GDT: Stanley Cup playoffs

[Hale The Villain]

Come on, they had extremely generous expansion draft rules. Hard to say they weren't set up for success from the outset even if they still had to execute the draft well.

It's like competing in a shooting contest in basketball but one person has to shoot from 3 and the other person is standing at the free throw line. Yes, of course, you still have to make the shots but at the end of the day a good free throw shooter will make 80%+ while a good 3pt shooter will make around 40%. Everything that followed after that was built off the foundations of their expansion draft advantages.

Do you think they'd have the same inaugural roster and results if they had had the expansion draft rules the Senators did?

Obviously they had easier expansion draft rules than previous expansion teams like us. That goes without saying.

Gone are the days where a new franchise trying to develop a fanbase has to wallow in the basement for 5-10 years. Giving an expansion team a chance at making the post-season almost immediately is just smart business for the NHL.

People will pretend that the expansion rules are so favorable that Vegas becoming a contender immediately and maintaining that status for most of their existence was bound to happen, no matter what moves their management made. That's BS.

Seattle had the same expansion draft rules as Vegas and their moves weren't nearly as good. This is mostly because unlike Vegas, they didn't weaponize their cap space at all by taking on bad contracts in exchange for picks/prospects. Nor did they pick the players and then immediately deal them for picks to build a prospect pool.

Vegas took on Clarkson, Garrison, Grabovski, Thorburn, Stoner and Fleury (who people forget was struggling for the Pens at the time) and in exchange got a two 1sts, two 2nds, Karlsson and Theodore. Masterful use of their cap space.

They took the most valuable player from every team, no matter positional need. They took Methot, TVR, Emelin and Schlemko, despite taking more than enough D already, and flipped those guys immediately for two 2nds, a 3rd and a 5th. People wonder where all the picks/prospects came from that allowed Vegas to trade for Stone, Pacioretty and Eichel - it was McPhee and McCrimmon's excellent asset management that allowed them to do it.

Worked out a deal with Florida to take Marchessault and Smith instead of Petrovic, which was a bafflingly stupid move on Tallon's part. As was Minnesota giving up Tuch+Haula to keep Scandella. Dumb moves on their part but let's not pretend Vegas' management shouldn't get some credit for pulling off those deals.

People can pretend that all of this was handed to Vegas by the league, but it couldn't be further from the truth. Their great asset management and incredible pro-scouting is the reason they have experienced so much success in their short-time.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Vegas took on Clarkson, Garrison, Grabovski, Thorburn, Stoner and Fleury (who people forget was struggling for the Pens at the time) and in exchange got a two 1sts, two 2nds, Karlsson and Theodore. Masterful use of their cap space.

They took the most valuable player from every team, no matter positional need. They took Methot, TVR, Emelin and Schlemko, despite taking more than enough D already, and flipped those guys immediately for two 2nds, a 3rd and a 5th. People wonder where all the picks/prospects came from that allowed Vegas to trade for Stone, Pacioretty and Eichel - it was McPhee and McCrimmon's excellent asset management that allowed them to do it.

Worked out a deal with Florida to take Marchessault and Smith instead of Petrovic, which was a bafflingly stupid move on Tallon's part. As was Minnesota giving up Tuch+Haula to keep Scandella. Dumb moves on their part but let's not pretend Vegas' management shouldn't get some credit for pulling off those deals.

People can pretend that all of this was handed to Vegas by the league, but it couldn't be further from the truth. Their great asset management and incredible pro-scouting is the reason they have experienced so much success in their short-time.

You just made exactly the point that I made. If they had the same expansion rules as Ottawa did they would have never been able to land any of the guys who brought all the extra draft capital for them to spend.

Whether it's good business or not for the NHL to have generous expansion draft rules is besides the point. They got generous expansion draft rules. It literally created the foundation for them to build draft and asset capital that they could then use to parlay for pieces they coveted more highly. You've pointed out multiple instances where players that wouldn't have been available under old rules were available. It's pretty plain to see, under old expansion draft rules, they for sure would have ended up with some quality players but their rules allowed them to end up with many.

And that doesn't mean that it was handed to them. But to use my analogy again, if you put a decent shooter at the free throw line, they're probably going to make 80%+ of their shots. And so it shouldn't be such a surprise when you see them do that. Full credit to them for making their shots but it wouldn't have been the expected result if they were shooting from beyond the arc.

