Online Series: Star Trek: Discovery - III - Spock's Beard

[Jussi]

He was talking about Trek shows that were written before there were wikis to check this stuff and that made up for their mistakes with good scripts and good story arcs. I don't see how that makes Discovery look good.

You missed the point.

 

[Osprey]

You missed the point.

No, I got it. I was pointing out to you that you missed his point.

 

[Jussi]

No, I got it. I was pointing out to you that you missed his point.

Oh I got his point. But you missed mine.

 

[Osprey]

Oh I got his point. But you missed mine.

If your point was different than his point, then that proves that you weren't addressing his point, which was my point. If addressing his point wasn't your point, though, then this argument is pointless.

 

[peate]

I was under the impression after the second episode that this season might be different, better...Boy was I wrong. That last one with the space shoot 'em up was really amateurish. Looked more like a video game. Although I'm curious about Lt. Keyla Detmer, There's a story there somewhere.

Strangely enough, there's something there that keeps us watching.

 

[Tawnos]

I was under the impression after the second episode that this season might be different, better...Boy was I wrong. That last one with the space shoot 'em up was really amateurish. Looked more like a video game. Although I'm curious about Lt. Keyla Detmer, There's a story there somewhere.

Strangely enough, there's something there that keeps us watching.

Haha, well I'm firmly convinced that a lot of the dislike isn't real. The one thing about the last episode that bugged me was when they were like "we can send her out there and then claim she went rogue" but when Osira does the Bugs Bunny "this means war" bit, no one even tries to use that excuse. But it's really not important.

This thread was part of what pushed me to finally get on Reddit, and I'm much better off for it. I only come in here to make sure that the negativity is still so pervasive. It helps me to know that some things can truly be relied on. Not that there isn't negativity on Reddit, but plenty of positivity about the show as well.

 

[peate]

Haha, well I'm firmly convinced that a lot of the dislike isn't real. The one thing about the last episode that bugged me was when they were like "we can send her out there and then claim she went rogue" but when Osira does the Bugs Bunny "this means war" bit, no one even tries to use that excuse. But it's really not important.

This thread was part of what pushed me to finally get on Reddit, and I'm much better off for it. I only come in here to make sure that the negativity is still so pervasive. It helps me to know that some things can truly be relied on. Not that there isn't negativity on Reddit, but plenty of positivity about the show as well.

But, do they hockey?

 

[Tawnos]

But, do they hockey?

They do, but the quality of the hockey conversation on the boards is vastly superior (believe it or not!).

I know you were kidding, but decided to answer anyway

 

[Jussi]

If your point was different than his point, then that proves that you weren't addressing his point, which was my point. If addressing his point wasn't your point, though, then this argument is pointless.

I was addressing his point with my point.

 

[Blender]

We don't like to talk about weird/crazy stuff that happened in previous Trek shows that could possibly make Discovery seem good. Things like Trek science/tech creating an issue that ends being resolved by more Trek science/tech. No, we must complain about Discovery doing that.

Plenty of people complained about bad Treknobabble plots in Voyager and Enterprise especially, because the story and characters were often weak (especially at the start, as both got better later on). People forgive Dr. Crusher f***ing a ghost that lives in her grandmother's lamp because it's one ridiculous episode out of many all time great ones, and even in the bad episodes the acting and the character are usually still good. Discovery has rarely been able to say the same, and I'd say that strong character episodes have been very rare and have been the best episodes of the series.

 

[Osprey]

Strangely enough, there's something there that keeps us watching.

I think that it's the "Star Trek" name, the thought that bad Trek is better than no Trek and the hope that it'll get better.

Haha, well I'm firmly convinced that a lot of the dislike isn't real.

We're in the middle of the season and this thread just went three weeks without a post. Meanwhile, The Mandalorian is also in the middle of its season and its thread continues to get around 100 posts per week. Also, if you figure that more people have Disney+ than CBS All Access, consider that 1) Discovery is on Netflix outside of NA, and 2) the current torrent figures for the latest episode of Discovery are around 2,500 total seeders and peers, compared to 41,000 for the latest episode of The Mandalorian.

At this point, most of the people who dislike Discovery have stopped watching it, so the only ones still watching it are folks like you who like it and a few of us masochists. That may make it appear that the show is well liked, but from inside of a bubble that seems to be getting smaller and smaller (unlike The Mandalorian, which is getting more and more popular). I'm honestly glad that you found a place where people are more positive about the show, but I wouldn't convince yourself that a lot of the dislike that you no longer see isn't real.

 

[peate]

I think that it's the "Star Trek" name, the thought that bad Trek is better than no Trek and the hope that it'll get better.

That might be true for some. Personally, I never got into Enterprise; I saw maybe 3 episodes total.

