GDT: Stanley Cup playoffs

[maclean]

It's no different than a team asking for a 2nd round pick to take a bad contract off your hands. And that happens all the time.

A GM's job is to build a good team, not be prideful.

I accept we don't need to see eye-to-eye on it, but I don't think it's at all the same. One is where you're actively looking to achieve something and can seek out the best option, the other you are, in a certain sense, being held hostage

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Not really. This is the list of unprotected players: NHL expansion draft unprotected lists released

Not all that many top 6/4 guys as people remember. Some good players like MA Fleury, James Neal, Jonathan Marchessault, Sami Vatanen, Reilly Smith, Josh Manson, Ryan Strome, Dustin Brown, Marc Methot and Toby Enstrom and Troy Brouwer.

There were also "names" available (Jagr, Iginla, Gaborik, Michalek, Lupul) too, but at the end of their careers.

Vegas took a few of those guys and it was certainly a decent foundation, but not exactly the haul people are making it out to be. People are looking at what the players became vs. what they were at the time of the expansion draft.

Vegas definitely had a way, way, way better setup than Ottawa, Tampa, Atlanta, Minnesota and Columbus, but they weren't gifted anything. They just took the right mix of players, and have been incredibly aggressive since.

Everyone still thought, looking at their roster, that they'd be one of the worst teams in the league.

You're missing the players and picks they got for not taking guys on the list though.

By taking Fleury, they got a second Rd pick.
By taking Grabovski they got first and second round picks
By taking Gusev, they got a 2nd and 4th pick, then traded Gusev for a 2nd and 3rd.
By taking Clarkson, they got another 1st and 2nd pick, along with William Karlsson.
Plus all the picks they got from trading players they didn't want (i.e Methot).

They skipped out on Dumba and scandella but got Tuch for that, who isn't on the list + Haula
Shea Theodore they got too, not on the list.

They had so much draft capital because of the expansion draft that they were able to use for Stone and Pacioretty. No teams before them had this kind of set up because of protection rules as well as the salary cap.

 

[DaveMatthew]

You're missing the players and picks they got for not taking guys on the list though.

By taking Fleury, they got a second Rd pick.
By taking Grabovski they got first and second round picks
By taking Gusev, they got a 2nd and 4th pick, then traded Gusev for a 2nd and 3rd.
By taking Clarkson, they got another 1st and 2nd pick, along with William Karlsson.
Plus all the picks they got from trading players they didn't want (i.e Methot).

They skipped out on Dumba and scandella but got Tuch for that, who isn't on the list + Haula
Shea Theodore they got too, not on the list.

They had so much draft capital because of the expansion draft that they were able to use for Stone and Pacioretty. No teams before them had this kind of set up because of protection rules as well as the salary cap.

Sure, but those were mistakes made by other teams. Vegas came out on the winning end of many trades, but they weren't gifted anything more than other teams. Minnesota didn't have to pick Dumba over Tuch. Anaheim didn't have to pick Manson over Theodore. Pittsburgh didn't have to pick Murray over Fleury.

McPhee and McCrimmon identified the right players and went after them. They deserve all the credit.

I mean, Pierre Dorion started a rebuild while having Erik Karlsson, Mark Stone, Matt Duchene and Mike Hoffman as trade chips. He's yet to make the playoffs.

Ken Holland and the Oilers lucked into winning the lottery during a season where the best player since Mario Lemieux was available. They've yet to make the finals.

Vegas had some things go their way. Just like every other team. They've just done a better job at turning it into winning than most.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Sure, but those were mistakes made by other teams. Vegas came out on the winning end of many trades, but they weren't gifted anything more than other teams. Minnesota didn't have to pick Dumba over Tuch. Anaheim didn't have to pick Manson over Theodore. Pittsburgh didn't have to pick Murray over Fleury.

McPhee and McCrimmon identified the right players and went after them. They deserve all the credit.

I mean, Pierre Dorion started a rebuild while having Erik Karlsson, Mark Stone, Matt Duchene and Mike Hoffman as trade chips. He's yet to make the playoffs.

Ken Holland and the Oilers lucked into winning the lottery during a season where the best player since Mario Lemieux was available. They've yet to make the finals.

Vegas had some things go their way. Just like every other team. They've just done a better job at turning it into winning than most.

Vegas is incredibly well managed but they were absolutely gifted the best conditions for an expansion draft and it's not even close. A team with $0 committed in the cap era, unlimited money to spend, with ownership willing to take on any garbage contract for assets in addition to the most advantageous protection rules for an expansion team.