 

[Masked]

You just made exactly the point that I made. If they had the same expansion rules as Ottawa did they would have never been able to land any of the guys who brought all the extra draft capital for them to spend.

There's a huge chasm between "they had better expansion rules than Ottawa" and "they were gifted a championship team on a silver platter".

They built a Cup finalist on players that were available to every other team (except Seattle). They weren't getting other team's star players in the expansion draft. They have one player they drafted in their lineup. Their management deserves the success they've had by doing one of the best jobs in the league at building their roster.

Assen na yo!

 

[Hale The Villain]

You just made exactly the point that I made. If they had the same expansion rules as Ottawa did they would have never been able to land any of the guys who brought all the extra draft capital for them to spend.

Whether it's good business or not for the NHL to have generous expansion draft rules is besides the point. They got generous expansion draft rules. It literally created the foundation for them to build draft and asset capital that they could then use to parlay for pieces they coveted more highly. You've pointed out multiple instances where players that wouldn't have been available under old rules were available. It's pretty plain to see, under old expansion draft rules, they for sure would have ended up with some quality players but their rules allowed them to end up with many.

And that doesn't mean that it was handed to them. But to use my analogy again, if you put a decent shooter at the free throw line, they're probably going to make 80%+ of their shots. And so it shouldn't be such a surprise when you see them do that. Full credit to them for making their shots but it wouldn't have been the expected result if they were shooting from beyond the arc.

I don't see what Ottawa's worse expansion draft rules have to do with my argument that Vegas' management absolutely nailed their expansion draft. It's a non-sequitur.

Yes the rules changed. It makes sense that they changed. It was an incredibly stupid system to have teams start with absolutely nothing and have to suck for 5+ years to hopefully compete one day. That's no way to build a fanbase. I don't hold the changes to the expansion rules against Vegas, like you seem to be doing.

Almost every move Vegas' management group made during the expansion period has proven to be the right one. You compare their moves that of the Kraken 4 years later and it's obvious how well McPhee and McCrimmon did in comparison.

 

[Ice-Tray]

There's a huge chasm between "they had better expansion rules than Ottawa" and "they were gifted a championship team on a silver platter".

They built a Cup finalist on players that were available to every other team (except Seattle). They weren't getting other team's star players in the expansion draft. They have one player they drafted in their lineup. Their management deserves the success they've had by doing one of the best jobs in the league at building their roster.

Assen na yo!

Eh, not really.

They did a good job, but they had access to at least one top 4 defender, and/or a top 6 forward from virtually every team in the league based on protection numbers. That is a ton of quality assets to build a team with. No actual team has that kind of depth on their roster. Add in side deals to protect further players and you have the makings of an instant competitor. That of course was the point given the price of entry.

while they may not have started with a star, they started with the ability to run a team with at least 12 top six-ish forwards and 6 top 4ish defenders (more players than that obviously), and then make trades with those assets to better round out the roster. Not a given cup team, but a given playoff team.

Again, they both did good jobs with what they were given, but neither situation really compares to building a roster up from scratch based on savvy trades and drafting over a period of several seasons.

600+ million buys you a (re)build bypass these days!

 

[BankStreetParade]

There's a huge chasm between "they had better expansion rules than Ottawa" and "they were gifted a championship team on a silver platter".

They built a Cup finalist on players that were available to every other team (except Seattle). They weren't getting other team's star players in the expansion draft. They have one player they drafted in their lineup. Their management deserves the success they've had by doing one of the best jobs in the league at building their roster.

Assen na yo!

Cool. I didn't say that so I'm not sure what that has to do with me?

I don't see what Ottawa's worse expansion draft rules have to do with my argument that Vegas' management absolutely nailed their expansion draft. It's a non-sequitur.

Yes the rules changed. It makes sense that they changed. It was an incredibly stupid system to have teams start with absolutely nothing and have to suck for 5+ years to hopefully compete one day. That's no way to build a fanbase. I don't hold the changes to the expansion rules against Vegas, like you seem to be doing.

Almost every move Vegas' management group made during the expansion period has proven to be the right one. You compare their moves that of the Kraken 4 years later and it's obvious how well McPhee and McCrimmon did in comparison.

The point you're making is that they got there through determination, hard work, tactic and ingenuity. And I'm saying they got the most favourable expansion draft rules in NHL history and took advantage of it. They still had to do the work to make it happen but let's not pretend they didn't have an incredible advantage, through the construct of the draft rules, that allowed them to accumulate draft capital and assets unlike any team in history and parlay those trading chips into the players that they coveted.

