Online Series: Star Trek: Discovery - III - Spock's Beard

[Osprey]

You want to know something that I'm sure will shock your preconceptions to the core? I like this season so far better than the previous 2. It's focused more on the ensemble of the Discovery crew. It's less wrapped up in Burnham and her savior-complex mary-sueness and constant need to have everyone validate how awesome she is.

I can agree with this. I still don't like this season, but it's not as offensive to me as the last two. I think that that's because, as you said, it's a little bit more about the whole crew and it's 900 years in the future, so there's little fan service or screwing with canon. It can almost be taken as generic sci-fi. One review somewhere said that it feels more like The Expanse than Star Trek, which I somewhat agree with because there's so little left to tie it to the Trek we know that it feels like a new universe.

Speaking of which, that's yet another reason that I keep watching: it's sci-fi and there's so little sci-fi these days. Even mediocre sci-fi is better than no sci-fi.

I was ready to quit the show after episode 1 of the season and so far I don't regret sticking it out as far as I've watched (episode 5 I think? The one where Burnham gets chewed out for going off half-cocked on her own mission in defiance of the Admiral and Saru's orders. Finally).

That was Episode 6, the one that I joked that you made me watch. I had a feeling that you'd like the way that it ended.

 

[Cloned]

What a ridiculously condescending and arrogantly assumptive post. The idea that you've just up and decided that the dislike here isn't "real" and Reddit is inherently a superior fandom collective because people choose to like the show is ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is the presumption that all those evil Discovery haters are keeping people out of here. Because aside from yourself, who was at any point a significant discusser of the show and has departed because of the tone of this thread? Dating back to season 1 when discussion was far more active my memory is mostly of the same people that have remained the most active up until now. Me, Osprey, Blender, LeafalCrusader. johnjm22 used to post here but his posts tended to be critical so he likely wasn't driven away by the tone of the thread as much as it's possibly he just stopped watching. RobBrown4PM also used to post but he too was critical. The only posters I can think of that were more positive about the show were Cloned and Jussi, and neither of them were as frequent contributors to the thread even at the beginning. But ooooh no, all the evil, evil grinches who hate Star Trek scared them off because we demanded that anyone who posted in the thread make a blood sacrifice and chant "I hate Discovery and everything about it" to be able to post. right?

But less flippantly: Who are you to tell me whether my subjective opinion of a show is valid or not? Should I not then do the same and say your starry-eyed support of it is just mindless fawning fanboyism that franchises rely on? Shallow, bleating yes-fans who lap up everything that gets stamped with a favored name as if it's not just an acceptable piece of the legacy, but an actively beneficial one?

Of course I wouldn't do that because that's dumb. People can like what they do and dislike what they don't. The fact that you're trying to wrap up your opinion of the group on here in a neat little bow of "look at the haters just barking about the show to be negative because they can" is... insane. You say you come here just to bask in the constancy of the dislike but between that comment itself and the general tone of several others, it seems more like you come here to lord your fandom over the rest of us because liking the show automatically makes you a "better" fan in your eyes.

You want to know something that I'm sure will shock your preconceptions to the core? I like this season so far better than the previous 2. It's focused more on the ensemble of the Discovery crew. It's less wrapped up in Burnham and her savior-complex mary-sueness and constant need to have everyone validate how awesome she is. I still haven't loved some of the lazy writing choices and elements of some characters still bug me (mostly Tilly) but I'm coming around on at least several of the others (Detmer and the conn officer's (I'm not even going to risk trying to spell her name) partners-in-crime friendship is fun. Stammets is far less of an irredeemable dick than he was at the start. Adira looks potentially interesting in spite of my misgivings of how they've gone about the pseudo-Trill aspect of the character. Saru is recovering from what I felt was a damaging shift in his characterization when he "evolved" out of his fearful prey stage. Oded Fehr's Admiral guy is about as interesting as most bureaucratic admiralty characters tend to get. I even think I might not mind Book even if David Ajala is kind of playing the same sort of roguish ne'er-do-well that he has in previous roles like on Supergirl). I was ready to quit the show after episode 1 of the season and so far I don't regret sticking it out as far as I've watched (episode 5 I think? The one where Burnham gets chewed out for going off half-cocked on her own mission in defiance of the Admiral and Saru's orders. Finally). The show hasn't gotten up to the level where I'd put it on par with the other Treks except maybe TOS season 3 since that was mostly utter crap, but it is at least improving. But certainly this only shows that I'm being a mindless sheep who's only here to rag on the show so I can hang out with the cool kids, right?

