You didn’t think I wasn’t going to respond, did you?
Why would you assume that? I said at the outset that I was attempting to have a conversation, despite any misgivings I had that you really wouldn't be down for one (in contrast with just lamely exchanging rants, which I think you're more than down with.)
A. Thanks for saying I “don’t get to define feminism.” Didn’t think I was defining it, just saying it went over the top.
Webster’s does define it:
1. The theory of the political, economic, & social equality of the sexes.
2. Organized activity on behalf of women’s rights & interests.
Well, based on the dictionary’s definition of feminism (I hope you’ll allow it), my assertion is that this “Star Wars” movie was an organized activity on behalf of women’s interests that goes way overboard. To the point it would be seen as awful if the genders were reversed. That’s not equality. It doesn’t promote political, economic, & social equality of the sexes. It promotes men are dumb & impulsive & need women to lead & save them from their gender-based impulsivity.
I went into a lengthy breakdown tearing apart your reading of the film, which you didn't rebut at all. You're projecting stuff onto the film that's not there (ahem, because actually you're the one with the agenda). Anyway:
1. Organized activity on behalf of women's interests? The film exists TO MAKE MONEY; nothing more, nothing less. To the extent that diversity aids in that aim, it will be inclusive. There's a reason Rogue One featured 2 Asian characters, and it had nothing to do with social justice. It had everything to do with the box office in China. And what's more, that's fine! It's perfectly okay to have a diverse cast of characters in a movie, even if it is primarily to sell more tickets.
2. The film does not promote the idea that men are dumb and impulsive and that women are wise and heroic. (You've misread the film, because you engaged in a ton of confirmation bias when you watched it.) Finn makes a heroic decision to sacrifice himself, that Rose stops because she has deep romantic feelings for him. Poe is RIGHTLY concerned with Holdo's lack of transparency and apparent lack of a plan. In fact, Holdo's needless secrecy is pretty damn close to a (contrived) plot device, and one can argue (and many in this very thread have) that it makes her incompetent. Luke literally transcends the physical realm to save the resistance, and it's Poe that stops to think and work out how to escape. Kylo Ren uses his master's arrogance against him to save Rey, even if in the end it was to try to lure her to the dark side. Meanwhile, Holdo is arguably incompetent and Leia does almost nothing of consequence, and is in a f***ing coma for the entire 2nd act. The attack on maleness that you see in the film isn't actually there.
3. And you are trying to define feminism. You have a caricature of it in your head, that functions as a strawman. Believe it or not, feminism is NOT the idea that men are inherently evil, or dumb, or impulsive; and that women are inherently good, or wise, or thoughtful. It's not the idea that women are better than men. I know a bunch of feminists. Not one of them believes any of that. By the way, how many feminists do you personally know? How many feminists are you friends with? I'm sincerely asking.
You’re treating feminism like a sacred concept that must go unchecked. Everything needs a check. That’s why the founding fathers made 3 branches of government.
You are a very confused person.
1. Retire the founding fathers line. It doesn't make you sound smart, it just makes you sound way out of your depth.
2. Feminism as in (fighting for) equal rights? Yes, that's fairly sacred, and what issue could you possibly take with it? Do you believe that women deserve equal rights? And, if you do, do you believe that they've fully achieved equal rights?
3. Now, that doesn't mean one has to agree with all of feminist thought. I'm particularly suspicious of anything that smacks of dogma, and so I'm lots of fun at parties, if anyone would ever invite me to one. There's radical fringe stuff out there that's just nuts. There are also a few mainstream ideas that I take exception with. But feminists aren't some hive mind, they argue with each other over this stuff. I know, I've seen them do it.
B. Congratulations on your son being just as happy to play with Rey as a male warrior. Not sure how you truly know that, but, regardless, my point is the main audience for Star *Wars* is young men, & I think most young men identify with male action heroes. Isn’t part of the reason TV shows & movies & dolls promote diversity to engage more people who can better identify? Well, here Star Wars completely alienated their main audience from an identity perspective. Young boys (with exceptions like your son) are going to be drawn more to male fighters & generals than females. The drop off in sales supports my point.
Gosh, so much wrong here as well.
