OT: Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS!!!!)

[BringBackHakstol]

Can you clarify? You keep making very vague sentences.

What things specifically are you saying the suits are doing to ruin the creative process? (since you're saying they exist). So far all I've gotten is that the series is ruined because they're hiring actors of color to be leads.

I'm not going to go into a point by point list of things, but you really don't realize this? It's well known how Kathleen Kennedy is driving this franchise right now.

For example, do you really think Porgs are written into the script out of pure plot necessity? The canto bight side plot obviously written expressly to give Rose some screen time so that it almost sort of makes sense when she "saves" Finn. That side plot scenes were so bad that it appears to have been lifted straight out of the prequels.

Look, I understand your angle on this. I agree with you to a certain extent. To me its not the diversification itself that is the problem. It's just a finger print of the larger problem.

 

[TCTC]

Feminism means equality -- is that bad?

Does it though? I mean, I'm all for equality, but having female leads just for the sake of it kind of undercuts the whole concept.

 

[Rebels57]

Does it though? I mean, I'm all for equality, but having female leads just for the sake of it kind of undercuts the whole concept.

This makes no sense.

Do you feel that way when males are cast as leads?

 

[Flyrs21]

Feminism means equality -- is that bad?

I never said it was bad nor does it bother me. But the signs of someone pushing their own agenda are there in the movie. Most of the men portrayed as "idiots" or evil.... the women strong leaders and fighters.

And don't get me started on Finn, the only African American lead is made to look like a bumbling idiot and all the jobs and positions he could of been with the First Order, what is he?......a garbage man.

And please take this post lighthearted.

 

[TCTC]

This makes no sense.

Do you feel that way when males are cast as leads?

To me it doesn't matter if a character is male or female if it makes sense in the story. It's more about the studios trying to pander to a certain crowd for obvious reasons.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Exactly. It's clear pandering. Clear feminist propaganda. And it takes away any sense of genuiness & just feels like a transparent, agenda-driven, unrealistic puff piece for "girl power."

Men are impulsive & do stupid testosterone driven things while subverting authority & constantly making mistakes of judgment risking people's lives. And Benicio del Toro's character is an underhanded two-faced snake.

The 2 highest leaders are wise brave heroic women who save men from their own stupidity. Another woman similarly saves Finn. And the "Last Jedi" -- the Jedi's savior & hope for the future -- is a young woman who is the best pilot in the galaxy as well as an incredible fighter with phenomenal powers. Do any of the females make a mistake in the movie?

Imagine if all the genders of the characters were switched. There'd be absolute outrage at how the women were portrayed. Is that "equality," or agenda-driven propaganda?

 

[The Rage Kage]

This tweet was made for you

Funny tweet but it really misses the mark other than the feminist agenda part.

 

[whitstifier]

There was one woman in the original trilogy who had lines--Carrie Fisher. If you think having a tiny bit more diversity among actors is "feminist agenda" and not just "normal," I don't know how to help you.

 

[The Rage Kage]

There was one woman in the original trilogy who had lines--Carrie Fisher. If you think having a tiny bit more diversity among actors is "feminist agenda" and not just "normal," I don't know how to help you.

Not that it makes much of a difference but there was also Mon Mothma.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I'm not going to go into a point by point list of things, but you really don't realize this? It's well known how Kathleen Kennedy is driving this franchise right now.

For example, do you really think Porgs are written into the script out of pure plot necessity? The canto bight side plot obviously written expressly to give Rose some screen time so that it almost sort of makes sense when she "saves" Finn. That side plot scenes were so bad that it appears to have been lifted straight out of the prequels.

Look, I understand your angle on this. I agree with you to a certain extent. To me its not the diversification itself that is the problem. It's just a finger print of the larger problem.

I'm not asking you to go point by point -- I'm asking you to tell me how the agenda is so obvious with maybe 1 or 2 SOLID pieces of evidence other than "It's Disney' or "there's a random Asian/Black guy now."

Porgs are written in the script for KIDS, just like Ewoks were written in. The Canto Bight subplot made tons of sense -- how do you think the Resistance/Rebellion is going to be re-built? Poor people who are tired of the elite funding the war machine in the galaxy...The whole subplot was to get DJ, sure, but more importantly to show disparity between classes and form the new wave of Resistance fighters...that's why it ended on the little boy from Canto Bight with his Rebellion ring. You missed a huge point made in this subplot by dismissing it so easily...not to give the Asian lady screen time.

I don't think you agree with me to an extent. I haven't been feeling the agreement so far.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Does it though? I mean, I'm all for equality, but having female leads just for the sake of it kind of undercuts the whole concept.

