Online Series: Star Wars: The Acolyte on Disney+

[Do Make Say Think]

That's part of the problem. We all saw SW when we were kids. Nothing they do with the franchise today can impress on us as strongly.

Star Wars also had break through special FX. That's not possible today. On top of that, the natural ending of the saga already happened in 1983.

I'm not sure what you can really do with this IP. It's been fully exploited already. Maybe it wasn't worth 4B. Even Andor is a spinoff of a spinoff.

There is plenty of potential in Star Wars: it is space fantasy and there isn't much of that in today's media.

The problem isn't Star Wars, it is Disney. Disney is way too big for its own good, they don't let the creatives be creatives, the execs meddle way too much.

Star Wars could be something like Game of Thrones in space, it is entirely doable. Disney won't let it be awesome though, even this ended up linked to the Original Trilogy and that story is 1000% done but they refuse to move on from it.

And no, it has nothing to do with woke. The Acolyte was shit because the script and dialogue were complete trash.

Think about it: a serious political fantasy series like Song of Ice and Fire in space! Think how awesome that could be!

 

[Sad People]

I think there are some slam dunks Disney could make to rebound and I hope they do.

Like, just make a Darth Vader story hunting down the Jedi.

Don't make it about another character who is the main one (probably a female girl boss, cuz that's what Disney does now) while they're evading Vader.

No. I mean make it about the POV of Darth f***ing Vader and him dealing with the politics of the new Empire, managing staff that despise him but fear him, and his solo adventures on planets where he needs to shake down people for information on Jedi.

Don't make it like Obi-Wan where we have to dedicate time to Reva instead of just focusing on Obi-Wan and Vader.

Ive been wanting a made for adult show about Palps for years now. Maybe starting from his childhood on Naboo and his early days as being a politician to meeting Plagueis and his training and rise in the dark side of the force. It doesnt even have to be made for adults but Disney seems so hesitant to make a story about the bad guys for whatever reason.

 

[Osprey]

...Disney seems so hesitant to make a story about the bad guys for whatever reason.

They arguably just did. The Sith and witches were meant to be sympathetic, the Jedi were corrupt and killed off in the end and the Sith who killed them lived happily ever. That sounds like a show about the bad guys... but you probably meant a show that doesn't try to justify the bad guys.

 

[Stylizer1]

The only thing that can save the Star Wars Universe is a show about the Sith with nothing but toxic masculinity and slutty Ewoks.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

They arguably just did. The Sith and witches were meant to be sympathetic, the Jedi were corrupt and killed off in the end and the Sith who killed them lived happily ever. That sounds like a show about the bad guys... but you probably meant a show that doesn't try to justify the bad guys.

Wait you interpreted that as a story about bad guys?

The Acolyte was all about subverting audience's expectations of established groups.

 

[Bowski]

Wait you interpreted that as a story about bad guys?

The Acolyte was all about subverting audience's expectations of established groups.

*Loud established asparagus farts devoid of all charisma."

 

[Osprey]

Wait you interpreted that as a story about bad guys?

The Acolyte was all about subverting audience's expectations of established groups.

Yes, and the way that they were subverted is that the traditional good guys were the ones in the wrong and the traditional bad guys were the ones that we were seemingly supposed to agree and sympathize with.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Yes, and the way that they were subverted is that the traditional good guys were the ones in the wrong and the traditional bad guys were the ones that we were seemingly supposed to agree and sympathize with.

Aka the good guys, in this story

 

[Osprey]

Aka the good guys, in this story

In this story, yes, but the bad guys in it are the Jedi and I'm pretty sure that a story about the Jedi wasn't what he was asking for. You both seemed to be asking for a story about the Sith, and I was just pointing out that you can arguably call this show that, since the Sith are portrayed as the good guys. I know that that's not what you meant. I was just being a little technical and suggesting that Disney arguably did make a show about the traditional bad guys, even if it wasn't the story that you or I wanted.

