Movies: Star Wars: Episode VIII THE LAST JEDI (NO SPOILERS - Use the other thread for spoilers)

[Tawnos]

That doesn't really work for the film because it's never explained what that actually means. And he was clearly trained enough that he and his goon squad were able to wipe out the new Jedi Order, something that was also never explained.

Because it’s an episode in a story, not an entire story. We don’t find out who the other “hope” that Yoda mentions is in ESB until RotJ either.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Because it’s an episode in a story, not an entire story.

No, it's a story. Beginning, middle, end, protagonist starts at point A, goes through events, ends at point B, blah blah blah.

It's fine to not include character information in a story if that character information is not immediately pertinent to the events of the story (AKA why no writer ever attempts to maintain a realistic privy schedule for his characters). Do you think Kylo Ren's incomplete training is not pertinent to the TFA? 'Cause it's certainly brought up a lot.

 

[Tawnos]

No, it's a story. Beginning, middle, end, protagonist starts at point A, goes through events, ends at point B, blah blah blah.

It's fine to not include character information in a story if that character information is not immediately pertinent to the events of the story (AKA why no writer ever attempts to maintain a realistic privy schedule for his characters). Do you think Kylo Ren's incomplete training is not pertinent to the TFA? 'Cause it's certainly brought up a lot.

I do not think the details of why and how his training is incomplete was pertinent to TFA. The fact of it is enough to inform that particular story enough. The fact of it is enough to inform us on the reason of some of the events in that particular story. The why and how are part of another story. One it looks like we are about to be told.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

We don't even know yet how large the old order was, nor do we know how Kylo Ren was able to defeat them and how Luke survived. We can't act like Kylo is an indomitable force that couldn't have been bested by Rey unless we know the context behind his insurrection. Not to mention it doesn't really matter when Kylo was severely injured (took a goddamn bowcaster to the torso), didn't try to kill Rey initially, and let his guard down in the process to let Rey compose herself and use the force.

Perhaps people like Kylo and Luke and Rey are gifted with the force, while most are only capable and can't compete? The force is meant to be a pretty damn capable power in itself. Luke had what, a couple weeks of training before being able to take on all comers and even defeat Vader?

Just give it a minute. Not everything is explained completely.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I do not think the details of why and how his training is incomplete was pertinent to TFA. .

Even though his lack of training is used as an excuse for why an untrained plebian defeated him?

 

[Tawnos]

Even though his lack of training is used as an excuse for why an untrained plebian defeated him?

Yes. What insight would the why and how of his incomplete training give you into what happened beyond knowing that it did?

You should learn the difference between a reason and an excuse. His lack of training is a reason it happened. But it’s also something for him to learn from... by completing his training. It doesn’t excuse him. The opposite in fact. It makes it apparent he’s not good enough.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Yes. What insight would the why and how of his incomplete training give you into what happened beyond knowing that it did?

.

Because "not completing his training" is incredibly vague and can refer to anything between giving up after the first week and going rogue on the way to his final test. Between being shy of a master and not knowing which end of the laser sword goes where. It's vague to the point of meaninglessness without clarification.

The sequence in question (Rey beats Ren) is divisive because it wasn't clear on this information. Giving us detail on what incomplete training means (like, he sucks at laser sword combat but is great at Force spells) helps with the most common criticism of the film.

But it’s also something for him to learn from... by completing his training. It doesn’t excuse him. The opposite in fact. It makes it apparent he’s not good enough.

It's only apparant he's not good enough because he loses. Which is reductive and why there is division over that sequence of events.

 

[Tawnos]

Because "not completing his training" is incredibly vague and can refer to anything between giving up after the first week and going rogue on the way to his final test. Between being shy of a master and not knowing which end of the laser sword goes where. It's vague to the point of meaninglessness without clarification.

The sequence in question (Rey beats Ren) is divisive because it wasn't clear on this information. Giving us detail on what incomplete training means (like, he sucks at laser sword combat but is great at Force spells) helps with the most common criticism of the film.

Oh bull. We know he at least spent a bunch of time training with Luke. The rest can be easily (very easily) inferred by the fact that he does have a lot of power.

It's only apparant he's not good enough because he loses. Which is reductive and why their is division over that sequence of events.

No one has ever failed and been forced to reevaluate where they are in whatever endeavor they’re attempting. That just doesn’t happen!

There is division because some people failed to understand what they were watching, took a stance, and when people who did understand what they were watching explained it, decided to be obstinate about it (consciously or not).