That's exactly what it means. Feminism is literally the belief that women are equal to men and should have equal rights, representation.

Why is a male lead any better or worse than a female lead?

You've got to get your head out of this "Well, this is how it's always been done" mentality and just say "Hey, there's a person. She's a her. She's a nice future Jedi probably" and move on --- doesn't have to be all bros all the time. That's not realistic.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Exactly. It's clear pandering. Clear feminist propaganda. And it takes away any sense of genuiness & just feels like a transparent, agenda-driven, unrealistic puff piece for "girl power."

Men are impulsive & do stupid testosterone driven things while subverting authority & constantly making mistakes of judgment risking people's lives. And Benicio del Toro's character is an underhanded two-faced snake.

The 2 highest leaders are wise brave heroic women who save men from their own stupidity. Another woman similarly saves Finn. And the "Last Jedi" -- the Jedi's savior & hope for the future -- is a young woman who is the best pilot in the galaxy as well as an incredible fighter with phenomenal powers. Do any of the females make a mistake in the movie?

Imagine if all the genders of the characters were switched. There'd be absolute outrage at how the women were portrayed. Is that "equality," or agenda-driven propaganda?

This post is a disaster...I can't even....

I want to talk with you civilly about this, but when one has their mind so slanted like this, it will never end with an educational outcome. From what I've learned, no one in this thread knows what Feminism even means (which is astounding).

I'm gonna leave this thread for a while and hope it gets better than people trashing a science fiction film because they made ladies and people of color lead actors.

 

[Rebels57]

If you see gender and race diversity and the first thing it makes you think is "agenda" then I really feel sorry for you.

When I see it, I think "Cool. Diversity." The planet is full of it and I imagine far away galaxies a long time ago would be too.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Please. If you switched the genders of all the main characters, there would be outrage.

This wasn't about equality. This was about an over-the-top force feeding of a pro-woman agenda.

Might as well of made a movie about WNBAers putting NBAers in their place. It just comes across as forced, phony, & patronizing.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I'm not asking you to go point by point -- I'm asking you to tell me how the agenda is so obvious with maybe 1 or 2 SOLID pieces of evidence other than "It's Disney' or "there's a random Asian/Black guy now."

Porgs are written in the script for KIDS, just like Ewoks were written in. The Canto Bight subplot made tons of sense -- how do you think the Resistance/Rebellion is going to be re-built? Poor people who are tired of the elite funding the war machine in the galaxy...The whole subplot was to get DJ, sure, but more importantly to show disparity between classes and form the new wave of Resistance fighters...that's why it ended on the little boy from Canto Bight with his Rebellion ring. You missed a huge point made in this subplot by dismissing it so easily...not to give the Asian lady screen time.

I don't think you agree with me to an extent. I haven't been feeling the agreement so far.

I wouldn't use the inclusion of ewoks, which were universally reviled, and put into the movie to sell toys, as a counter to my porg complaint. It's the same exact thing. It's a prime example of what I'm talking about. It's big studio BS.

I didn't "miss" that point of the sub plot, it was still dumb and unneeded. Do we really need to see more reasons that people would want to rebel against a cartoonishly evil regime? They blew up planets in the previous movie...

Anyway, I'll bow out of this aspect of the argument too, because like I said, it's only a small part of what made me dislike this film. I don't share the same views about "SJW's" and feminism as others in this thread, but I absolutely felt the studio influence all over this thing and it bothers the hell out of me. If you don't see it, it's cool, but I feel like you aren't giving it proper consideration.

 

[Rebels57]

Please. If you switched the genders of all the main characters, there would be outrage.

This wasn't about equality. This was about an over-the-top force feeding of a pro-woman agenda.

Might as well of made a movie about WNBAers putting NBAers in their place. It just comes across as forced, phony, & patronizing.

Its a real shame you perceive the world this way.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Its a real shame you perceive the world this way.

1. If you switched all the main characters' genders, you don't think there'd be outrage about how the men were portrayed as superior to the women?

2. Do you really believe men & women in general have equal strengths and weaknesses? For God's sake, the heralded women's US national soccer team routinely gets destroyed by 14u boys club teams restricted to players from local areas. Same with hockey. Same as I'd get destroyed in preschool teaching and child rearing by most women. Why can't we admit men & women have different strengths & weaknesses? No, we have to go over the top with a movie where the top army commanders are all women, they keep saving the men from stupidity, the best pilot & fighter is a woman, it's ridiculous. It's WNBA or women's hockey schooling the NBA or NHL. I'm fine with having a strong female lead who is the exception that proves it can happen. This was over-the-top ridiculous propaganda with all of the leaders being women; them saving men from their aggressiveness over and over; and the women always making the right choices while the men keep making mistakes & need to be saved. If North Korea attacks, you think we're being saved by female fighter pilots, generals, & ground troops?