You're more then welcome to disagree with my take, or Osprey's, or Blender's or anyone else's. But to dress it up the way you have in a seeming bid for superiority makes any attempt to pretend you ever wanted actual discussion or understanding quite disingenuous, insulting, and disrespectful. And therein lies a difference. Because while I might have rarely if ever agreed with your take on the show, at no point did I ever make an effort to denigrate you for holding a different opinion as you seemingly have to the rest of us here.

I usually post about the show in trekbbs now.

btw, you watch Supergirl?! You like? (Hopefully I found another SG fan on HF)

 

[The Nemesis]

I usually post about the show in trekbbs now.

btw, you watch Supergirl?! You like? (Hopefully I found another SG fan on HF)

I've liked it progressively less as it's gone on. I'm intrigued by the Superman/Lois spinoff but I'm worried because I've felt like the writing has become increasingly hammy and soapy in recent years at the expense of some of the fantasy/comic-booky feel.

 

[NyQuil]

I quit watching ST: Discovery because it sucked.

Despite a few cheesy moments, I liked Picard.

Carry on!

 

[Cloned]

I've liked it progressively less as it's gone on. I'm intrigued by the Superman/Lois spinoff but I'm worried because I've felt like the writing has become increasingly hammy and soapy in recent years at the expense of some of the fantasy/comic-booky feel.

Yeah, Season 5 was terrible. The first season was actually pretty good, Season 4 was really good as well.

It's ending after this year however.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Spoiler

Hmm...

 

[Jussi]

Yeah, Season 5 was terrible. The first season was actually pretty good, Season 4 was really good as well.

It's ending after this year however.

Jon Cryer killed it as Lex though. Deus Lex Machina, Melissa's directorial debut, was almost chilling. Everything Lex is supposed to be like.

 

[Guardian17]

Spoiler

View attachment 378444

Hmm...

Interesting.

 

[The Nemesis]

Watching the next episode from where I left off now (Unification III. Ugh, needless fanservice). I'm not bothering with spoilers because this episode is like 3 weeks old.

Ok, what the actual f***. Saru makes Tilly his first officer? Tilly? The f***ing ensign who was basically fresh out of the academy when the show started? That's profoundly stupid. There have to be dozens of more qualified and capable officers on the ship who could do the job better than goddamn Tilly, who even freaking admits she's in no way trained or prepared for such a role. But nerp, the writers have decided that Tilly is speshul and we want the audience to cheer and weep with joy that the bundle of giddy, immature neuroses should get a reward she in no way deserves. The fact that she is seemingly the only one that recognizes that this is an absolute nonsense decision is even worse.

Also the fact that we're leveraging Burnham's connection to the Vulcans is silly given that a big chunk of the first season was dedicated to Burnham's difficulty with the fact that the Vulcans and the Vulcan Science Academy had no care or reverence for her because she was just a human and if nothing else the Vulcans tend to be pretty smug/racist when it comes down to it. They wouldn't treat her as Spock's "sister", they would treat her as Sarek's adopted ward. Present due to circumstance but independent and separate from the actual, biological lineage of the family.

EDIT: And then the writers go there. On both counts. On one hand everyone gushes over Tilly getting the gig. EVEN THOUGH SHE DOESN'T f***ING DESERVE IT.

And on the other hand Burnham's mom says that the Vulcan president essentially says that Michael is potentially responsible for Spock becoming the character we know and love. Barf. If insisting that your special new character with a sudden backstory connection to prominent canonical characters is also strongly responsible for the elements of canon that fans love isn't a surefire sign of blatant mary-sueness, I don't know what is.