The fact is, under the old expansion rules, most of those "trading chips" would have never been available to them. I'm not saying they would have ended up with no good players, I'm saying they wouldn't have had nearly as many as they did. And yes, some GMs totally shit the bed on their protection slots and the subsequent trades that added additional roster protections in favour of taking certain players/picks. But, again, that was a result of the expansion rules.

If they had to navigate expansion draft lists that protected 14 skaters and 2 goalies per team, what trade capital would they have acquired? There's a big difference between "they were really smart and calculated" and "they played their hand well".

And, to be clear, I'm not holding the rules against anyone. But lionizing these guys and what they accomplished, like they didn't get an incredible advantage...it's like you're being purposely obtuse or something. I don't really get it. Why can't we say they deserve half of the credit for what they've accomplished? As opposed to how you seem to be implying they deserve 100% of the credit.

 

[bicboi64]

The point you're making is that they got there through determination, hard work, tactic and ingenuity. And I'm saying they got the most favourable expansion draft rules in NHL history and took advantage of it. They still had to do the work to make it happen but let's not pretend they didn't have an incredible advantage, through the construct of the draft rules, that allowed them to accumulate draft capital and assets unlike any team in history and parlay those trading chips into the players that they coveted.

The fact is, under the old expansion rules, most of those "trading chips" would have never been available to them. I'm not saying they would have ended up with no good players, I'm saying they wouldn't have had nearly as many as they did. And yes, some GMs totally shit the bed on their protection slots and the subsequent trades that added additional roster protections in favour of taking certain players/picks. But, again, that was a result of the expansion rules.

If they had to navigate expansion draft lists that protected 14 skaters and 2 goalies per team, what trade capital would they have acquired? There's a big difference between "they were really smart and calculated" and "they played their hand well".

And, to be clear, I'm not holding the rules against anyone. But lionizing these guys and what they accomplished, like they didn't get an incredible advantage...it's like you're being purposely obtuse or something. I don't really get it. Why can't we say they deserve half of the credit for what they've accomplished? As opposed to how you seem to be implying they deserve 100% of the credit.

Seattle had the same rules as Vegas, why have they not been as successful as Vegas was in their first two seasons? Surely, Seattle would've had at least a division title since the rules were so favourable?

Vegas definitely had a favourable position, but from day 1, they've been one of the best-managed franchises in the league. Both the draft conditions and their management has played a role in them being successful, question is how much weight you give to either factor. I lean towards management since their contemporary hasn't been as successful (at least in the 2 seasons they've had).

 

[Hale The Villain]

Eh, not really.

They did a good job, but they had access to at least one top 4 defender, and/or a top 6 forward from virtually every team in the league based on protection numbers. That is a ton of quality assets to build a team with. No actual team has that kind of depth on their roster. Add in side deals to protect further players and you have the makings of an instant competitor. That of course was the point given the price of entry.

while they may not have started with a star, they started with the ability to run a team with at least 12 top six-ish forwards and 6 top 4ish defenders (more players than that obviously), and then make trades with those assets to better round out the roster. Not a given cup team, but a given playoff team.

Again, they both did good jobs with what they were given, but neither situation really compares to building a roster up from scratch based on savvy trades and drafting over a period of several seasons.

600+ million buys you a (re)build bypass these days!

That's just not true whatsoever.

Teams got to protect their best 7 forwards, so only teams with an exceptional forward group were at risk of losing a top 6 forward.

The only forwards they picked in expansion that were considered top 6 at the time were Marchessault, Perron and maybe Neal. Karlsson and Haula were considered 3rd liners when selected.

With teams only able to protect 3 D their options were better with that position, but it's still ridiculous to claim they could draft 5 top 4 D. Best D they got to pick were Methot, McNabb and Schmidt, and it's debatable whether any of them was thought of as a top 4 D at the time.

Seattle was in a similar position. Maybe got 2-4 forwards that could be labeled as top 6 and 2-3 D that could be considered top 4. That's hardly buying their way to contending status.

Difference between the two teams is that Vegas managed their assets way better and picked up a bunch of futures by taking on bad contracts, which has allowed them to make numerous acquisitions to improve the team and vault themselves to the top of the league.

 

[bicboi64]

Difference between the two teams is that Vegas managed their assets way better and picked up a bunch of futures by taking on bad contracts, which has allowed them to make numerous acquisitions to improve the team and vault themselves to the top of the league.