 

[Hivemind]

The hubris of the Jedi Order has been a frequent topic in Star Wars media, and is one of the key plot elements of the prequel trilogy. This isn't a Disney invention. The OT posed the question of "what happened to the Jedi, and why is the order gone?" and Lucas provided an answer that was rooted in the Jedi Order being brought down by its own dogma, hypocrisy, and arrogance.

 

[Osprey]

The hubris of the Jedi Order has been a frequent topic in Star Wars media, and is one of the key plot elements of the prequel trilogy. This isn't a Disney invention. The OT posed the question of "what happened to the Jedi, and why is the order gone?" and Lucas provided an answer that was rooted in the Jedi Order being brought down by its own dogma, hypocrisy, and arrogance.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Jedi were brought down by "dogma, hypocrisy and arrogance." Lucas didn't and wouldn't write that, IMO. I think that what he was getting at in the prequels is that complacency, perhaps born of hubris (as you wrote), was their undoing. I see it as similar to how the Allies thought that they had eliminated Germany as a threat and ignored how reparations and occupation inadvertently fostered resentment and led to the rise of the Nazis. Like the Allies, the Jedi in the prequels were still obviously the good guys, but were facing something that they inadvertently helped cause and failed to notice growing under their noses until it was too late. Both are warnings that complacency (not corruption) facilitates the rise of evil, IMO. Leslye Headland seems to have either misunderstood that or taken the opportunity to go too far with it. Either way, I think that it's quite different than what Lucas intended and many fans are willing to accept.

 

[johnjm22]

The more that I think about it, the more that I wonder if the way to save the IP might be to just re-cast Luke, Han and Leia and adapt Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy into the sequel trilogy that we all wanted in the 90s. That and other post-RotJ exploits of our three original heroes is one major area that hasn't been exploited yet, since Lucas wasted the opportunity by waiting too long and then making the prequels. After that, more movies and shows (perhaps drawing from other EU content) could follow them as they age, get stronger in the Force and raise their kids, until the franchise is eventually handed over to the kids. The Disney sequel trilogy wouldn't even necessarily have to be de-canonized, at least not until the new actors are old, themselves. I doubt that Disney would go in such a direction, since they seem determined to move on from Lucas' Star Wars and re-shape it to their liking, and I have no confidence in their execution even if they did, but it's a possible way forward.

I think the re-casting of Luke, Han and Leia is all but inevitable. I could see them re-doing the original trilogy.

I'm sure it will go over really well with the fanbase and they'll be no controversy at all.

 

[Hivemind]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Jedi were brought down by "dogma, hypocrisy and arrogance." Lucas didn't and wouldn't write that, IMO. I think that what he was getting at in the prequels is that complacency, perhaps born of hubris (as you wrote), was their undoing. I see it as similar to how the Allies thought that they had eliminated Germany as a threat and ignored how reparations and occupation inadvertently fostered resentment and led to the rise of the Nazis. Like the Allies, the Jedi in the prequels were still obviously the good guys, but were facing something that they inadvertently helped cause and failed to notice growing under their noses until it was too late. Both are warnings that complacency (not corruption) facilitates the rise of evil, IMO. Leslye Headland seems to have either misunderstood that or taken the opportunity to go too far with it. Either way, I think that it's quite different than what Lucas intended and many fans are willing to accept.

It's not a matter of your opinion or your acceptance, Lucas absolutely wrote the downfall of the Jedi Order as result of its own dogma, hypocrisy, and arrogance.

Even Master Yoda says so (the second screenshot is merged in from a Reddit post, but it's there to highlight just how right Yoda is)

The Jedi's hubris leads to their adherence to dogma when it suits them, and their own hypocrisy to avoid its tangles when it doesn't suit them. Mace Windu states the Jedi are "peacekeepers, not soldiers" then ends up being a General leading troops into the battle in the very same movie. They are too arrogant to see that they are being manipulated (or even the possibility that someone like Dooku could resort to violence), despite knowing of the presence of the Sith and later seeing Dooku do exactly what they claimed he could not do as a former Jedi. They often conflict with and hide things from the Senate, and manipulate information to suit their will (which is a lot closer to corruption than it is to complacency). This kinda stuff isn't just subtext, it's quite often just straight forward text (as shown with the quotes above and below).