 

[Osprey]

That might be true for some. Personally, I never got into Enterprise; I saw maybe 3 episodes total.

I didn't, either. I think that I saw the first episode of Enterprise and stopped watching. If there had been a running thread for it on a site that I regularly checked, though, I probably would've kept watching it just to be part of the discussion. Similarly, I'm watching Discovery mostly because there's a thread here. Without it or without it being updated, I'd likely stop watching.

 

[Ducks in a row]

I think that it's the "Star Trek" name, the thought that bad Trek is better than no Trek and the hope that it'll get better.



We're in the middle of the season and this thread just went three weeks without a post. Meanwhile, The Mandalorian is also in the middle of its season and its thread continues to get around 100 posts per week. Also, if you figure that more people have Disney+ than CBS All Access, consider that 1) Discovery is on Netflix outside of NA, and 2) the current torrent figures for the latest episode of Discovery are around 2,500 total seeders and leechers, compared to 41,000 for the latest episode of The Mandalorian.

At this point, most of the people who dislike Discovery have stopped watching it, so the only ones still watching it are folks like you who like it and a few of us masochists. That may make it appear that the show is well liked, but you're in a bubble that seems to be getting smaller and smaller (unlike The Mandalorian, which is getting more and more popular). I'm honestly happy for you that you found such a bubble, though. I just wouldn't get the illusion that it's any less distorted of a perspective than you see around here.

Only reason I watch new Trek even after seeing how bad it is so I can see what they do. I wish things would get better and start having actual good episodes but so far none are good none I would have any interest in rewatching over and over again. Its like watching a disaster take place where you don't want to look because of what its doing to people but you just cant help it and watch.

 

[Blender]

That might be true for some. Personally, I never got into Enterprise; I saw maybe 3 episodes total.

I didn't watch it when it aired, I stopped at episode 5 where Trip was impregnated by an alien and was growing a lump on his side. The ridiculousness of it was too much, and most of the characters were shallow and empty. I think I circled back to watch it when it was in season 3 and ended up catching up, and seasons 3 and 4 are vastly better.

 

[Tawnos]

We're in the middle of the season and this thread just went three weeks without a post. Meanwhile, The Mandalorian is also in the middle of its season and its thread continues to get around 100 posts per week. Also, if you figure that more people have Disney+ than CBS All Access, consider that 1) Discovery is on Netflix outside of NA, and 2) the current torrent figures for the latest episode of Discovery are around 2,500 total seeders and peers, compared to 41,000 for the latest episode of The Mandalorian.

At this point, most of the people who dislike Discovery have stopped watching it, so the only ones still watching it are folks like you who like it and a few of us masochists. That may make it appear that the show is well liked, but from inside of a bubble that seems to be getting smaller and smaller (unlike The Mandalorian, which is getting more and more popular). I'm honestly glad that you found a place where people are more positive about the show, but I wouldn't convince yourself that a lot of the dislike that you no longer see isn't real.

I never said there wasn't any negativity on Reddit. I said there was plenty of positivity. On balance, there's still probably more criticism than praise. Which gets to something you said. The reason I'm saying it's better there is that it's not really a bubble. It's a bubble in the sense that the Star Trek subreddit are all Star Trek fans, but there's a pretty wide range of opinions on there. Everything from people totally blown away by the series, to people who absolutely hate it, and everywhere in between. That includes people who have exactly the same complaints I see on here.

*THIS* place is a bubble, when it comes to this topic.

 

[Osprey]

I never said there wasn't any negativity on Reddit. I said there was plenty of positivity. On balance, there's still probably more criticism than praise. Which gets to something you said. The reason I'm saying it's better there is that it's not really a bubble. It's a bubble in the sense that the Star Trek subreddit are all Star Trek fans, but there's a pretty wide range of opinions on there. Everything from people totally blown away by the series, to people who absolutely hate it, and everywhere in between. That includes people who have exactly the same complaints I see on here.

*THIS* place is a bubble, when it comes to this topic.

You said that you're convinced that a lot of the dislike isn't real. I'm not sure why you said that when you admit that, on Reddit, there's probably more criticism than praise and there are people who absolutely hate the show and have the same complaints that you see here. Obviously, the dislike is very real and we here are not so different from some of the posters there. Now, if you're arguing that the like for the show is real and more evident on Reddit than here, then that's another matter and I won't argue with that. I suspect that that's probably what you're trying to say.

 

[Tawnos]

You said that you're convinced that a lot of the dislike isn't real. I'm not sure why you said that when you admit that, on Reddit, there's probably more criticism than praise and there are people who absolutely hate the show and have the same complaints that you see here. Obviously, the dislike is very real and we here are not so different from some of the posters there. Now, if you're arguing that the like for the show is real and more evident on Reddit than here, then that's another matter and I won't argue with that. I suspect that that's probably what you're trying to say.