 

[Jtown]

hated it for many reasons.

for starters, this new trilogy now completely negates the original trilogy. everything they did at the end of ROTJ means nothing now looking back. in fact, the galaxy is worse off. Empire/FO is stronger, Rebels are almost completely wiped out. WTF was the point? at the end of ROTJ there was a feeling of hope, they had turned the tide, and now that whole battle all meant nothing.

Snoke. who was he? where did he come from? how did he get to Ben without Luke knowing? guess we'll never know. who are the other KOR anyway and where are they? just another plot line forgotten.

Leia. yeah she should have died in space. that Mary Poppins scene was ridiculous. people don't survive deep space.

Luke. we waited 34 years to see Luke Skywalker back in action, and what do we get? him moping emo-style on a rock for 2.5 hours not giving a **** about anyone. no wonder Mark Hamill is pissed at the way they handled his character. he should be. this wasn't Luke at all. felt like a completely different person.

Rey. what is with her superpowers anyway? she literally has little to no training and seems so powerful. Luke had to train for 3 films with 2 of the best Jedi (Obi Wan and Yoda) before he was a Jedi capable of defeating Vader, but not Rey, she's mega powerful with basically no training at all and kicked Kylo Ren's ass who had been trained by Luke and presumably Snoke. i can't stand her character development. there's no hero arc there at all.

that Casino subplot was Phantom Menace level cringe. simply awful.

Phasma. what was the point of her? so useless. and what was with that scene where they were about to execute Finn and Rose and the ship gets hit, then all of a sudden all the troops around them (who had armor on) are dead but they survived without a single scratch? WTF.


humor felt very off. it didn't feel like a Star Wars movie but more like Michael Bay Transformers style comedy for little kids.

there are many other problems but those were the ones off the top of my head. movie was a complete mess. the days of wanting another Empire Strikes Back are over. we'll never get that again. Disney will never make a movie that dark and for adults. all we'll get is more Jar Jar style comedy aimed at the kiddies to sell toys. which is ironic considering toy sales are apparently down for this movie. maybe even the kiddies are getting turned off by the poor storytelling.

This is such a good summary of why this film failed to evoke any sort of interest from me. Not only that but this film was not entertaining or interesting. The only interesting character they have developed is Rey. Poe, and Fen are annoying, though Fen is much better in this one.

However here is the thing, these films are going to cash in bigtime regardless if they are good or not. Nothing they put on screen will ever prevent the masses from not showing up.

 

[Tripod]

I can honestly say that the women, different people of color/race, etc... never occurred to me at all until I started reading HF opinion on the movie.

I can say there were issues I had with it, like Leia flying like Mary Poppins, but all this "political, race, sex, etc.." stuff is none of it.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

1. If you switched all the main characters' genders, you don't think there'd be outrage about how the men were portrayed as superior to the women?

2. Do you really believe men & women in general have equal strengths and weaknesses? For God's sake, the heralded women's US national soccer team routinely gets destroyed by 14u boys club teams restricted to players from local areas. Same with hockey. Same as I'd get destroyed in preschool teaching and child rearing by most women. Why can't we admit men & women have different strengths & weaknesses? No, we have to go over the top with a movie where the top army commanders are all women, they keep saving the men from stupidity, the best pilot & fighter is a woman, it's ridiculous. It's WNBA or women's hockey schooling the NBA or NHL. I'm fine with having a strong female lead who is the exception that proves it can happen. This was over-the-top ridiculous propaganda with all of the leaders being women; them saving men from their aggressiveness over and over; and the women always making the right choices while the men keep making mistakes & need to be saved. If North Korea attacks, you think we're being saved by female fighter pilots, generals, & ground troops?

Literally...EVERYTHING you just wrote is the belief of a massive sexist.

Even you thinking you can give "permission" for 1 strong female lead (God forbid there be more than that) further proves your belief in innate gender superiority in every way (which is total crap).

But no, this comment will get buried and you won't be shamed appropriately because this board's population is full of bros who I'm sure don't care because it's their privilege not to care.

I can't believe you have any female friends (if you even do). I wonder if they know you think less of them than the common man.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I can honestly say that the women, different people of color/race, etc... never occurred to me at all until I started reading HF opinion on the movie.