EDIT 2: Sorry, this just really bugs me. In TNG when Deanna got put in command for that one episode it was a) because she was the ranking officer on the bridge at the time even if she wasn't a command-path officer because rank matters. and b) everyone on the bridge was uneasy about her being in command because they recognized that someone being thrust into a command role with no training in that regard and no experience handling those situations was a terrible idea. If that episode treated the incident like Discovery has, everyone would've instead stopped to gush about how special Deanna is and how they can't wait to help her succeed because it doesn't matter if she's not qualified, prepared, or suited for the role, they just want to make everyone get all misty-eyed and fawning over cute characters being thrust into the limelight.

 

[Blender]

Watching the next episode from where I left off now (Unification III. Ugh, needless fanservice). I'm not bothering with spoilers because this episode is like 3 weeks old.

Ok, what the actual f***. Saru makes Tilly his first officer? Tilly? The f***ing ensign who was basically fresh out of the academy when the show started? That's profoundly stupid. There have to be dozens of more qualified and capable officers on the ship who could do the job better than goddamn Tilly, who even freaking admits she's in no way trained or prepared for such a role. But nerp, the writers have decided that Tilly is speshul and we want the audience to cheer and weep with joy that the bundle of giddy, immature neuroses should get a reward she in no way deserves. The fact that she is seemingly the only one that recognizes that this is an absolute nonsense decision is even worse.

Also the fact that we're leveraging Burnham's connection to the Vulcans is silly given that a big chunk of the first season was dedicated to Burnham's difficulty with the fact that the Vulcans and the Vulcan Science Academy had no care or reverence for her because she was just a human and if nothing else the Vulcans tend to be pretty smug/racist when it comes down to it. They wouldn't treat her as Spock's "sister", they would treat her as Sarek's adopted ward. Present due to circumstance but independent and separate from the actual, biological lineage of the family.

EDIT: And then the writers go there. On both counts. On one hand everyone gushes over Tilly getting the gig. EVEN THOUGH SHE DOESN'T f***ING DESERVE IT.

And on the other hand Burnham's mom says that the Vulcan president essentially says that Michael is potentially responsible for Spock becoming the character we know and love. Barf. If insisting that your special new character with a sudden backstory connection to prominent canonical characters is also strongly responsible for the elements of canon that fans love isn't a surefire sign of blatant mary-sueness, I don't know what is.

Wait...Tilly was made first officer?

Ensign Tilly being the first officer would be like if Nog was promoted to first officer of DS9 in season 7 when Colonel Kira went to help the Cardassians, difference is Nog was actually shown to be competent.

EDIT 2: Sorry, this just really bugs me. In TNG when Deanna got put in command for that one episode it was a) because she was the ranking officer on the bridge at the time even if she wasn't a command-path officer because rank matters. and b) everyone on the bridge was uneasy about her being in command because they recognized that someone being thrust into a command role with no training in that regard and no experience handling those situations was a terrible idea. If that episode treated the incident like Discovery has, everyone would've instead stopped to gush about how special Deanna is and how they can't wait to help her succeed because it doesn't matter if she's not qualified, prepared, or suited for the role, they just want to make everyone get all misty-eyed and fawning over cute characters being thrust into the limelight.

I assume you are talking about "Disaster" from season 5, as Troi actually did become a command officer in season 7. A major part of the tension in that episode is that Ensign Ro doesn't think Troi should be in command, and Troi spends the entire episode leaning on Chief O'Brien's experience because despite not being an officer he knows what he's doing.

 

[The Nemesis]

Wait...Tilly was made first officer?

Ensign Tilly being the first officer would be like if Nog was promoted to first officer of DS9 in season 7 when Colonel Kira went to help the Cardassians, difference is Nog was actually shown to be competent.


I assume you are talking about "Disaster" from season 5, as Troi actually did become a command officer in season 7. A major part of the tension in that episode is that Ensign Ro doesn't think Troi should be in command, and Troi spends the entire episode leaning on Chief O'Brien's experience because despite not being an officer he knows what he's doing.