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Oh bull. We know he at least spent a bunch of time training with Luke. The rest can be easily (very easily) inferred by the fact that he does have a lot of power..

Which is why he lost to a randy who thought the Force a fairy tale last week?

No one has ever failed and been forced to reevaluate where they are in whatever endeavor they’re attempting. That just doesn’t happen! .

A strawman. I never said that lol.

OThere is division because some people failed to understand what they were watching,.

Exactly! That's why clarification is needed. I'm glad I convinced you.

took a stance, and when people who did understand what they were watching explained it, decided to be obstinate about it (consciously or not).

Tell me about it.

 

[Tawnos]

Which is why he lost to a randy who thought the Force a fairy tale last week?




A strawman. I never said that lol.

No you didn’t. I was making fun of the implication of what you did say. Which would be what would be required if the plot point was overexplained and therefore not “reductive.” By the way, reductive is a bad criticism. Simplicity is all that’s required here. There’s a tendency that being reductive is bad, when sometimes it’s what is most appropriate for the story.

He lost because he was wounded and overconfident. But you already know this.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

How did the chosen one Darth Vader lose to a kid with two weeks of Jedi training?

Come on, let's not act like the force can't be a great equalizer depending on how you use it and how sound of mind the user is.

 

[Tawnos]

How did the chosen one Darth Vader lose to a kid with two weeks of Jedi training?

Come on, let's not act like the force can't be a great equalizer depending on how you use it and how sound of mind the user is.

I don’t disagree with your overall point, but he didn’t? Vader won that duel.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don’t disagree with your overall point, but he didn’t? Vader won that duel.

The second one? How long did Luke train with Yoda before he died?

 

[Tawnos]

The second one? How long did Luke train with Yoda before he died?

You misunderstand that training can only occur with a trainer. After Luke successfully rescues Han, Yoda himself says that Luke only needs to confront Vader to complete his training. It was a year or so between leaving Dagobah and coming back. The implication is that Luke continued training on his own.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You misunderstand that training can only occur with a trainer. After Luke successfully rescues Han, Yoda himself says that Luke only needs to confront Vader to complete his training. It was a year or so between leaving Dagobah and coming back. The implication is that Luke continued training on his own.

I mean that kind of makes my point for me, that you don't need formal training to improve in the ways of the force. Rey grew a lot from her first encounter with the force, then when you couple that with Kylo's own problems (being mentally unstable, not fully "trained", severely injured, and not trying to kill her), it isn't surprising to see Rey beat him.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

No you didn’t. I was making fun of the implication of what you did say. Which would be what would be required if the plot point was overexplained and therefore not “reductive.” By the way, reductive is a bad criticism. Simplicity is all that’s required here. There’s a tendency that being reductive is bad, when sometimes it’s what is most appropriate for the story.

"Why did he lose?" "Because he wasn't good enough"

"How do we know he wasn't good enough? Because he lost"

This is my fault, what I meant was a "circular" argument, for some reason I thought "reductive (argument)" was the same as "circular (argument)".

You have not explained why the story elements we're discussing of TFA were "appropriate" when a chunk of the audience missed the point.

And I still don't understand what you're trying to prove with the above/the sarcastic comment earlier.

He lost because he was wounded and overconfident. But you already know this.

I do already know this, I'm not disputing the "why", I'm saying the film could have done a better job of presenting this information. I'm saying it's failure to present the information as clearly as possible is why this has been debated to death over and over again across the interwebs.

I've seen you argue with people who are utterly convinced- utterly convinced- that Rey had no business winning that fight. You're well aware they exist, that they're vocal and that there are a lot of them. You even admitted that there were people who missed the point.

So I don't understand how you can conclude that the manner this information was presented is sufficient when a bunch of people missed the point the information was trying to convey. That's all I'm saying, if you clarify "incomplete training" rather than waving it in the audience's faca and say, "Want to find out what this means? Watch the sequel!", it would be more clear why Ren lost the fight.

Because the reason Ren's "incomplete training" is even mentioned at all (besides handwaving his character backstory to the next film PLZ WATCH THE SEQUEL) is to give a reason/excuse as to why he lost to Rey. Why did he lose to Rey? Because his training was "incomplete". In fact, the post I originally responded to was justifying Rey beating Ren with his "incomplete training"- and then I pointed out this doesn't really work because they don't explain what it means.

Because it can mean literally anything.