My mention of guys like Tuch and Theodore is that you didn't list them as available players, and in Tuch's situation not even the players they were allowed to select. Even without making those agreements to choose players not on the list, coming out of the expansion draft with Fleury, Dumba, Manson, Methot, Weegar, Brayden McNabb, Colin Miller, even at that time, their back end would have been better than average.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Vegas is incredibly well managed but they were absolutely gifted the best conditions for an expansion draft and it's not even close. A team with $0 committed in the cap era, unlimited money to spend, with ownership willing to take on any garbage contract for assets in addition to the most advantageous protection rules for an expansion team.

My mention of guys like Tuch and Theodore is that you didn't list them as available players, and in Tuch's situation not even the players they were allowed to select. Even without making those agreements to choose players not on the list, coming out of the expansion draft with Fleury, Dumba, Manson, Methot, Weegar, Brayden McNabb, Colin Miller, even at that time, their back end would have been better than average.

Having the best conditions for an expansion draft compared to the 90's? Absolutely.

Being gifted a significant advantage over existing teams in 17/18? Absolutely not.

And even the defenseman you listed were not what they are now back then.

Prior to the expansion draft, Mackenzie Weegar had played a total of 3 NHL games. Colin Miller had played 100 games, averaging less the 16 minutes a night. McNabb had just come off a season where he played 15 minutes a night in LA, #7 on their team, less than Tom Gilbert.

Hell, even Alex Tuch. Yeah he was a mid-1st round pick, but he had 6 NHL games under his belt and had a fairly disappointing rookie AHL season (and didn't exactly light it up in his last NCAA season after his draft). He was no sure thing, but they identified him as someone they wanted. And they were right.

Same with Shea Theodore. He struggled in his rookie season with the Ducks, they wrote him off, and Vegas capitalized.

There's a lot of revisionist history going on when it comes to Vegas.

The reality is, if at the start of 17/18, looking at their rosters, you had asked people the question: which team will make the finals first, Ottawa or Vegas? 99% of people would have said Ottawa.

 

[Hale The Villain]

This is kind a semantics. When you start defining "legit top 4 and 6 guys" as something other than guys playing in the top 6 or top 4, it gets really subjective. The reality is if the league isn't deep enough for all teams to have 4 top 4 D and 6 top 6 F in your mind, then you probably need to adjust your threshold for what constitutes a legit top 4 or 6 guy. Sure there will be the odd team that is stacked and some that have holes, but the reality is talent works on a bell curve, the gap between guys playing as a 4 vs a 5 d or a 6 vs a 7 f isn't as big as some like to pretend, opportunity matters a lot in how productive players are.

You can go back at the protection lists, the vast majority of teams had one of more top 6/4 guys available, that's why some were making trades to protect them.

Yes, some young guys weren't eligible, but also some guys with NMC had to be protected even if they no longer were worth protecting, and some young players that weren't yet top 4/6 yet but had good potential were protected over current top 4/6 guys.

I don't think a defenseman playing top 4 minutes for Arizona is the same as a defenseman playing top 4 minutes on Boston.

Nor do I consider the 192nd best forward in the league a "top 6 forward" because technically they would be a top 6 forward if the top 192 forwards were split equally among all 32 teams.

My threshold for what determines whether someone is a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman is whether I could realistically expect to contend for the Stanley Cup with them playing that role.

Ultimately that's the goal isn't it?

 

[Hale The Villain]

You're missing the players and picks they got for not taking guys on the list though.

By taking Fleury, they got a second Rd pick.
By taking Grabovski they got first and second round picks
By taking Gusev, they got a 2nd and 4th pick, then traded Gusev for a 2nd and 3rd.
By taking Clarkson, they got another 1st and 2nd pick, along with William Karlsson.
Plus all the picks they got from trading players they didn't want (i.e Methot).

They skipped out on Dumba and scandella but got Tuch for that, who isn't on the list + Haula
Shea Theodore they got too, not on the list.

They had so much draft capital because of the expansion draft that they were able to use for Stone and Pacioretty. No teams before them had this kind of set up because of protection rules as well as the salary cap.

So what you're saying is Vegas creatively weaponized their cap space to take advantage of desperate cap-strapped teams?

Arizona has been doing that for years and has racked up a dozen high quality picks because of it.

Has little to do with expansion - that's just great asset management.

 

[Que]

Vegas’ ownership was bold and ambitious as well as incredibly wealthy. They created a mission statement to win a cup within the first 5 years and hired a management team to do so. They were also what some people might call, cut-throat.

Plus Vegas is a premium destination for athletes. Climate easy on the body, low state income tax, new arena with the best medical facilities in the league.

I hate them.

Go Cats.

