basically amounts to a mea culpa ('how do I explain to ownership that I clearly signed a bloated contract?').

I'd love to see more liquidity with these underperformers, but I suspect it's a lot easier said than done what with all the NTCs/NMCs being included in contracts these days, not to mention other human resource-level concerns
 

Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
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Holland could start a new trend where teams just swap bad contracts every summer hoping maybe a change of scenery might spark one of them. If it doesn't work, they just keep getting a new address every summer until the deal is done.

That's basically a big part of how the NBA works, only no one has any pretense about a change of scenery having any positive impact whatsoever. All you are doing is trading for an expiring contract. It's complete garbage.
 

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