Luke had what, a couple weeks of training before being able to take on all comers and even defeat Vader?

Vader was conflicted about wanting to fight Luke. "Kylo Ren was mentally anguished-" sure, whatever, this would have been better if Rey weren't a randy to him (OR IS SHE?!?!).

Just give it a minute. Not everything is explained completely.

That's kind of my point. If you don't explain something completely, people will miss the point and then debate about it forever and ever and ever and....

 

[Tawnos]

I mean that kind of makes my point for me, that you don't need formal training to improve in the ways of the force. Rey grew a lot from her first encounter with the force, then when you couple that with Kylo's own problems (being mentally unstable, not fully "trained", severely injured, and not trying to kill her), it isn't surprising to see Rey beat him.

Yeah. Well that’s fair and why I said I didn’t disagree with your overall point. I was just saying that Luke trained for a year before confronting Vader. That’s a little different than two weeks of training.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

That's kind of my point. If you don't explain something completely, people will miss the point and then debate about it forever and ever and ever and....

Define "completely". The "text" of the medium doesn't have to explicitly state everything for it to be apparent.

 

[Tawnos]

"Why did he lose?" "Because he wasn't good enough"

"How do we know he wasn't good enough? Because he lost"

This is my fault, what I meant was a "circular" argument, for some reason I thought "reductive (argument)" was the same as "circular (argument)".

You have not explained why the story elements we're discussing of TFA were "appropriate" when a chunk of the audience missed the point.

And I still don't understand what you're trying to prove with the above/the sarcastic comment earlier.



I do already know this, I'm not disputing the "why", I'm saying the film could have done a better job of presenting this information. I'm saying it's failure to present the information as clearly as possible is why this has been debated to death over and over again across the interwebs.

I've seen you argue with people who are utterly convinced- utterly convinced- that Rey had no business winning that fight. You're well aware they exist, that they're vocal and that there are a lot of them. You even admitted that there were people who missed the point.

So I don't understand how you can conclude that the manner this information was presented is sufficient when a bunch of people missed the point the information was trying to convey. That's all I'm saying, if you clarify "incomplete training" rather than waving it in the audience's faca and say, "Want to find out what this means? Watch the sequel!", it would be more clear why Ren lost the fight.

Because the reason Ren's "incomplete training" is even mentioned at all (besides handwaving his character backstory to the next film PLZ WATCH THE SEQUEL) is to give a reason/excuse as to why he lost to Rey. Why did he lose to Rey? Because his training was "incomplete". In fact, the post I originally responded to was justifying Rey beating Ren with his "incomplete training"- and then I pointed out this doesn't really work because they don't explain what it means.

Because it can mean literally anything.

Well you’re making an assumption that failure of some people to understand a point indicates a flaw in the storytelling, which I disagree with. If I don’t understand something or missed something, I endeavor to improve my ability to. I don’t criticize the method of its presentation. And if I STILL don’t understand, I just admit it’s beyond me. Although, I do believe this one is pretty simple.

And I don’t disagree that it CAN mean anything, but I still am not sure why it matters for that particular story. It doesn’t inform anything. We will get the rest of the story in this next movie.

My point in my sarcasm is that the answer to “what his incomplete training means” is really nothing complex. It means he’s more likely to fail.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Define "completely". The "text" of the medium doesn't have to explicitly state everything for it to be apparent.

You're the one that said it, I was just quoting you.

FWIW, we're talking about Kylo Ren's incomplete training, and the film doesn't deem to explain that at all.

Well your making an assumption that failure of some people to understand a point indicates a flaw in the storytelling, which I disagree with. If I don’t understand something or missed something, I endeavor to improve my ability to. I don’t criticize the method of its presentation.

One or two or a handful of people is fine.

We're talking about a bunch of people who keep bringing up this argument, who even after multiple debates about it are still convinced the film failed.

If a large chunk of the audience are confused about a plot point to the point that there is constant discussion about it, that is on the story. 100%, and I don't see how you can dispute that.

But assumptions aside, you have still not explained why the information was sufficient to a task that it did not accomplish.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You're the one that said it, I was just quoting you.

FWIW, we're talking about Kylo Ren's incomplete training, and the film doesn't deem to explain that at all.

Right, then you made an assertion on the fact something has to be explained completely. My definition is with complete details and understanding so there is no ambiguity. To ask for that is not acceptable.

