OT: Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS!!!!)

[RANKKA]

Not originally, we didn't. I didn't have a clue who the emperor really was for 2 decades. He was just the big bad that turned Anakin Skywalker to the dark side in some back story we only got the smallest pieces of.

oh then you didint, yea i dont know about that wasnt even born when they came

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

This is something that some people have been complaining about but that I found extremely compelling. My read on it is that Snoke was supremely arrogant, and that Ren is able to use Snoke's own arrogance to blind him to what's going on. The pupil has now surpassed the master and is now the most powerful person in that room. It's foreshadowed by the Yoda line about masters being what their pupils grow beyond.

And I agree, in the throne room, Ren realizes that Snoke's holding him back and that's the primary reason he kills him - to seize power. I'm very much looking forward to seeing what they do with Ren as undisputed supreme leaders of the First Order.

This is something I never thought about and you are right Snoke was very arrogant. I think Kylo Ren's eventual undoing will be his temper and his rage. as good of a character as he is, his over the top rage will be his downfall and it will be used against him.

 

[Rebels57]

wtf are you talking about? we know everything about him?

We knew absolutely nothing about him until the prequels.

 

[Rebels57]

The man I am loved what they did with Luke. The child inside hated it. Overall, I thought it worked really well, but am sad we didn't get to see Luke really being a badass with a lightsaber.



This is something that some people have been complaining about but that I found extremely compelling. My read on it is that Snoke was supremely arrogant, and that Ren is able to use Snoke's own arrogance to blind him to what's going on. The pupil has now surpassed the master and is now the most powerful person in that room. It's foreshadowed by the Yoda line about masters being what their pupils grow beyond.

And I agree, in the throne room, Ren realizes that Snoke's holding him back and that's the primary reason he kills him - to seize power. I'm very much looking forward to seeing what they do with Ren as undisputed supreme leaders of the First Order.

This is how I read it as well. And he saved Rey because he feels a connection to her and wanted to recruit her to help him rule.

 

[The Rage Kage]

Who was the Emperor in the old trilogy? We know just as much about him as we know about Snoke -- maybe even less. I know it drives people wild to not have theories answered definitively, but it shouldn't kill thoughts on the story because of it.

We (i wasnt born take we as star wars fans) didnt know anything about the universe at that time either, about the jedi, about the empire, or even the rebels. Every scene was something new, it was all a mystery. Its different now, we have history which disney has been building up, we know palpatine was the mastermind behind almost everything that went on in the galaxy. He managed to turn the jedi and the force into myth. He hid his force power from the jedi right under their nose. Now we get the new trilogy with another old extremely powerful force user that would have been alive/active during the same time as palpatine, he has as much resources as the empire after the empire was destroyed and we know nothing about where he came from or how he stayed hidden or how he now rules first order. And now hes dead. The situations are not the same at all. I still like that they killed him, but we need more backstory so it actually fits in with disneys established canon.

Aside from that, if the emperor was killed in his second scene, which was during the escape from hoth (pretty much the closest comparable, not the climax to the film or trilogy) people would have been upset.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

We (i wasnt born take we as star wars fans) didnt know anything about the universe at that time either, about the jedi, about the empire, or even the rebels. Every scene was something new, it was all a mystery. Its different now, we have history which disney has been building up, we know palpatine was the mastermind behind almost everything that went on in the galaxy. He managed to turn the jedi and the force into myth. He hid his force power from the jedi right under their nose. Now we get the new trilogy with another old extremely powerful force user that would have been alive/active during the same time as palpatine, he has as much resources as the empire after the empire was destroyed and we know nothing about where he came from or how he stayed hidden or how he now rules first order. And now hes dead. The situations are not the same at all. I still like that they killed him, but we need more backstory so it actually fits in with disneys established canon.

Aside from that, if the emperor was killed in his second scene, which was during the escape from hoth (pretty much the closest comparable, not the climax to the film or trilogy) people would have been upset.

But why do you need that backstory? His resources could be from quite literally anywhere -- could've rallied old Imperial sympathizers, could've been a warmonger, could be a merchant, etc. & We can easily explain how he stayed hidden all that time -- Yoda and Obi-Wan did it. If necessary, they'll add that to the expanded novels I'm sure...but for in-film material, it's useless to us as an audience.

Why do you need to know how he rules the First Order? What good would that do for the story? You know he's Supreme Leader and created the First Order from the remnants of the Old Empire. The situations are exactly the same.

The Emperor's second scene was in ROTJ when he arrived to speak with Vader, if I recall (way past Hoth). Fun fact: Snoke had more scenes before he died than Sidious did (Snoke had 4, Sidious had 3 if I recall properly).

I really don't think we need to know anymore about Snoke -- but y'all may be getting your wish because there's a big theory going around that Snoke wasn't really there physically.