I feel like Francis was a bit too hopeful on what teams would offer and lost out on some deals. Still, he's bounced back nicely in being active in FA and trades.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I feel like Francis was a bit too hopeful on what teams would offer and lost out on some deals. Still, he's bounced back nicely in being active in FA and trades.

He basically saved his job in 2022 after a pretty bad expansion draft the year before.

Picked up Burakovsky, Bjorkstrand, Sprong, Tolvanen and Schultz for basically nothing in assets, which was important since he got very little in futures via expansion and couldn't afford to burn picks/prospects for immediate help.

Team was looking like a disaster before that. Now I expect they'll be a middling team for awhile.

Don't think they have enough in the pipeline to take the next step into contending status like Vegas, but then again I didn't expect them to make the playoffs this year, so who knows.

 

[Golden_Jet]

That's just not true whatsoever.

Teams got to protect their best 7 forwards, so only teams with an exceptional forward group were at risk of losing a top 6 forward.

The only forwards they picked in expansion that were considered top 6 at the time were Marchessault, Perron and maybe Neal. Karlsson and Haula were considered 3rd liners when selected.

With teams only able to protect 3 D their options were better with that position, but it's still ridiculous to claim they could draft 5 top 4 D. Best D they got to pick were Methot, McNabb and Schmidt, and it's debatable whether any of them was thought of as a top 4 D at the time.

Seattle was in a similar position. Maybe got 2-4 forwards that could be labeled as top 6 and 2-3 D that could be considered top 4. That's hardly buying their way to contending status.

Difference between the two teams is that Vegas managed their assets way better and picked up a bunch of futures by taking on bad contracts, which has allowed them to make numerous acquisitions to improve the team and vault themselves to the top of the league.

A couple of teams went the 4-4 protection route.
Beats the crap out of Ottawa, protection then was 9-5-2

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Interesting last couple pages. A lot of hate for Vegas.

I'll be cheering for Stone first and foremost, no question.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Interesting last couple pages. A lot of hate for Vegas.

I'll be cheering for Stone first and foremost, no question.

I’m cheering for Matthew. I want Brady to get that competitive seed grow in his gut.

Still feels like Vegas paid to jump the development queue, that’s why folks are annoyed I think. Especially teams like us with a cheap owner and a scorched earth rebuild where we could ill afford the slightest mistake along the way.

It’s sports entertainment so these kinds of things are fair game to form likes and dislikes in my opinion.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I’m cheering for Matthew. I want Brady to get that competitive seed grow in his gut.

Still feels like Vegas paid to jump the development queue, that’s why folks are annoyed I think. Especially teams like us with a cheap owner and a scorched earth rebuild where we could ill afford the slightest mistake along the way.

It’s sports entertainment so these kinds of things are fair game to form likes and dislikes in my opinion.

Ya that's fair, I can't fault anyone for their personal feelings. It's mostly subjective really and there was definitely a time I would have said the same about Vegas, but I'm over it I guess and don't even really care all that much either way. No tears will be shed lol.

 

[Micklebot]

That's just not true whatsoever.

Teams got to protect their best 7 forwards, so only teams with an exceptional forward group were at risk of losing a top 6 forward.

He didn't explain as clear as he could but he's right,

It was 7f and 3d, so expose one top 4 D, or you could protect 4f and 4d, so expose a top 6 forward, so every team either exposes a top 4 D or a top 6 f.

 

[JungleBeat]

Vegas has been elite since they entered the league. Solid front office over there. Can’t believe the Sens have nothing to show for trading Stone.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Going to be interesting. The radio said this morning the final doesn't start until Saturday? That's a really long layoff for Florida. It's so easy to lose that momentum with a layoff like that.

I would love to see Stone lift that Cup, but I kinda want to see what having a Cup in the family will do with Brady. Then again, with how things go with this team, things will go sideways for us somehow.

 

[Hale The Villain]

He didn't explain as clear as he could but he's right,

It was 7f and 3d, so expose one top 4 D, or you could protect 4f and 4d, so expose a top 6 forward, so every team either exposes a top 4 D or a top 6 f.

That assumes every team has 6 legit top 6 forwards and 4 legit top 4 D, which obviously isn't the case.

And I didn't even mention that young players with less than 3 years of pro experience were ineligible, leading to most young difference makers being ineligible and an even smaller talent pool.