Yeah, it's "acting" first officer, but still...

And you're right. I couldn't recall the name. And I do remember that Deanna did take the bridge officer's exam. the whole point of that episode too was her knowing that she wasn't ready for the role and that she had to challenge and confront the aspect of herself that was holding her back (that her focus on people on a personal and emotional level prevented her from making the difficult choices like giving an order that would certainly result in the death of a crew member). And Riker rightfully has to be hard on her in order for her to confront that issue and grow from it.

But we get none of that here. What's that Tilly? You're not ready and you know you're not? It's fine. It's not like we're shoving an unprepared unqualified ensign into a role on which the safety and security of the ship and its crew depends. You don't need training or the right temperment. You just need smiles and pixie dust and everyone saying "go Tilly, you're great"


Also I don't like how much this show is reinterpreting alien designs. The Andorians were needlessly complicated the same way the Klingons were, and now the Orions look kind of gonkish with their pronounced cheekbones and jawlines with the same sort of squidgy, sweaty looking silicone prosthetics. I know that "the sexy race" is problematic from a 21st century viewpoint (and not without reason) but they could've avoided that problem if they wanted to by simply not using the damn Orions in the first place.

And actually as I write this comment in the middle of "The Sanctuary" it almost looks like they were inconsistent in the application of the makeup. When the lead Orion lady first showed up she looked like she had a broad jaw the same way the previous ones we'd seen have. But now that she's in the scene where she's talking to Book's brother she still has a large, artificial looking nose but the rest of her face seems less altered. It's almost like they started using this makeup and figure out half way "geez, this looks kind of crap on certain actors" and bailed.

 

[Blender]

Yeah, it's "acting" first officer, but still...

And you're right. I couldn't recall the name. And I do remember that Deanna did take the bridge officer's exam. the whole point of that episode too was her knowing that she wasn't ready for the role and that she had to challenge and confront the aspect of herself that was holding her back (that her focus on people on a personal and emotional level prevented her from making the difficult choices like giving an order that would certainly result in the death of a crew member). And Riker rightfully has to be hard on her in order for her to confront that issue and grow from it.

But we get none of that here. What's that Tilly? You're not ready and you know you're not? It's fine. It's not like we're shoving an unprepared unqualified ensign into a role on which the safety and security of the ship and its crew depends. You don't need training or the right temperment. You just need smiles and pixie dust and everyone saying "go Tilly, you're great"

So that is from "Thine Own Self" where Troi is promoted to Commander and she had assumed a role in the command structure somewhere in season 6 or 7 I think, and the episode references her experience in "Disaster" where she was thrust into a command position and felt overwhelmed by it but by the end decided it was something she wanted to strive for.

I guess the worst part about Tilly is that the first officer is always shown to the officer in charge of personnel as well, and how is Tilly remotely qualified for that?

 

[The Nemesis]

So that is from "Thine Own Self" where Troi is promoted to Commander and she had assumed a role in the command structure somewhere in season 6 or 7 I think, and the episode references her experience in "Disaster" where she was thrust into a command position and felt overwhelmed by it but by the end decided it was something she wanted to strive for.

Yeah, I know. I just didn't feel like going into detail

I guess the worst part about Tilly is that the first officer is always shown to the officer in charge of personnel as well, and how is Tilly remotely qualified for that?

She's cute and quirky and everyone's supposed to love her quirky cuteness. That apparently qualifies her.

 

[Blender]

She's cute and quirky and everyone's supposed to love her quirky cuteness. That apparently qualifies her.

I know people don't like when this is said, but it's really anti-Star Trek. The world of Star Trek is always presented as a brutal egalitarian meritocracy. Everyone has equality of opportunity, but positions are awarded on merit and if you can't cut it you won't ever get them. Having your main character be a Luke Skywalker chosen one and having other characters always being handed things they didn't earn really undermines one of the core concepts of the franchise. I had the same problem with Star Trek 2009 where a bunch of the main cast fluked into roles they did nothing to earn just because "it was meant to be".