I left out a word. I’m firmly convinced that the dislike of the show *here* isn’t real. And I do believe the same thing about some of the people elsewhere who claim not to enjoy it. I believe there are a lot of people who genuinely don’t like it, but at some point when you keep watching something that has to be actively sought out, it stops being believable whatever version of “I just keep watching hoping it’ll get better” or “I just watch to see how bad it is” gets thrown out there.

 

[Blender]

I left out a word. I’m firmly convinced that the dislike of the show *here* isn’t real.

I mean, I didn't stop watching it because I liked it too much. Same with Picard, I was enjoying it so much that I never watched more then 2 or 3 episodes.

 

[Tawnos]

I mean, I didn't stop watching it because I liked it too much. Same with Picard, I was enjoying it so much that I never watched more then 2 or 3 episodes.

You did stop though. Evidence that your dislike is at least real.

 

[Osprey]

I left out a word. I’m firmly convinced that the dislike of the show *here* isn’t real. And I do believe the same thing about some of the people elsewhere who claim not to enjoy it. I believe there are a lot of people who genuinely don’t like it, but at some point when you keep watching something that has to be actively sought out, it stops being believable whatever version of “I just keep watching hoping it’ll get better” or “I just watch to see how bad it is” gets thrown out there.

You did stop though. Evidence that your dislike is at least real.

Until a few days ago, I was three episodes behind on the series and The Nemesis hadn't even started the season yet. Isn't that enough evidence that our dislike is real and does that really sound to you like people who enjoy the show? Also, why would either of us post nothing but negative stuff about it if we were actually enjoying it? What do we gain from that? We'd gain much more by being positive. What you've convinced yourself of is entirely wrong and only fooling yourself into believing what you want to believe. I believe that it suits your impression of the show to imagine that everyone likes it and some are just in denial. How would you feel if one of us were to suggest that no one likes the show and some of you are just in denial? You probably wouldn't appreciate that. If you want us to take you seriously about your feelings about the show, you should take ours seriously, as well.

 

[Tawnos]

Until a few days ago, I was three episodes behind on the series and The Nemesis hadn't even started the season yet. Isn't that enough evidence that our dislike is real and does that really sound to you like people who enjoy the show? Also, why would either of us post nothing but negative stuff about it if we were actually enjoying it? What do we gain from that? We'd gain much more by being positive. What you've convinced yourself of is entirely wrong and only fooling yourself into believing what you want to believe. I believe that it suits your impression of the show to imagine that everyone likes it and some are just in denial. How would you feel if one of us were to suggest that no one likes the show and some of you are just in denial? You probably wouldn't appreciate that. If you want us to take you seriously about your feelings about the show, you should take ours seriously, as well.

I don’t believe everyone likes it and are just in denial. I believe that you and several others in this thread fit that description and that’s become the dominant aspect here, and here alone. So much so that it’s driven just about everyone else away. It exists elsewhere, but it’s dominant here.

You’ve never shown any inclination of having a real discussion about this show, you and others, so I don’t really care if you take my opinions about it seriously at all. Its why I stopped posting here. This is all just a mental exercise.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

I think the only episode of Discovery I really enjoyed so far was the New Eden episode. Anson Mount's Pike character really shone through and it felt most like a real Star Trek episode.

Biggest problem for me is there just aren't interesting characters and storylines. The storylines have been done (often times in previous Star Trek series even) and the characters are horribly written.

We can argue about continuity errors and plot holes but I'd overlook that (all the Trek shows have them) if they actually had stories that made me care about what's going on or who's involved. Overall just a forgettable show that I'd never want to re-watch.

 

[Osprey]

I don’t believe everyone likes it and are just in denial. I believe that you and several others in this thread fit that description and that’s become the dominant aspect here, and here alone. So much so that it’s driven just about everyone else away. It exists elsewhere, but it’s dominant here.

You’ve never shown any inclination of having a real discussion about this show, you and others, so I don’t really care if you take my opinions about it seriously at all. Its why I stopped posting here. This is all just a mental exercise.

I've never been interested in having a real discussion about a show that I actually like? That makes no sense.

I used to discuss the show seriously. You were around then. You ought to remember. I lost interest in discussing it seriously over time as I lost interest in the show, which makes a whole lot more sense. LeafalCrusader just mentioned the New Eden episode and I recall that I had positive things to say about that episode (which was probably my favorite Discovery episode, too), so it was after that and probably in the middle of Season 2, when we got Spock and the Red Angel, that I really started to check out.

Also, as it became clear that we were at opposite extremes, I stopped replying to you out of respect. We agreed on almost nothing and I didn't want to actively try to ruin your enjoyment of the show by arguing with you, so I mostly left you alone. Don't mistake that for not wanting a real discussion. In fact, if you had to leave to find the real discussion that you were after, instead of blaming me and a few others, maybe you should blame the fact that there weren't enough people here who liked the show as much as you.