 

[Masked]

That assumes every team has 6 legit top 6 forwards and 4 legit top 4 D, which obviously isn't the case.

And I didn't even mention that young players with less than 3 years of pro experience were ineligible, leading to most young difference makers being ineligible and an even smaller talent pool.

Not to mention free agents that were waiting until after the expansion draft to extend with their team.

Assen na yo!

 

[Micklebot]

That assumes every team has 6 legit top 6 forwards and 4 legit top 4 D, which obviously isn't the case.

This is kind a semantics. When you start defining "legit top 4 and 6 guys" as something other than guys playing in the top 6 or top 4, it gets really subjective. The reality is if the league isn't deep enough for all teams to have 4 top 4 D and 6 top 6 F in your mind, then you probably need to adjust your threshold for what constitutes a legit top 4 or 6 guy. Sure there will be the odd team that is stacked and some that have holes, but the reality is talent works on a bell curve, the gap between guys playing as a 4 vs a 5 d or a 6 vs a 7 f isn't as big as some like to pretend, opportunity matters a lot in how productive players are.

And I didn't even mention that young players with less than 3 years of pro experience were ineligible, leading to most young difference makers being ineligible and an even smaller talent pool.

You can go back at the protection lists, the vast majority of teams had one of more top 6/4 guys available, that's why some were making trades to protect them.

Yes, some young guys weren't eligible, but also some guys with NMC had to be protected even if they no longer were worth protecting, and some young players that weren't yet top 4/6 yet but had good potential were protected over current top 4/6 guys.

 

[maclean]

I will say this about Vegas. Maybe they did great job with what they had, sure, but our team got directly f***ed over as a result, by them taking Methot despite not even wanting him and then in the Stone trade. You can say our management's to blame all you want, I don't care, I'm not going to pat another team on the back for the W when it's our team that took the L.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I will say this about Vegas. Maybe they did great job with what they had, sure, but our team got directly f***ed over as a result, by them taking Methot despite not even wanting him and then in the Stone trade. You can say our management's to blame all you want, I don't care, I'm not going to pat another team on the back for the W when it's our team that took the L.

In hindsight, it's funny that Vegas just wanted a 2nd round pick to not pick Methot and we didn't do it. Considering how many 2nd round picks Dorion burned after that...

 

[DaveMatthew]

You can go back at the protection lists, the vast majority of teams had one of more top 6/4 guys available, that's why some were making trades to protect them.

Not really. This is the list of unprotected players: NHL expansion draft unprotected lists released

Not all that many top 6/4 guys as people remember. Some good players like MA Fleury, James Neal, Jonathan Marchessault, Sami Vatanen, Reilly Smith, Josh Manson, Ryan Strome, Dustin Brown, Marc Methot and Toby Enstrom and Troy Brouwer.

There were also "names" available (Jagr, Iginla, Gaborik, Michalek, Lupul) too, but at the end of their careers.

Vegas took a few of those guys and it was certainly a decent foundation, but not exactly the haul people are making it out to be. People are looking at what the players became vs. what they were at the time of the expansion draft.

Vegas definitely had a way, way, way better setup than Ottawa, Tampa, Atlanta, Minnesota and Columbus, but they weren't gifted anything. They just took the right mix of players, and have been incredibly aggressive since.

Everyone still thought, looking at their roster, that they'd be one of the worst teams in the league.

I think the success of Vegas and Seattle speaks much more to the increased parity of player skill in the league today than it does to the setup of expansion drafts.

I've heard former players say it many times. In the early 90's, the gulf between a 2nd liner and a 3rd liner or 4th liner was much, much, much bigger than it is today. Nowadays, there are tons of skilled players who just need an opportunity to play (see: William Karlsson, Chandler Stephenson, Jared McCann, Daniel Sprong, etc). And that's what we've seen with both the Golden Knights and Kraken.

 

[maclean]

In hindsight, it's funny that Vegas just wanted a 2nd round pick to not pick Methot and we didn't do it. Considering how many 2nd round picks Dorion burned after that...

Perhaps. But it's also kind of a dick bully move and I can't entirely blame Dorion for not wanting to bend over for it

 

[DaveMatthew]

Perhaps. But it's also kind of a dick bully move and I can't entirely blame Dorion for not wanting to bend over for it

It's no different than a team asking for a 2nd round pick to take a bad contract off your hands. And that happens all the time.

A GM's job is to build a good team, not be prideful.