 

[Osprey]

Watching the next episode from where I left off now (Unification III. Ugh, needless fanservice). I'm not bothering with spoilers because this episode is like 3 weeks old.

I just watched "Unification III," as well. As much as I enjoyed seeing Burnham put in her place and demoted at the end of the previous episode, I just knew that she would receive a "Get Out of Jail Free" card in the very next episode. Almost as predictably, just as soon as she was given major responsibility again, she betrayed Saru's trust again by invoking that Vulcan procedure without consulting him first. That procedure also forced the Vulcan leader into a corner, so Burnham seems to be as irresponsible as an ambassador as she is as an officer. Also, I agree that the Vulcans would view her as Human, not as a real Vulcan or the sister of Spock.

On top of that, Burnham was particularly irritating this episode. Every look of hers is one of determination, sternness, shock, surprise, vulnerability or some other deliberate, dramatic expression. Martin-Green just can't help over act every time that the camera is on her. Compare it to Doug Jones, who is a much more natural actor and doesn't emote just because the camera is on him. Also, Burnham said, "And isn't true that the only reason that we're all sitting here today is because the Federation gave me and crew of the U.S.S. Discovery the resources and the mandate to solve the biggest, most troublesome problems in the galaxy." There's that Mary Sue-ness that you talk a lot about. She really does see herself as the savior of the galaxy and it came right from her mouth.

I agree completely about Tilly. In a way, it's been telegraphed since Season 1, though. She's meant to be "us" and we're supposed to relate to her and cheer for her as she moves up the ranks. It was only a matter of time before she became one of the most important characters on the ship (heck, she already was, even though she was an ensign, which made no sense). The only surprise is that she got promoted this far this soon. That scene at the end, in which everyone told her to accept the promotion, was so lame and cheesy.

BTW, Burnham's boyfriend (I don't even know his name) seems like he has little purpose in the season except to be her boyfriend. Yet again, his only scenes in the episode were in her quarters so that they could embrace and she could open up to him. It looks like the writers wrote him into the show just to give Burnham a love interest and, now, don't know what to do with him. It seems likely to me that he's just going to be killed off later in the season so that Burnham can have a very dramatic sob scene and blame herself for a while afterward.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

Spoiler

God, how she got the lead role in this series is baffling. Did they do auditions, try to find someone who can act. Her acting as eeeeevvvvvil Michael actual made this episode into a comedy instead of a serious episode.

I kid you not, everytime she tried to look menacing or evil or mean, I literally cracked up, she's that bad at it.

That execution scene where they kept zooming in on her face was hilariously bad.

 

[Blender]

Spoiler

God, how she got the lead role in this series is baffling. Did they do auditions, try to find someone who can act. Her acting as eeeeevvvvvil Michael actual made this episode into a comedy instead of a serious episode.

I kid you not, everytime she tried to look menacing or evil or mean, I literally cracked up, she's that bad at it.

That execution scene where they kept zooming in on her face was hilariously bad.

I mean, she was mediocre at best and terrible at worst in The Walking Dead, and I said that when they cast her as the lead. They should have been able to find a much better actress to be their lead than this.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

This is bad reboot Trek. I guess if a guy flunking out of the Academy can be named captain of the Federation Flagship then Tilly can be first officer of Discovery lol.

 

[Guardian17]

Watching the next episode from where I left off now (Unification III. Ugh, needless fanservice). I'm not bothering with spoilers because this episode is like 3 weeks old.

Ok, what the actual f***. Saru makes Tilly his first officer? Tilly? The f***ing ensign who was basically fresh out of the academy when the show started? That's profoundly stupid. There have to be dozens of more qualified and capable officers on the ship who could do the job better than goddamn Tilly, who even freaking admits she's in no way trained or prepared for such a role. But nerp, the writers have decided that Tilly is speshul and we want the audience to cheer and weep with joy that the bundle of giddy, immature neuroses should get a reward she in no way deserves. The fact that she is seemingly the only one that recognizes that this is an absolute nonsense decision is even worse.