There could be many "reasons" behind it. The point is he was not mentally ready to be a completely unstoppable force like his father. The fact he aspires to be the type of force Vader is and fails is meant to be an important contrast, which makes his character compelling.

You seem to be focused on the "training" aspect of it and missing the general picture of Kylo Ren as a mentally compromised character, something that severely impacts his ability to harness the force in many cases. When he feels he has control over the situation, he succeeds. When he feels adversity, he doesn't expect it, which he has not learned to handle. That was shown multiple times.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Right, then you made an assertion on the fact something has to be explained completely. My definition is with complete details and understanding so there is no ambiguity. To ask for that is not acceptable.
.

You mean this?

It's fine to not include character information in a story if that character information is not immediately pertinent to the events of the story (AKA why no writer ever attempts to maintain a realistic privy schedule for his characters). Do you think Kylo Ren's incomplete training is not pertinent to the TFA? 'Cause it's certainly brought up a lot.

I never said completely, and I certainly don't mean your definition. What I want is enough information that the audience can understand the story "enough", which is to say, include information up to the point that audience understanding is sufficient for the needs of your story. And it's not bad to go beyond that, going a bit too far and giving useless information is far worse than not giving enough information.

I don't think TFA went far enough in giving the audience information about Kylo Ren's weaknesses, and I think, if it had done so, that several of the popular criticisms (namely the final fight) about the film would be mollified.

I think Tawnos disagrees/ there is divisiveness over the information given in the film because the film did provide information. This isn't a discussion about what the film did not include, which is easy to point out, but a discussion about what the film could have conveyed better, which deals with info already present.

 

[Tawnos]

You're the one that said it, I was just quoting you.

FWIW, we're talking about Kylo Ren's incomplete training, and the film doesn't deem to explain that at all.



One or two or a handful of people is fine.

We're talking about a bunch of people who keep bringing up this argument, who even after multiple debates about it are still convinced the film failed.

If a large chunk of the audience are confused about a plot point to the point that there is constant discussion about it, that is on the story. 100%, and I don't see how you can dispute that.

But assumptions aside, you have still not explained why the information was sufficient to a task that it did not accomplish.

I don’t think as many people are confused about this as you are portraying. Some of them just happen to be loud about it.

Which circles back to: it DID accomplish it.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I don’t think as many people are confused about this as you are portraying. Some of them just happen to be loud about it.

Which circles back to: it DID accomplish it.

That's still the remit of the film lol, and you have still not actually supported that beyond the fact that it was good enough for you. And you know, somehow I don't believe you....

But let's try this: how is the film harmed if they explained, at some point, what "incomplete training" meant? I have a reason: it clarifies the ending by identifying something some specific deficiency of Kylo Ren's which allows Rey to win.

EDIT:

Since I guess how this is going to go....

"incomplete training" Vague, not explained, and to say Rey had no training at all is an understatement.
Wounded: The best one, though it seems to slow Ren down only barely (which is why it wasn't until that one article that this became widely known)
Mental Anguish: Yeah, uh....this is also pretty vague. Not that I don't believe it, what I'm asking for is a specific reason.
He didn't use his Force powers because he wanted to prove to himself that he could defeat Rey without them (since last time the fight was over in 5 seconds): that was my interpretation, which is why I never criticized the end fight. Also that's when I started to come down.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You mean this?



I never said completely, and I certainly don't mean your definition. What I want is enough information that the audience can understand the story "enough", which is to say, include information up to the point that audience understanding is sufficient for the needs of your story. And it's not bad to go beyond that, going a bit too far and giving useless information is far worse than not giving enough information.

I don't think TFA went far enough in giving the audience information about Kylo Ren's weaknesses, and I think, if it had done so, that several of the popular criticisms (namely the final fight) about the film would be mollified.

I think Tawnos disagrees/ there is divisiveness over the information given in the film because the film did provide information. This isn't a discussion about what the film did not include, which is easy to point out, but a discussion about what the film could have conveyed better, which deals with info already present.

Why was what they shown not enough?

Kylo Ren was demonstrated to be a mentally compromised character, trying desperately to show the same traits Darth Vader showed, but failing when facing adversity. He was able to get a handle on Rey and take her to the brink initially (all the while being injured from a Bowcaster), but failed to finish the job because he thought he was strong enough to be able to turn her, letting his guard down and putting himself at a severe disadvantage the entire fight because it gave Rey the chance to recoup and really believe in herself and the force.

I don't see how you can see what unfolded and think it wasn't made clear enough. I really don't.