 

[Masked]

For those bemoaning Pierre trading away draft picks, it should be noted that this year's Cup finalists have a total of one draft pick (Vegas) and three draft picks (Florida) in their lineups. And of Florida's draft picks in the lineup none were taken lower than 12th overall.

Is drafting and developing players an overrated method to build a Cup team these days with the cap and enforced parity?

Assen na yo!

 

[Micklebot]

I don't think a defenseman playing top 4 minutes for Arizona is the same as a defenseman playing top 4 minutes on Boston.

Nor do I consider the 192nd best forward in the league a "top 6 forward" because technically they would be a top 6 forward if the top 192 forwards were split equally among all 32 teams.

My threshold for what determines whether someone is a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman is whether I could realistically expect to contend for the Stanley Cup with them playing that role.

Ultimately that's the goal isn't it?

That's really arbitrary and frankly not particularly easy to pin down, a team with a loaded top 5 like Toronto or the Pens when they had guys like Dupuis play with Crosby can have a much worse player in their top 6,

 

[Beech]

For those bemoaning Pierre trading away draft picks, it should be noted that this year's Cup finalists have a total of one draft pick (Vegas) and three draft picks (Florida) in their lineups. And of Florida's draft picks in the lineup none were taken lower than 12th overall.

Is drafting and developing players an overrated method to build a Cup team these days with the cap and enforced parity?

Assen na yo!

and Vegas is a prime destination...to 25-35 yrear olds...It is heaven

Florida is a tax haven..sunshine, beaches and palm trees and to 19-35 year olds, right after Vegas as a hotspot.

Stone forced his way out and to Vegas
PeterAngelo, out to Vegas
Eichel to Vegas

Brady's brother to Florida
Goalie Bob to Florida

Life is much easier if you are the LA Lakers, NY Yankees, LA Dodgers, Vegas Golden knights, Florida Panthers and another 10-12 teams across the various leagues.

Draft and development becomes; state taxes and 100 mph on desert roads to LA or swamp roads to the Glades. Take away about 10 teams, the remaining 22 had better draft and develop.

 

[DaveMatthew]

That's really arbitrary and frankly not particularly easy to pin down, a team with a loaded top 5 like Toronto or the Pens when they had guys like Dupuis play with Crosby can have a much worse player in their top 6,

It should arbitrary. When people use the term "top-6 forward" or "top-4 defenseman", they're trying to use that term to try and describe the quality of a player. It's not meant to mean "X player played in the top 6 of this specific team".

Travis Hamonic was 4th in ice-time on this team for most of last year. Technically, he was a "top-4 defenseman".

But if Houston joined the league next year and selected him in the expansion, nobody would be saying, "wow how lucky they got to pick a top-4 defenseman".

 

[Micklebot]

It should arbitrary. When people use the term "top-6 forward" or "top-4 defenseman", they're trying to use that term to try and describe the quality of a player. It's not meant to mean "X player played in the top 6 of this specific team".

Travis Hamonic was 4th in ice-time on this team for most of last year. Technically, he was a "top-4 defenseman".

But if Houston joined the league next year and selected him in the expansion, nobody would be saying, "wow how lucky they got to pick a top-4 defenseman".

Ok, so Dupuis is a top 6 forward because he played on Crosby's line as a contender but Hamonic isn't a top 4 D because we missed the playoff?

No, it shouldn't be arbitrary, there should be a method to the madness, and ask Hale doesn't really cut it. It can be as simple as say the top 64 players for each position (LW, C, RW, RD, LD) for example would by definition be top 6/4 caliber. There's going to be some subjectivity in how you evaluate who are the top 64 in each position, but arbitrary is far from ideal.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Ok, so Dupuis is a top 6 forward because he played on Crosby's line as a contender but Hamonic isn't a top 4 D because we missed the playoff?

No, it shouldn't be arbitrary, there should be a method to the madness, and ask Hale doesn't really cut it. It can be as simple as say the top 64 players for each position (LW, C, RW, RD, LD) for example would by definition be top 6/4 caliber. There's going to be some subjectivity in how you evaluate who are the top 64 in each position, but arbitrary is far from ideal.

I wouldn't have ever considered Dupuis a "top-6 forward", despite him playing on a top line with Sidney Crosby. Just like I wouldn't consider Hamonic a top-4 defenseman even though he played that role here.

Gauging "top 64" by position would also be arbitrary. What metrics are you using? Points? Ice time?

Take JG Pageau. Most people would call him a 3rd liner. And he was 83rd in points amongst centers, so I guess that checks out. But in ice-time, he was 58th. Does that mean he's a 2nd liner? But wait, if you factor in just ES ice-time, he drops to 93rd, so maybe he actually is a 3rd liner?