1. It's really sad that you don't think that boys can enjoy playing with female action figures. I mean, that's not even anything new. One of my favorite Star Wars toys growing up was the Endor-version of Leia on a speeder bike, and that was more than 30 years ago.
Anyway, how do I know? Well, he smiled when he opened the present, and then started playing with it. He also got 2 different versions of Kylo Ren (one of which came with the starter kit). His brother got that same starter kit Kylo Ren, along with Finn & Poe. For this particular series of toys, there are several dozen male figures compared with fewer than 10 female figures, including multiple Leias (and I think that there might even be more anonymous imperial / first order guards & stormtroopers than named female characters). So, no need to feel alienated; strong manly young men like yourself still have plenty of testicle-sporting warriors to choose from to try to stave off the impending calamity of declining action figure sales. I mean, just look at the number of prominent force users we've seen during the course of 9 films:
Females: Rey, Leia (whose big force power reveal after 9 films was to f***ing float through space).
Males: Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Anakin / Vader, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Palpatine, Snoke, & Kylo Ren.
So, 2 vs. 11 or 12 depending on whether or not you view Anakin and Vader as separate characters. And we've seen multiple male force users in every movie except Rogue One (where it's just Vader), but there have only been 2 films that have featured even one female character having force power.
And why should males be alienated because the hero is female, anyway? Strip away your misreading of the film, and there is no attack on maleness in the film. It it ok for boys to watch / like movies where the hero is female in your version of the world? And if not, why not? Maybe that says a lot more about you, and your hang-ups, than any supposed feminist agenda?
2. Also, I hate to break it to you, but the audience for Star Wars is not limited to young men (it's sexist to even say that, as if somehow the whims of young men take priority over those of young women, but you won't see it, so whatever). My teenage daughter and her friends are all proud geeks. They love Harry Potter, they adore Stranger Things, and they're obsessed with Star Wars. My daughter's favorite character: Kylo Ren. There were literal tears in her eyes over his choosing the dark side. Her big ask for x-mas? A build your own R2D2 kit.
What's more, I happen to work with hundreds of teenagers for a living. I think you'd be greatly surprised about their attitudes towards gender (and yes, even amongst the young men). For example, I know a bunch of 15 year old male Star Wars nerds that couldn't possibly care less that there were 2 female military leaders in TLJ.
I'm curious. What's your background, if you don't mind my asking? Age, martial status, kids, etc.? Again, asking sincerely.
C. The sports stuff. It’s logically inconsistent to defend preferring male sports to women’s sports, yet you get rankled over the concept of preferring to watch male military leaders & warriors to female.
It's logically incoherent to compare preferring watching men's pro sports to whining about (non-existent) excessive female representation in a movie. I don't watch much women's pro sports, but I don't have an issue with women's pro sports. In fact, I think it's awesome that there's a high level women's professional basketball league.
And I don't know if you're aware of this, but when you watch Star Wars, all of that military stuff is pretend. Those people are acting. Shocking, I know, but it's true. Last I checked, women can act just as well as men can. Meanwhile, despite what you might believe, feminists are not under the delusion that optimal female athletic performance is on par with optimal male athletic performance.
As for the implication that female military leaders / warriors are somehow unrealistic, you do know that there are female soldiers and generals fighting wars all across the globe, including tens of thousands of women serving in all-female combat units against ISIS, right?
Well, sports are a form of combat,
No. No, they are most definitely not. As someone who's had no less than 6 family members serve in the military, including one female cousin, I find it astounding that someone could even believe that.
yet suddenly I’m a misogynist while you justify those who prefer men’s sports. Really, you’re just a hypocrite.
You may be a misogynist, but I have hope for you yet. But I doubt that the rest of the forum is at all interested in an extended exchange of encyclopedia-length posts on feminism, so if you'd like to continue, we could move to PMs.
And retire the sports thing. It's not the hammer that you think it is. It doesn't expose anyone's hypocrisy, it merely exposes that you have trouble making a coherent argument.
Oh, & remember, the woman in black is in charge of Star Wars now if you don’t think there’s an agenda:
Redirect Notice
Dude. That's the thing that triggers you? A f***ing innocuous t-shirt?
See, you look at that t-shirt and see some nefarious feminist agenda. I look at that t-shirt and see some women celebrating the fact that after 40 years there's finally a female character with force powers.