The only one doing mental exercises is you. You're jumping through hoops to imagine that we secretly like the show so that you can feel better about it. Maybe that's part of the reason why you left, because we were bringing you down and you wanted to feel better about the show. I can respect that and don't blame you. That said, don't come back and suggest that we're being disingenuous because you have an axe to grind. I'm 100% genuine in my feelings about the show and why I continue to watch in spite of them, and I think that you probably know that.

 

[The Nemesis]

Haha, well I'm firmly convinced that a lot of the dislike isn't real. The one thing about the last episode that bugged me was when they were like "we can send her out there and then claim she went rogue" but when Osira does the Bugs Bunny "this means war" bit, no one even tries to use that excuse. But it's really not important.

This thread was part of what pushed me to finally get on Reddit, and I'm much better off for it. I only come in here to make sure that the negativity is still so pervasive. It helps me to know that some things can truly be relied on. Not that there isn't negativity on Reddit, but plenty of positivity about the show as well.

What a ridiculously condescending and arrogantly assumptive post. The idea that you've just up and decided that the dislike here isn't "real" and Reddit is inherently a superior fandom collective because people choose to like the show is ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is the presumption that all those evil Discovery haters are keeping people out of here. Because aside from yourself, who was at any point a significant discusser of the show and has departed because of the tone of this thread? Dating back to season 1 when discussion was far more active my memory is mostly of the same people that have remained the most active up until now. Me, Osprey, Blender, LeafalCrusader. johnjm22 used to post here but his posts tended to be critical so he likely wasn't driven away by the tone of the thread as much as it's possibly he just stopped watching. RobBrown4PM also used to post but he too was critical. The only posters I can think of that were more positive about the show were Cloned and Jussi, and neither of them were as frequent contributors to the thread even at the beginning. But ooooh no, all the evil, evil grinches who hate Star Trek scared them off because we demanded that anyone who posted in the thread make a blood sacrifice and chant "I hate Discovery and everything about it" to be able to post. right?

But less flippantly: Who are you to tell me whether my subjective opinion of a show is valid or not? Should I not then do the same and say your starry-eyed support of it is just mindless fawning fanboyism that franchises rely on? Shallow, bleating yes-fans who lap up everything that gets stamped with a favored name as if it's not just an acceptable piece of the legacy, but an actively beneficial one?

Of course I wouldn't do that because that's dumb. People can like what they do and dislike what they don't. The fact that you're trying to wrap up your opinion of the group on here in a neat little bow of "look at the haters just barking about the show to be negative because they can" is... insane. You say you come here just to bask in the constancy of the dislike but between that comment itself and the general tone of several others, it seems more like you come here to lord your fandom over the rest of us because liking the show automatically makes you a "better" fan in your eyes.

You want to know something that I'm sure will shock your preconceptions to the core? I like this season so far better than the previous 2. It's focused more on the ensemble of the Discovery crew. It's less wrapped up in Burnham and her savior-complex mary-sueness and constant need to have everyone validate how awesome she is. I still haven't loved some of the lazy writing choices and elements of some characters still bug me (mostly Tilly) but I'm coming around on at least several of the others (Detmer and the conn officer's (I'm not even going to risk trying to spell her name) partners-in-crime friendship is fun. Stammets is far less of an irredeemable dick than he was at the start. Adira looks potentially interesting in spite of my misgivings of how they've gone about the pseudo-Trill aspect of the character. Saru is recovering from what I felt was a damaging shift in his characterization when he "evolved" out of his fearful prey stage. Oded Fehr's Admiral guy is about as interesting as most bureaucratic admiralty characters tend to get. I even think I might not mind Book even if David Ajala is kind of playing the same sort of roguish ne'er-do-well that he has in previous roles like on Supergirl). I was ready to quit the show after episode 1 of the season and so far I don't regret sticking it out as far as I've watched (episode 5 I think? The one where Burnham gets chewed out for going off half-cocked on her own mission in defiance of the Admiral and Saru's orders. Finally). The show hasn't gotten up to the level where I'd put it on par with the other Treks except maybe TOS season 3 since that was mostly utter crap, but it is at least improving. But certainly this only shows that I'm being a mindless sheep who's only here to rag on the show so I can hang out with the cool kids, right?

You're more then welcome to disagree with my take, or Osprey's, or Blender's or anyone else's. But to dress it up the way you have in a seeming bid for superiority makes any attempt to pretend you ever wanted actual discussion or understanding quite disingenuous, insulting, and disrespectful. And therein lies a difference. Because while I might have rarely if ever agreed with your take on the show, at no point did I ever make an effort to denigrate you for holding a different opinion as you seemingly have to the rest of us here.