Although if you just focus on ES ice-time, what would you consider Logan Couture? He was 74th in ES ice time, but 26th in total ice time and 31st in points. So is he a 1st liner? Or is he a bottom-6 PP specialist?

I know we live in a "deserve-to-win-o-meter" world where everyone wants hard numbers on a spreadsheet to be the truth, but that's not how it really works.

Another example: Nick Cousins is currently playing in the Panthers top 6. But nobody would describe him as a "top-6 player" if they signed him this summer.

 

[BondraTime]

Agreed on that definition of top 4-6, just because a guy plays in a top 4-6 role doesn’t make them top 4-6 players.

 

[JungleBeat]

People seem to argue the most pointless things in here now. Obviously just because a player is getting fed minutes doesn’t mean they are automatically a top 6 or top 4 player.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The worst playoffs I've ever watched

 

[Ice-Tray]

People seem to argue the most pointless things in here now. Obviously just because a player is getting fed minutes doesn’t mean they are automatically a top 6 or top 4 player.

Sure, but can you make a valid argument on how you can have fewer “top 6 forwards” than top 6 positions in the league?

Mick has the right of it, if you’re one of the top players by numbers, than you are a top 6 player…

 

[bicboi64]

Got my bottles of Haterade filled. Can't wait for Saturday

 

[Back in Black]

2 more freakin' days to go

I'm torn. I'd like to seee Florida win it, but also want Mark Stone to win it.

 

[Norris4Norris]

Don't hate me for posting this about basketball.

Seems like the NHL and NBA Finals are mirrored... again. Florida swept the Hurricanes whereas Vegas needed 6 games.

The Nuggets swept the Lakers, whereas the Heat took 7 games to beat the Celtics. The difference is Florida comes in as the 8 seed hot off a sweep and the 8 seed in the NBA just lost 3 of 4 games to barely make it into the finals.

I think the NHL Finals will be a close series. Vegas in 7. Denver in 5 games on the NBA side.

 

[5ive4Fighting]

Vegas’ ownership was bold and ambitious as well as incredibly wealthy. They created a mission statement to win a cup within the first 5 years and hired a management team to do so. They were also what some people might call, cut-throat.

Plus Vegas is a premium destination for athletes. Climate easy on the body, low state income tax, new arena with the best medical facilities in the league.

I hate them.

Go Cats.

I don't know about the climate. I was there mid-spring once, and I wanted to quietly die and have whatever puddle remained dribbled over a screaming cactus. Just filthy, ridiculous hot.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Don't hate me for posting this about basketball.

Seems like the NHL and NBA Finals are mirrored... again. Florida swept the Hurricanes whereas Vegas needed 6 games.

The Nuggets swept the Lakers, whereas the Heat took 7 games to beat the Celtics. The difference is Florida comes in as the 8 seed hot off a sweep and the 8 seed in the NBA just lost 3 of 4 games to barely make it into the finals.

I think the NHL Finals will be a close series. Vegas in 7. Denver in 5 games on the NBA side.

I'm picking Denver in 4. I hope I'm wrong, but their length is a matchup nightmare. MPJ is gonna feast again if he wants.

It seems crazy to suggest considering the Boston almost comeback, but I think Denver had a harder series and are clearly the better team of the two left.

And quite frankly, if Jokic and Murray are hitting some of the nonsense long distance flips they fired up in the Laker's series, it's already over.

 

[bicboi64]

I think the NHL Finals will be a close series. Vegas in 7. Denver in 5 games on the NBA side.

I need both series to go to 7 games. The only sports I actively follow are NBA, NHL, European Soccer and MMA. Soccer is going to be done after Champions league, MMA is too infrequent for me to be hyped, and NBA & NHL are all I can hold onto for entertainment lol

 

[Norris4Norris]

I'm picking Denver in 4. I hope I'm wrong, but their length is a matchup nightmare. MPJ is gonna feast again if he wants.

It seems crazy to suggest considering the Boston almost comeback, but I think Denver had a harder series and are clearly the better team of the two left.

And quite frankly, if Jokic and Murray are hitting some of the nonsense long distance flips they fired up in the Laker's series, it's already over.

Like you sad the length of Denver, the depth and just the way they gel. Jokic and Murray are an unreal tandem.

Plus with Jokic you could double team him or play zone defense and then he picks you apart. If you only put one guy on him he scores.

I need both series to go to 7 games. The only sports I actively follow are NBA, NHL, European Soccer and MMA. Soccer is going to be done after Champions league, MMA is too infrequent for me to be hyped, and NBA & NHL are all I can hold onto for entertainment lol

I feel the same way. I want 7 games with rest days! in both NHL and the NBA. Or I will have withdrawals. At least until the NFL starts next season.