And while not written by Lucas, you can find plenty of more examples along these lines in the Clone Wars series.



Now I'm no Lucas-worshipper, and I think Episode 2 is the worst movie in the franchise. But that's much more due to execution than it is to this concept. I'd love for someone who can actually write dialogue to do this storyline better justice (and the Clone Wars did start that, to an extent, albeit for a young adult audience). I'd love for an Andor-like exploration of the prequel era, and that's what I was hoping for with the Acolyte (albeit set in the High Republic-era). It's not what we got, at least not before the final episode. But The Acolyte wasn't doing anything with regards to the temperment of the Jedi that Lucas, or Filoni for that matter, hadn't already done before.

 

[Osprey]

I think the re-casting of Luke, Han and Leia is all but inevitable. I could see them re-doing the original trilogy.

I'm sure it will go over really well with the fanbase and they'll be no controversy at all.

Yes, remaking the original trilogy would lead to rioting, but I think that they could get away with re-casting the characters in a post-RotJ era, especially if they were to adapt Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, which fans have wanted an adaptation for for 30 years. They've already re-cast Han and faced minimal backlash over it, so I think that the fanbase wouldn't object to more re-casting, so long as the OT is left alone.

It's not a matter of your opinion or your acceptance, Lucas absolutely wrote the downfall of the Jedi Order as result of its own dogma, hypocrisy, and arrogance.

Even Master Yoda says so (the second screenshot is merged in from a Reddit post, but it's there to highlight just how right Yoda is)

The Jedi's hubris leads to their adherence to dogma when it suits them, and their own hypocrisy to avoid its tangles when it doesn't suit them. Mace Windu states the Jedi are "peacekeepers, not soldiers" then ends up being a General leading troops into the battle in the very same movie. They are too arrogant to see that they are being manipulated (or even the possibility that someone like Dooku could resort to violence), despite knowing of the presence of the Sith and later seeing Dooku do exactly what they claimed he could not do as a former Jedi. They often conflict with and hide things from the Senate, and manipulate information to suit their will (which is a lot closer to corruption than it is to complacency). This kinda stuff isn't just subtext, it's quite often just straight forward text (as shown with the quotes above and below).



And while not written by Lucas, you can find plenty of more examples along these lines in the Clone Wars series.



Now I'm no Lucas-worshipper, and I think Episode 2 is the worst movie in the franchise. But that's much more due to execution than it is to this concept. I'd love for someone who can actually write dialogue to do this storyline better justice (and the Clone Wars did start that, to an extent, albeit for a young adult audience). I'd love for an Andor-like exploration of the prequel era, and that's what I was hoping for with the Acolyte (albeit set in the High Republic-era). It's not what we got, at least not before the final episode. But The Acolyte wasn't doing anything with regards to the temperment of the Jedi that Lucas, or Filoni for that matter, hadn't already done before.

Point taken, but I still feel that how Headland portrayed the Jedi in The Acolyte is different than how Lucas portrayed them in the prequels. She portrayed them as a corrupt institution, essentially the bad guys. Lucas portrayed only certain individuals as corrupted, while the Jedi were still clearly the good guys. When Yoda said that arrogance is "a flaw more and more common among Jedi," he was referring to Anakin and Dooku, who both turned to the dark side, not to the Jedi as a whole or an institution. Headland portrayed the Jedi not as succumbing to the dark side, but as simply being bad on their own, which Lucas would never write, IMO. He wrote that Star Wars is "good against evil," and, sometimes, good does turn to evil and vice versa, but the distinction was clear. Headland muddied up that distinction by suggesting that the good aren't so good and the evil aren't so bad. That's not Lucas' Star Wars and is why many fans who are OK with the portrayal of the Jedi in the prequels are not OK with their portrayal in The Acolyte.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Finally caught up to the last two episodes. Absolutely a flawed series, but my problems are largely with execution not concept. I liked a lot of the ideas and themes it played with though I'm not sure how much of those fully came to fruition. I thought the action was often very good to great and Qimir (thanks to Manny Jacinto's performance) is one of the most interesting and engaging new characters in a long time. That he was largely sidelined in the finale and his backstory is punted to a season 2 is one of my disappointments.