Also the fact that we're leveraging Burnham's connection to the Vulcans is silly given that a big chunk of the first season was dedicated to Burnham's difficulty with the fact that the Vulcans and the Vulcan Science Academy had no care or reverence for her because she was just a human and if nothing else the Vulcans tend to be pretty smug/racist when it comes down to it. They wouldn't treat her as Spock's "sister", they would treat her as Sarek's adopted ward. Present due to circumstance but independent and separate from the actual, biological lineage of the family.

EDIT: And then the writers go there. On both counts. On one hand everyone gushes over Tilly getting the gig. EVEN THOUGH SHE DOESN'T f***ING DESERVE IT.

And on the other hand Burnham's mom says that the Vulcan president essentially says that Michael is potentially responsible for Spock becoming the character we know and love. Barf. If insisting that your special new character with a sudden backstory connection to prominent canonical characters is also strongly responsible for the elements of canon that fans love isn't a surefire sign of blatant mary-sueness, I don't know what is.

EDIT 2: Sorry, this just really bugs me. In TNG when Deanna got put in command for that one episode it was a) because she was the ranking officer on the bridge at the time even if she wasn't a command-path officer because rank matters. and b) everyone on the bridge was uneasy about her being in command because they recognized that someone being thrust into a command role with no training in that regard and no experience handling those situations was a terrible idea. If that episode treated the incident like Discovery has, everyone would've instead stopped to gush about how special Deanna is and how they can't wait to help her succeed because it doesn't matter if she's not qualified, prepared, or suited for the role, they just want to make everyone get all misty-eyed and fawning over cute characters being thrust into the limelight.

So that is from "Thine Own Self" where Troi is promoted to Commander and she had assumed a role in the command structure somewhere in season 6 or 7 I think, and the episode references her experience in "Disaster" where she was thrust into a command position and felt overwhelmed by it but by the end decided it was something she wanted to strive for.

I guess the worst part about Tilly is that the first officer is always shown to the officer in charge of personnel as well, and how is Tilly remotely qualified for that?

Yeah, I know. I just didn't feel like going into detail



She's cute and quirky and everyone's supposed to love her quirky cuteness. That apparently qualifies her.

I know people don't like when this is said, but it's really anti-Star Trek. The world of Star Trek is always presented as a brutal egalitarian meritocracy. Everyone has equality of opportunity, but positions are awarded on merit and if you can't cut it you won't ever get them. Having your main character be a Luke Skywalker chosen one and having other characters always being handed things they didn't earn really undermines one of the core concepts of the franchise. I had the same problem with Star Trek 2009 where a bunch of the main cast fluked into roles they did nothing to earn just because "it was meant to be".

This is bad reboot Trek. I guess if a guy flunking out of the Academy can be named captain of the Federation Flagship then Tilly can be first officer of Discovery lol.

For me, Tilly being named First Officer is the equivalent of the Happy Days episode where the Fonz jumped the shark.

Unfortunately, the writers on Discovery have been raised to believe that everyone is special and deserves a medal just for existing.

The writers have no clue as to the meaning of words like; merit, standards, worthiness, caliber, earn, warrant or justify.

 

[Blender]

For me, Tilly being named First Officer is the equivalent of the Happy Days episode where the Fonz jumped the shark.

Unfortunately, the writers on discovery have been raised to believe that everyone is special and deserves a medal just for existing.

The writers have no clue as to the meaning of words like; merit, standards, worthiness, caliber, earn, warrant or justify.

You'd never get a scene like this in Discovery, Picard, etc. In those series, Nog would be handed the position the first time he asked.

 

[peate]

Damn, that last episode had me shaking my head; what did I just watch?

 

[Ducks in a row]

Spoiler

So to save Empress Philippa Georgiou life they needed help from Guardian of Forever

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

That was all kinds of awful, thank god that arc is over

 

[The Nemesis]

Spoiler

View attachment 379321

So to save Empress Philippa Georgiou life they needed help from Guardian of Forever

"quickly, give the fans some squee-worthy fanservice before they realize we don't know what we're doing!"

 

[Jussi]

Damn it, I really liked Empress Philippa. Perfect combination of a true asshole and a badass.