 

[The Rage Kage]

But why do you need that backstory? His resources could be from quite literally anywhere -- could've rallied old Imperial sympathizers, could've been a warmonger, could be a merchant, etc. & We can easily explain how he stayed hidden all that time -- Yoda and Obi-Wan did it. If necessary, they'll add that to the expanded novels I'm sure...but for in-film material, it's useless to us as an audience.

Why do you need to know how he rules the First Order? What good would that do for the story? You know he's Supreme Leader and created the First Order from the remnants of the Old Empire. The situations are exactly the same.

The Emperor's second scene was in ROTJ when he arrived to speak with Vader, if I recall (way past Hoth). Fun fact: Snoke had more scenes before he died than Sidious did (Snoke had 4, Sidious had 3 if I recall properly).

I really don't think we need to know anymore about Snoke -- but y'all may be getting your wish because there's a big theory going around that Snoke wasn't really there physically.

I know the emperors second scene was in jedi. I was just saying thar if his second/third scene was during the escape from hoth and he was killed that would be the closest comparable.

I hope he really is dead, he had too much "weight" in his scenes to have been a projection through the force. Luke seemed almost weightless. The best backstory for snoke would have been for him to be plaguies, it would have tied the whole saga together beautifully, sadly that wont happen.

 

[TCTC]

I really don't think we need to know anymore about Snoke -- but y'all may be getting your wish because there's a big theory going around that Snoke wasn't really there physically.

That would be even worse than letting him die without a backstory.

 

[Rebels57]

I hope Snoak was just a public figure head for Darth Plaguies.

 

[The Rage Kage]

I would really love if plaguies was still alive. Palpatine is so arrogant when hes telling the story to anakin it would be too good.

 

[mja]

I would really love if plaguies was still alive. Palpatine is so arrogant when hes telling the story to anakin it would be too good.

See, this is the shit I couldn't care less about. I've blocked the prequels out of my mind and I actually had to look up who Plagueis was, as I only recalled the name.

 

[RANKKA]

well at the end who cares next movie is last, what ever happens, there will be happy ever after ending...........

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I do look forward to see how Family Guy handles their version of this haha

 

[BillDineen]

Finally watched it after travelling. My expectations were low, so I kind of liked it. My son hated it. 8 movies of the Skywalker family leading to Luke's nephew vs a newcomer? Not great IMO. Rey and Ren are decent actors though. If they were as bad as Hayden Christensen, no one would like these movies at all.

To those complaining about feminism, go complain about something relevant or make up something other bs and keep it to yourselves. To those wanting more on Snoke, don't worry Disney will make a movie every year for the next 20 years in the universe, maybe longer.

 

[Protest]

To be fair there was about as much snoke as there was the emperor.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Why would you assume that? I said at the outset that I was attempting to have a conversation, despite any misgivings I had that you really wouldn't be down for one (in contrast with just lamely exchanging rants, which I think you're more than down with.)



I went into a lengthy breakdown tearing apart your reading of the film, which you didn't rebut at all. You're projecting stuff onto the film that's not there (ahem, because actually you're the one with the agenda). Anyway:

1. Organized activity on behalf of women's interests? The film exists TO MAKE MONEY; nothing more, nothing less. To the extent that diversity aids in that aim, it will be inclusive. There's a reason Rogue One featured 2 Asian characters, and it had nothing to do with social justice. It had everything to do with the box office in China. And what's more, that's fine! It's perfectly okay to have a diverse cast of characters in a movie, even if it is primarily to sell more tickets.

2. The film does not promote the idea that men are dumb and impulsive and that women are wise and heroic. (You've misread the film, because you engaged in a ton of confirmation bias when you watched it.) Finn makes a heroic decision to sacrifice himself, that Rose stops because she has deep romantic feelings for him. Poe is RIGHTLY concerned with Holdo's lack of transparency and apparent lack of a plan. In fact, Holdo's needless secrecy is pretty damn close to a (contrived) plot device, and one can argue (and many in this very thread have) that it makes her incompetent. Luke literally transcends the physical realm to save the resistance, and it's Poe that stops to think and work out how to escape. Kylo Ren uses his master's arrogance against him to save Rey, even if in the end it was to try to lure her to the dark side. Meanwhile, Holdo is arguably incompetent and Leia does almost nothing of consequence, and is in a ****ing coma for the entire 2nd act. The attack on maleness that you see in the film isn't actually there.

3. And you are trying to define feminism. You have a caricature of it in your head, that functions as a strawman. Believe it or not, feminism is NOT the idea that men are inherently evil, or dumb, or impulsive; and that women are inherently good, or wise, or thoughtful. It's not the idea that women are better than men. I know a bunch of feminists. Not one of them believes any of that. By the way, how many feminists do you personally know? How many feminists are you friends with? I'm sincerely asking.



You are a very confused person.