Amandla Stenberg never clicked in for me as Osha or Mae. I think that's a little on her but also a little on the writing. Generally liked the rest of the performances. Thought it looked pretty good too.

This ultimately winds up about middle-of-the-road in terms of Star Wars TV for me. I'll take flawed and interesting over derivative and bad (Obi-Wan), so poorly conceived and tedious it turns into another show (Book of Boba Fett) or safe and forgettable (Ahsoka). Not as good as Andor or the first two seasons of The Mandalorian, but in a second tier for me alongside season 3 of The Mandalorian (sorry Mandalorian lore is basically dull rehashed Jedi bullshit) and just above Ahsoka.

I'd watch a second season.

 

[johnjm22]

Yes, remaking the original trilogy would lead to rioting, but I think that they could get away with re-casting the characters in a post-RotJ era, especially if they were to adapt Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, which fans have wanted an adaptation for for 30 years. They've already re-cast Han and faced minimal backlash over it, so I think that the fanbase wouldn't object to more re-casting, so long as the OT is left alone.

I don't disagree. Star Wars is no longer a sacred cow. If they wanted to re-cast those characters and adapt the Thrawn trilogy I think there would be some fan enthusiasm.

But I would expect Disney to pick the lowest hanging fruit instead (re-doing the OT).

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't understand why franchises don't take a more literary approach to begin with. It's not just Zahn's trilogy; there's tons of talented science fiction fantasy novelists out there who'd love to write a SW saga that could be adapted.

I realize translating from the page to the screen isn't necessarily simple, but with today's production technology it should be more feasible than ever before.

 

[Osprey]

 

[Bounces R Way]

I don't disagree. Star Wars is no longer a sacred cow. If they wanted to re-cast those characters and adapt the Thrawn trilogy I think there would be some fan enthusiasm.

But I would expect Disney to pick the lowest hanging fruit instead (re-doing the OT).

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't understand why franchises don't take a more literary approach to begin with. It's not just Zahn's trilogy; there's tons of talented science fiction fantasy novelists out there who'd love to write a SW saga that could be adapted.

I realize translating from the page to the screen isn't necessarily simple, but with today's production technology it should be more feasible than ever before.

I would f*** with a Rogue Squadron TV series heavy. Top Gun in X-wings? Hell yeah. Could actually do a mission of the week episodic style instead of these short seasons that are really just a long movie cut into 8 parts.

 

[Hivemind]

I'm pretty meh on adapting the EU. For all the (often valid ) hand wringing over writing quality in Disney Star Wars, there's a lot of even worse writing in "Legends" content. 90% of the EU novels, comics, etc. are junk. I think most of us would agree that Star Wars is better without a giant, sentient, golden-scale covered blob who eats force sensitive children. And I'm in no rush to see Chewbacca get killed by a falling moon or Palpatine's Three-Eyed Fake Son on the big screen.

Zahn's Thrawn trilogy is among the best EU content, but even it gets pretty goofy at times. Most everything revolving around C'Baoth is pretty hokey, and especially Luke's clone, ever so cleverly named "Luuke." Do you really want a plot elements that revolve heavily around lizards that cancel out the force? It also simply has too many characters and simultaneous plots for movie adaptations. We already saw the sequel trilogy struggle to figure out how to utilize all its characters, but the Thrawn trilogy packs basically the whole ensemble cast of the Original Trilogy plus Thrawn, Mara Jade, Talon Karde, Garm Bel Iblis, Winter, Captain Pelleaon, Rukh, and Joruus C'Boath all figuring into major plot elements. You can merge some of them or turn them into bit parts, but the weight of adapting 1300+ dense pages of content into a trilogy would be tough. Trying to portray Mara Jade's changes of allegiance and inner conflict would be rather difficult in any succinct runtime (and on screen at all). It would be more fitting of a slow burn TV show (althought that would perhaps dwell on some of the goofier bits a bit too long).