I can say there were issues I had with it, like Leia flying like Mary Poppins, but all this "political, race, sex, etc.." stuff is none of it.

Because you don't have an agenda like some of the losers who went to see this film.

They're just people...black men and asian women are in powers of position, and women can be leaders.

Why is that so hard to believe? It happens in actual real life!

 

[Rebels57]

Literally...EVERYTHING you just wrote is the belief of a massive sexist.

Even you thinking you can give "permission" for 1 strong female lead (God forbid there be more than that) further proves your belief in innate gender superiority in every way (which is total crap).

But no, this comment will get buried and you won't be shamed appropriately because this board's population is full of bros who I'm sure don't care because it's their privilege not to care.

I can't believe you have any female friends (if you even do). I wonder if they know you think less of them than the common man.

His lack of self-awareness if startling to say the least

It's not even worth addressing anymore because it is beneath any level of decency.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Literally...EVERYTHING you just wrote is the belief of a massive sexist.

Even you thinking you can give "permission" for 1 strong female lead (God forbid there be more than that) further proves your belief in innate gender superiority in every way (which is total crap).

But no, this comment will get buried and you won't be shamed appropriately because this board's population is full of bros who I'm sure don't care because it's their privilege not to care.

I can't believe you have any female friends (if you even do). I wonder if they know you think less of them than the common man.

Weird that you're saying what I wrote is sexist, yet you refuse to address my main question: If the genders of the main characters were switched, you don't think there'd be outrage at the movie being sexist?

The movie was sexist. Just not in the way you've been brainwashed.

And don't put "permission" in quotes when that's not what I said.

Do you enjoy watching the WNBA & women's hockey as much as the NBA & Flyers?

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Weird that you're saying what I wrote is sexist, yet you refuse to address my main question: If the genders of the main characters were switched, you don't think there'd be outrage at the movie being sexist?

The movie was sexist. Just not in the way you've been brainwashed.

And don't put "permission" in quotes when that's not what I said.

Do you enjoy watching the WNBA & women's hockey as much as the NBA & Flyers?

You've got me so annoyed at your sexism, I'll actually respond:

-I'll answer your question: NO, you jackwagon. The genders being reversed is EVERY ACTION MOVIE EVER MADE PRE-2000. Ever hear the term "Damsel in distress"? That's because it is a main function of Hollywood film-making -- women who can't do anything for themselves so a man has to step in to rescue them. I can't believe you're even trying to pretend there's some massive inequality in the film industry (towards men).

-You didn't give permission? Let's roll the tape!

I'm fine with having a strong female lead who is the exception that proves it can happen. This was over-the-top ridiculous propaganda with all of the leaders being women

So, as YOU said, you think it's permissible to have only 1 strong female lead, but anything more is over the top sexism (because CLEARLY that can't happen in real life).

-Well this is a loaded question: I don't watch the WNBA, women's hockey, or the NBA.

I also don't like men's college football, but love the NFL. What's your point?

You're not going to prove your sexist points with me -- I'm unbias in my inherent beliefs of men and women. Sure, the average guy can outbench the average woman (because that's science), but saying the average man is naturally a better leader or is more intelligent or more skilled at piloting is just BALLS.

 

[Bigkarl]

That's exactly what it means. Feminism is literally the belief that women are equal to men and should have equal rights

I disagree that that's what modern day feminism means. Sure, feminist movements were about gaining the right to vote, gaining female reproductive rights, and women owning their own sexuality. They have all those things now.

Feminism today is all about shaming the people they view as the ultimate evil in society: Cis Het White Males. Too many feminists think all straight white men should be punished because of they're perceived "privilege", and if they even refuse to admit that they were born with inherent privilege, they are automatically labeled sexist, racist, islamaphobe, etc.

That said, you've really gotta be watching the movie with a slant to think that feminism and SJW sympathy is what ruined the movie. Leia was in exactly the position she should be. Going back to a new hope, she was always a strong willed, resourceful woman. Of course she would continue to fight the new order and lead the resistance. My main gripe with the movie is the handling of Luke's character, who should not have been some terrified, broken hermit. I wouldn't have expected Leia to also be a broken recluse. I would expect her to fight and lead, which is what she did.

I honestly don't give a crap about more diversity in the film. The characters being black and Asian had nothing to do with why I thought Canto Bight was a wasted plot line. The reason I don't like it is because the pay off wasn't worth the investment, and that was time that I think would have been much better spent building Luke and Rey's relationship.