1. Retire the founding fathers line. It doesn't make you sound smart, it just makes you sound way out of your depth.

2. Feminism as in (fighting for) equal rights? Yes, that's fairly sacred, and what issue could you possibly take with it? Do you believe that women deserve equal rights? And, if you do, do you believe that they've fully achieved equal rights?

3. Now, that doesn't mean one has to agree with all of feminist thought. I'm particularly suspicious of anything that smacks of dogma, and so I'm lots of fun at parties, if anyone would ever invite me to one. There's radical fringe stuff out there that's just nuts. There are also a few mainstream ideas that I take exception with. But feminists aren't some hive mind, they argue with each other over this stuff. I know, I've seen them do it.



Gosh, so much wrong here as well.

1. It's really sad that you don't think that boys can enjoy playing with female action figures. I mean, that's not even anything new. One of my favorite Star Wars toys growing up was the Endor-version of Leia on a speeder bike, and that was more than 30 years ago.

Anyway, how do I know? Well, he smiled when he opened the present, and then started playing with it. He also got 2 different versions of Kylo Ren (one of which came with the starter kit). His brother got that same starter kit Kylo Ren, along with Finn & Poe. For this particular series of toys, there are several dozen male figures compared with fewer than 10 female figures, including multiple Leias (and I think that there might even be more anonymous imperial / first order guards & stormtroopers than named female characters). So, no need to feel alienated; strong manly young men like yourself still have plenty of testicle-sporting warriors to choose from to try to stave off the impending calamity of declining action figure sales. I mean, just look at the number of prominent force users we've seen during the course of 9 films:

Females: Rey, Leia (whose big force power reveal after 9 films was to ****ing float through space).

Males: Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Anakin / Vader, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Palpatine, Snoke, & Kylo Ren.

So, 2 vs. 11 or 12 depending on whether or not you view Anakin and Vader as separate characters. And we've seen multiple male force users in every movie except Rogue One (where it's just Vader), but there have only been 2 films that have featured even one female character having force power.

And why should males be alienated because the hero is female, anyway? Strip away your misreading of the film, and there is no attack on maleness in the film. It it ok for boys to watch / like movies where the hero is female in your version of the world? And if not, why not? Maybe that says a lot more about you, and your hang-ups, than any supposed feminist agenda?

2. Also, I hate to break it to you, but the audience for Star Wars is not limited to young men (it's sexist to even say that, as if somehow the whims of young men take priority over those of young women, but you won't see it, so whatever). My teenage daughter and her friends are all proud geeks. They love Harry Potter, they adore Stranger Things, and they're obsessed with Star Wars. My daughter's favorite character: Kylo Ren. There were literal tears in her eyes over his choosing the dark side. Her big ask for x-mas? A build your own R2D2 kit.

What's more, I happen to work with hundreds of teenagers for a living. I think you'd be greatly surprised about their attitudes towards gender (and yes, even amongst the young men). For example, I know a bunch of 15 year old male Star Wars nerds that couldn't possibly care less that there were 2 female military leaders in TLJ.

I'm curious. What's your background, if you don't mind my asking? Age, martial status, kids, etc.? Again, asking sincerely.



It's logically incoherent to compare preferring watching men's pro sports to whining about (non-existent) excessive female representation in a movie. I don't watch much women's pro sports, but I don't have an issue with women's pro sports. In fact, I think it's awesome that there's a high level women's professional basketball league.

And I don't know if you're aware of this, but when you watch Star Wars, all of that military stuff is pretend. Those people are acting. Shocking, I know, but it's true. Last I checked, women can act just as well as men can. Meanwhile, despite what you might believe, feminists are not under the delusion that optimal female athletic performance is on par with optimal male athletic performance.

As for the implication that female military leaders / warriors are somehow unrealistic, you do know that there are female soldiers and generals fighting wars all across the globe, including tens of thousands of women serving in all-female combat units against ISIS, right?



No. No, they are most definitely not. As someone who's had no less than 6 family members serve in the military, including one female cousin, I find it astounding that someone could even believe that.



You may be a misogynist, but I have hope for you yet. But I doubt that the rest of the forum is at all interested in an extended exchange of encyclopedia-length posts on feminism, so if you'd like to continue, we could move to PMs.

And retire the sports thing. It's not the hammer that you think it is. It doesn't expose anyone's hypocrisy, it merely exposes that you have trouble making a coherent argument.



Dude. That's the thing that triggers you? A ****ing innocuous t-shirt?

See, you look at that t-shirt and see some nefarious feminist agenda. I look at that t-shirt and see some women celebrating the fact that after 40 years there's finally a female character with force powers.

I reply to your 10,000 word essay with a simple question: If the genders were reversed, would it be seen as equality?

 

[mja]

I reply to your 10,000 word essay with a simple question: If the genders were reversed, would it be seen as equality?