I have no problem with new Star Wars content adapting the better characters, locations, and plot elements from Legends, and then fitting them into a theoretically more streamlined continuity (although the bloat of multiple authors and media forms is already becoming overwhelming and forcing retcons). I'd love more Star Wars slow burn TV content, but I don't see the need to simply rehash existing material for it.

I would f*** with a Rogue Squadron TV series heavy. Top Gun in X-wings? Hell yeah. Could actually do a mission of the week episodic style instead of these short seasons that are really just a long movie cut into 8 parts.

Patty Jenkins Says She’s Back on ‘Star Wars’ Movie ‘Rogue Squadron’

The 'Wonder Woman' director says she's writing a 'Rogue Squadron' movie after all.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[Rob]

The Old Republic has so much potential. I have zero faith in Disney handling it though

 

[Osprey]

I'm pretty meh on adapting the EU. For all the (often valid ) hand wringing over writing quality in Disney Star Wars, there's a lot of even worse writing in "Legends" content. 90% of the EU novels, comics, etc. are junk. I think most of us would agree that Star Wars is better without a giant, sentient, golden-scale covered blob who eats force sensitive children. And I'm in no rush to see Chewbacca get killed by a falling moon or Palpatine's Three-Eyed Fake Son on the big screen.

Zahn's Thrawn trilogy is among the best EU content, but even it gets pretty goofy at times. Most everything revolving around C'Baoth is pretty hokey, and especially Luke's clone, ever so cleverly named "Luuke." Do you really want a plot elements that revolve heavily around lizards that cancel out the force? It also simply has too many characters and simultaneous plots for movie adaptations. We already saw the sequel trilogy struggle to figure out how to utilize all its characters, but the Thrawn trilogy packs basically the whole ensemble cast of the Original Trilogy plus Thrawn, Mara Jade, Talon Karde, Garm Bel Iblis, Winter, Captain Pelleaon, Rukh, and Joruus C'Boath all figuring into major plot elements. You can merge some of them or turn them into bit parts, but the weight of adapting 1300+ dense pages of content into a trilogy would be tough. Trying to portray Mara Jade's changes of allegiance and inner conflict would be rather difficult in any succinct runtime (and on screen at all). It would be more fitting of a slow burn TV show (althought that would perhaps dwell on some of the goofier bits a bit too long).

I have no problem with new Star Wars content adapting the better characters, locations, and plot elements from Legends, and then fitting them into a theoretically more streamlined continuity (although the bloat of multiple authors and media forms is already becoming overwhelming and forcing retcons). I'd love more Star Wars slow burn TV content, but I don't see the need to simply rehash existing material for it.

I think that it goes without saying that suggestions about adapting the EU mean adapting its best elements, not its worst.

I finished reading Zahn's Thrawn trilogy earlier this month and agree with you on the goofy elements. The ysalamiri, C'Baoth and Luke's clone were not my favorite parts. If I were to adapt the trilogy, I'd try to either downplay those, make them less goofy or even just replace them with other devices. I don't think that there are too many characters or simultaneous plots to adapt. It didn't feel much different to me than the OT, which also had dozens of characters besides Luke, Han and Leia and often had those three split up. I also feel that three movies is more than enough time to portray Mara Jade's change of allegiance, especially since it was enough to show Anakin's (in two separate trilogies). In general, I'd say that Zahn largely followed the OT blueprint, which is why I think that the trilogy is beloved and wouldn't be too hard to adapt for a talented screenwriter.

 

[MadDevil]

KOTOR, Thrawn Trilogy, and the X-Wing books would be awesome on the big or small screen, but I have zero faith the current creatives at Disney could pull it off. Plus they seem deathly afraid to do straight up adaptations. They'd rather take bits and pieces of the EU and incorporate it into their own stuff, which would be fine if their own stuff was consistently good, but outside of Andor it just hasn't been. There have definitely been some fun and interesting moments and ideas in these shows, but overall the quality just hasn't been consistent because of writing/directing decisions.

I don't know if it's a case of too many chefs in the kitchen, trying to appeal to too many or too few demographics, bad leadership or some combination of the above, but they need to figure something out over there. And don't even get me started on what an absolute clusterf*** the film side has been. It's been almost 6 years since a Star Wars movie was in the theater and the closest rumored one is what, the Mandalorian movie slated for 2026?

It's just frustrating and disappointing to see movies like Dune and shows like HOTD but we can't get a f***ing Star Wars project at that level?

 

[johnjm22]

I'm pretty meh on adapting the EU. For all the (often valid ) hand wringing over writing quality in Disney Star Wars, there's a lot of even worse writing in "Legends" content. 90% of the EU novels, comics, etc. are junk. I think most of us would agree that Star Wars is better without a giant, sentient, golden-scale covered blob who eats force sensitive children. And I'm in no rush to see Chewbacca get killed by a falling moon or Palpatine's Three-Eyed Fake Son on the big screen.

Zahn's Thrawn trilogy is among the best EU content, but even it gets pretty goofy at times. Most everything revolving around C'Baoth is pretty hokey, and especially Luke's clone, ever so cleverly named "Luuke." Do you really want a plot elements that revolve heavily around lizards that cancel out the force? It also simply has too many characters and simultaneous plots for movie adaptations. We already saw the sequel trilogy struggle to figure out how to utilize all its characters, but the Thrawn trilogy packs basically the whole ensemble cast of the Original Trilogy plus Thrawn, Mara Jade, Talon Karde, Garm Bel Iblis, Winter, Captain Pelleaon, Rukh, and Joruus C'Boath all figuring into major plot elements. You can merge some of them or turn them into bit parts, but the weight of adapting 1300+ dense pages of content into a trilogy would be tough. Trying to portray Mara Jade's changes of allegiance and inner conflict would be rather difficult in any succinct runtime (and on screen at all). It would be more fitting of a slow burn TV show (althought that would perhaps dwell on some of the goofier bits a bit too long).

I have no problem with new Star Wars content adapting the better characters, locations, and plot elements from Legends, and then fitting them into a theoretically more streamlined continuity (although the bloat of multiple authors and media forms is already becoming overwhelming and forcing retcons). I'd love more Star Wars slow burn TV content, but I don't see the need to simply rehash existing material for it.

Patty Jenkins Says She’s Back on ‘Star Wars’ Movie ‘Rogue Squadron’

The 'Wonder Woman' director says she's writing a 'Rogue Squadron' movie after all.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

I agree a lot of the EU isn't great quality. Is gets very pulpy. Rise of Skywalker level writing. But some of it is also quite good.

My thought was that Disney—with its vast resources—could commission some of the finest fantasy & sci-fi novelists so they'd have some great material to adapt.

I know the High Republic stuff had some respectable writers, but I've heard mixed things about it. (Maybe it's worth adapting still?) From the outside it looks very corporate and watered down.

If you have a great novel as your foundation, you have a roadmap instead of being completely reactionary.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

I would f*** with a Rogue Squadron TV series heavy. Top Gun in X-wings? Hell yeah. Could actually do a mission of the week episodic style instead of these short seasons that are really just a long movie cut into 8 parts.

I've always thought taking existing story ideas and structures and adapting it to Star Wars is a great idea. Hell, the origin is a riff on The Hidden Fortress. There have been nods to Aliens (Clone Wars), Seven Samurai and Wages of Fear (Mandalorian). These work pretty well.

Rogue Squadron is just sitting there. Top Gun or whatever it's a really good idea that could be fun.

 

[Osprey]

I've always thought taking existing story ideas and structures and adapting it to Star Wars is a great idea. Hell, the origin is a riff on The Hidden Fortress. There have been nods to Aliens (Clone Wars), Seven Samurai and Wages of Fear (Mandalorian). These work pretty well.

Rogue Squadron is just sitting there. Top Gun or whatever it's a really good idea that could be fun.

I think that a Star Wars movie inspired by Top Gun: Maverick could really work. Imagine if, instead of F-16s flying through a heavily defended canyon and bombing a tiny target, it's X- Wings and it takes place on a man-made planet. That could be a lot of fun.