Emphatically, YES! For the third time, you've misread the film! This film is not a story of wise warrior women saving stupid impulsive men. You're fixated on that, but it's all in your head. You could literally flip the gender of every major character and frankly it would be only more feminist.

We'd have male Leia doing nothing really of consequence (aside from mentoring future resistance leader, female Poe) for the entire film and in a coma for the entire second act, and whose only notable third act scene would be female Luke coming to say goodbye to him before she saves the day. We'd have female Snoke (powerful force user and supreme military leader) getting played by female Ren (powerful force user and warrior, and arguably the most interesting character in ANY SW film), saving male Rey (who isn't even in the top 5 of interesting SW characters). We'd have female Poe, charismatic & brave, and the best pilot in the galaxy, rightly questioning the apparent lack of a plan from the male Holdo, a character (barely) who really only exists for female Poe's character arc. We'd have female Finn, nobly sacrificing herself for her friends, but being stopped by male Rose, because he loves her, who then goes on to spend the rest of the film in a coma. We'd have female Poe completing her arc and leading the rest of the resistance to safety, with an assist from the male Rey, while female Ren & female Luke have the film's culminating light saber battle.

The movie simply isn't the story you think it is. You just watched it with an agenda, because you were already convinced Kathleen Kennedy had it made with one.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I reply to your 10,000 word essay with a simple question: If the genders were reversed, would it be seen as equality?

Simple answer:

Sure. It would actually infuriate you way more if it were flipped (since you hate strong female characters outnumbering strong male characters).

 

[BillDineen]

I am sure feminists aren't pleased with the the instant abilities of Rey. She basically became a master jedi from nothing in a little over a week in time between the two movies.

The more I think about the two movies together, the more I hate the inconsistencies between the two. Knights of Ren? Rey's parents mystery? Map to find Luke when needed? Just poor construction. They should have had an outline for the 3 movies before filming the first.

 

[TCTC]

The more I think about the two movies together, the more I hate the inconsistencies between the two. Knights of Ren? Rey's parents mystery? Map to find Luke when needed? Just poor construction. They should have had an outline for the 3 movies before filming the first.

You can probably blame JJ Abrams for that. Him and his "mystery box".
If he knew how to provide some answers and not only questions, Lost would probably be a masterpiece.

 

[The Rage Kage]

You can probably blame JJ Abrams for that. Him and his "mystery box".
If he knew how to provide some answers and not only questions, Lost would probably be a masterpiece.

And he has control of the next one. We are in for a weak finish.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I am sure feminists aren't pleased with the the instant abilities of Rey. She basically became a master jedi from nothing in a little over a week in time between the two movies.

The more I think about the two movies together, the more I hate the inconsistencies between the two. Knights of Ren? Rey's parents mystery? Map to find Luke when needed? Just poor construction. They should have had an outline for the 3 movies before filming the first.

What's the inconsistency with all of these things? I don't get it.

 

[BillDineen]

What's the inconsistency with all of these things? I don't get it.

Knights of Ren were ignored in VIII. The mystery of Rey's parents was brushed off in one line with Ren saying they were nobody. VII had R2 with a map to find Luke when he was needed, he was needed in VIII and Luke said he was done and waiting to die in VIII. All inconsistent with story progression.

 

[mja]

Knights of Ren were ignored in VIII. The mystery of Rey's parents was brushed off in one line with Ren saying they were nobody. VII had R2 with a map to find Luke when he was needed, he was needed in VIII and Luke said he was done and waiting to die in VIII. All inconsistent with story progression.

The Knights of Ren were barely even featured in VII and I really don't think we've missed anything by their exclusion from VIII. They may yet figure more prominently in IX, but even then, they're basically just scenery.

I LOVED Rey's parentage reveal. It was a red herring all along, and a genuinely interesting surprise. It was a valid storytelling choice. One thing I HATE about the prequels was the forced need to make everything interconnected, i.e. Yoda & Chewie were friends from way back, Anakin built C3PO and R2D2 was his droid, and so on and so forth.

Luke was just the MacGuffin for the first film, but I can see your point that it seems a bit inconsistent that he left a map in case he was needed, but then when he was needed he didn't want to go. His attitude could surely have shifted over the intervening years and he could have become even more embittered, but I see your point. Frankly the map thing was nonsensical from the start, but I've never watched these movies for their tightly written plots (even in the original trilogy, Vader wasn't Luke's or Leia's father initially, and Leia makes out with her brother because that plot development hadn't been scripted yet.)

And that leads me again to the point that we all want different things from these films. I'm not in this for the plot, where the series has been inconsistent from the start. I'm in it for the spectacle and because of how it taps into and adds to hero mythology.

 

[FlyerFaithful17]

I just want to know who the eff Snoke is.

They can’t leave him as this mysterious being and never explain it.

Finally got around to seeing it, and this is my number 1 thought as well.